Michael Pukas

Just be a careful with that statement... plates are not for beginner or intermediate level riders with "less" talent. They are for advanced/expert riders. It takes a lot "more" talent to ride a board with a plate than without. Does a plate make it easier to get to the pinnacle of edge hold? Yes, if you've already got the talent, the plate allows you to get better edge hold than before. But if you don't have the talent a plate won't make you a better rider. You have to be of a certian level already to get the added benefits a plate offers (and I'm only just there :p). I've noticed that the primary benefit of a plate is rider isolation from the bumps, irregularities, etc. on the snow. Calling it "comfort" can be a bit misleading I think, but I'll concede it's an appropriate term. I like to think of it as causing less upset to the rider. This aspect is HHUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEly apparent. Everything else about the board bending in it's natural arc, better edge hold, better performance of the board, etc, is all there, but its' secondary and not nearly as significant. Plates have a noticeable effect on perfect groom, even when you don't really need a plate you still notice the benefits, but on choppy irregular snow is where the plate's function is most noticeable. Maybe not a good analogy, but does a front suspension on a mountain bike allow the bike to perform better, or allow the rider to perform better due to less upset from the terrain under the bike? I suppose you can look at it from either perspective...

I lived in SLC for 6 months before moving to CO and got to ride Snowbord a few times - simply AWESOME!!! I can relate to the run you described. At the time I was riding an Avalanch Sanders 164 (the white one w/ the cool racing stripe and snub-nose) w/ Burton rat traps, and that thing did everything you've described. I like the sounds of what Mike T descibed for a modified Monster (for hardies, not softies). I've riden a couple of Monsters at the last 2 SES's and I love them - one of my favorite boards. Very versatile, fun, fast stable, easy to ride/carve, but not a top-end performance carver nor an off-piste chowder machine. Also look at the metal Axxis f/ Donek - more AM than the Monster I think, but maybe less of a carver.

A few of us here in CO have seen one (and a couple of us have ridden one, but not me, nor Snowman). What you are seeing is correct - there are foam blocks molded into the carbon fiber on the underside between the feet for stiffening and there is thinner carbon and no foam in the duckbill. The duckbill is more flexible.

Being only part designer, part engineer, and part builder, and not having any experience in actually making such a product, only a general understanding of materials and processes, all I can really say is that it is a design and construction challenge. It's easy to make a product flexible; it's easy to make a product rigid. To make a product flexible in one area and super-rigid in another is a serious feat of engineering and construction. When one part flexes, it has an impact on the rest of the piece. Where and how do you transition between what flexes and what's rigid? When the duckbill goes up, the middle wants to go down, hinging around a point between the two functions. If the middle doesn't want to flex down, that force has got to go some where, and possible failures may result. If the middle piece is allowed to flex some to offset possible failure, then the concept of a stable platform is compromised. Serious question - why is there so much interest in a plate with a duckbill that can modify the flex of the board? What's wrong with the flex of your board now? Is it because many who have ridden a plate say the nose of the board can be pressured more, and boards for plates need to be built with a stiffer nose, and that a duckbill can be a possible band-aid for older boards? Or is it that some guys are just tinkerers and are always looking for the next best thing (I know I am to some degree)? Hardbooters are a weird bunch... :p

Yes! No - many materials can deform under laod, but to be dampeners they have to rebound to the original shape when energy is released. Not so sure - not all foam is created equal. Some foam is designed to be rigid and not crush or bend (like the core of Fin's plate) and some is designed to crush under impact to abosrb the energy and dispate it - the the foam in our helmets. Shock absorbers in cars are dampening devices, and they are not made of foam. This is going in a different direction, but I think there are better materials that could be used as dampeners, just not sure what they are...

Yeah, if the duckbill touches the board regardless of the bumper type - rigid or impact absorbing - more feedback is going to be transfered to the rider, and that starts to defeat the intent of isolation. Last night on my way home f/ Fin's shop, all psyched-up on plate talk, I was telling the GF about plates and what they do. I realized that one of the major ways we perceive how fast we are going is through feedback of the board. We judge how fast we are going by what we feel under foot. With plates, especially more rigid plates, we feel less of what is happening under foot and therefore ride faster because we feel more comfortable. Feedback and isolation can be a double edged sword. Some people may start riding faster than their skill level allows, becasue they can't tell how fast they are going. And scary things may result.

Appropriate flex is the key phrase. This is the first time the characteristics of bumpers have been discussed here on BoL in realtion to plates. All other discussions of the duckbill interaction with the board have not considered this aspect and taken the perpsective that the duckbill itself is acting as a board flex modifier with the bumpers as a means of connecting board to duckbill. What Kessler said about inserts makes sense - we see his boards with 4x4 (actually it's 4x2 - at least on my board) or Hangle (and now additionally UPM), but rarely if ever with both. I have no doubt that Sean's boards with 4x4 (and it realyl a 4xx4) + UPM will not have failure issues due to too many holes. I'm not 100% sure what Sean ending up doing with the sitffness of the nose on his final production boards that are now available, but in spring testing we found that the nose needed to be strengthed to deal with the additional force a plate can provide. Several racers testing his protos found the same thing. We all liked the protos with a stiffer nose better with a plate than previous protos with the standard nose.

Now there's and interesting idea re: bumpers. Dampening means to stop/control/limit vibrations/oscillations. Adding a solid bumper between the board and duckbill will not, in my opinion, act as dampening; it will transfer the force to the plate, and the plate will bend. Or not. The plate, regardless of what you think it was designed for, is not designed to be a dampening device. A rigid bumper will stiffen the nose; a compresible bumper (with the correct material properties) would act a shock absorber, and add dampening. I think the term and concept of dampening has been misused around here lately; or at least the idea that a plate with a duckbill can add dampening. Dampening is not the same as reinforcing or adding stiffness to a board. Which is what a duckbill with a rigid bumper will do. I've only seen/heard of Apex plate racers using rigid bumpers - like the TD1 bumpers - but that's not to say they are not using compresible ones (And yeah I know TD1 bumpers come in various durometers and are not completely rigid, but for all practical purposes of this discussion, they are rigid and not compresible to a significant degree). Now this idea actually starts to make some sense... but I still think it's best to have a board that's deisgned to be used with a plate and leave it alone.

If it's not designed to touch the board, then I, too wanna know why it's there!

How are you pretty sure it was used for dampening? Why not reinforcing? Or changing the flex pattern of the nose? Or increasing nose pressure on a toe side turn? Yes, bumpers under the duckbill are intended to modify the board in some way. All I'm saying is that by adding bumpers one side effect is changing the point which the board can bend around. There's so much behind the scenes we don't know and only hear stories of. I've heard from several different poeple that JJA was constantly tweaking and altering his plate after every run. He obviously knows what he wants and how he likes his ride set-up. Why did he have bumpers - none of us know exactly, but my guess is his boards at that time were not designed specifically for use with a plate. A plate puts increased pressure on the nose of the board, as discussed elsewere, and he may have tried to compensate for it with the bumpers under the duckbill. Others have done it too, and plates have failed because of it. The duckbill was not deisgned to contact the board.

I debated a long time as to whether or not to get into the middle of this pissing match, and not necessarily to defend Snowman personally... but you guys need to re-read some of the other posts, particularly the one QQ linked to; quoted f/ Apex Insider - "The duckbill on the Apex plate is not intended to alter or interfere with the flex of the snowboard." The basic concept of a plate is to provide a (mostly) rigid platform on which the rider stands - isolation & stability. If you introduce a duckbill that is intended to flex, now you are asking the plate to do two opposite things - to flex and not to flex. Just as Scoob said originally - if the board pushes a duck bill up, then the center of the pate will bend down. If you allow the plate to flex underfoot to accept the defelction of the duckbill, then you are defeating the purpose of a stable platform. If the plate underfoot is rigid, then something's gotta give - and we've seen plate failures because of it - and more than one. There's no doubt the Canadian team, including JJA, went through numerous plate failures in training & racing. Just how many, we don't know, only Apex knows; we only hear stories. How many plates failures are you willing to go through for your hard earned cash due to design and manufacturing flaws? Once again, I'll say that if you add a bumper under a duck bill to contact the board, you are just changing the point around which the board can bend, and introducing a new force on the plate. There is still going to be a part of the board in front of that point that remains "unsupported" and could still possibly break. So, could a duck bill with a bumper(s) saved Blue's board? Hard to say without back-to back controlled testing... I will say probably not - sounds like a very hard crash (we're all grateful he wasn't injured).

What exactly is that top sheet, and how does affect board performance? Great rides!!!

BUMP - still available & looking for a good home. mpp

Get the best equipment you can afford. I'm not familiar with the 323's you have, but I'll venture a guess and say the 700's you're looking at are stiffer - they're about stiff as hardboots get these days. The 700's vary in stiffness with each version issued. Newer boots are always better than older boots as the plastic just degrades with time. I'd really only consider used boots if they are in good shape + that's what your budget allows. If they've got more than 100 days, and/or 5 years old - forget it!

That is a great vid. My favorite part is the end where he talks about all the things that have to be just right, and the camera guys says "I didn't know you were such a freak, dude".

great vid with awesome footage. Thanks for sharing!

I have that liner in my TX Comp tele boots. Only skied them a few tims, but it's a very good liner. I always thought I would like a tongue style liner better than a wrap style, but after skiing the TX Comp's w/ the Speed liner, I'm not sure - I did get a little shin and instep pain from them. But beyond that it's a great liner. The style of tongue vs wrap is really up to preference. It uses Ultralon foam, which is what Intuition and almost all other moldable liners use.

Just wanted to pass this on f/ Michelle - Deeluxe is no longer producing the red thermo-liner for sale. The sizes Bomber has in stock, as listed on the website, are the only ones left. There are still other options out there; The Dalbello's ($250), as QQ mentioned. Intuition ($180 for the PowerWrap). Garmont and Black Diamond ($160) also make their own thermo-liners that they put in their ski boots and are available for sale separately. Here's some info on the Surefoot Contoura X1 liner. This Surefoot's own liner that they've designed - the one they used previously was from another company. Looks good, but it's not cheap @ $400. If you consider this liner, or any injected liner, may last 2-4 times longer than a thermo-foam liner, it's prolly the same price or cheaper in the long run.

Bora - I don't think it's necessarily a liner volume issue - if you get any custom moldable liner, you'll prolly be better off than the stock liner. In my experience, those black Deelux liners are junk - they're too thin and soft, don't provide enough support, and break down very quickly. I had them in a pair of new Deelux boots I got a couple years ago and didn't like them at all. The new red ones are much better quality. Why do you think Deelux changed from the black ones? Loo - can you provide any more info on the X1 liner you mentioned? I too am looking for new liners - never had injected ones. Was thinking I'll prolly go w/ Intuition Power Wraps - almost every boot fitter/shop I talk to says they are a better way to go than injected liners - warmer and more comfortable. But I'm still intrigued by injected liners, if only cuz I've never had a pair. Cheers! mpp

It's all good, Bra! Ass

Haven't tried the Vist, but the new gen plates are like a car with a susepnsion vs a car without a suspension. The {little} bumps are smoothed out, but you're not disconnected from the snow or what the board is doing. I think perhaps one thing that happens is the plate smooths the ride out so much, that you relax and loose focus, thinking everything is going so well. That's happened to me - even on my Kessler w/out a plate - the board rides so smooth compared to old school glass I some times forget that I am the one drivign it, and it'll toss me. You still have to be on your game with a plate - maybe even more so because you've got the ability to go much faster over rougher terrain. It does feel different - it's up to each person to ride one and decide if they like it for their own riding. On either ice or hero snow, a plate makes everything better. For me - I'll be riding one all the time!

Thanks for the clarification AI - much appreciated! I had heard that Jasey Jay was fiddling with his plate after every run - for a long time I couldn't understand what he could be fiddling with. Then I naively assumed it must be the position and durometer of the bumpers, or something like that.

We're saying the same thing - the duckbill itself does not contact the board - it floats above the board. Some device needs to be installed between the duckbill and the board to engage the two, otherwise the board will not come in contact with the duckbill, unless bent to an extreme. And I agree with you - adding just one bumper will spread the load between two points rather than just one under the front pivot. But again, there's going to be a new point load at the bumper where the nose can fold around - a bit; and the plate now has an upward force applied to it that it may not be deisgned to accept, hence possible failure. So let's say you design a plate with a duckbill that is designed to flex - how much do you allow it to flex? Having multiple points for variable bumper placement is easy. Do you have different flexing duckbills to compensate for different board flexes? And do you then couple that with different stiffnesses between the feet for different rider preferences? Many many variable yet to be R&D'ed. I'm curious to see where this goes in the long run... Is there going to be one camp with duckbills and one without? Is there going to be one camp that likes ultra-stiff plates and one that likes plates with some flex? Wait 'till you see the final Bomber Boiler Plate! So sexy!!! And Sean's plate looks so sweet too - espeically with the blue anodized hardware!

I stand corrected - the plates that I'm familiar with are designed to not bend - but some bending will happen as it nearly impossile to make it completely rigid, and some degree of bending may be desired. In general they are not designed to bend with the upward force of the board. Don't know anything about the SGP yet... that's a big challenge to have a plate that does not bend between the feet but does bend in the duckbill.

Boards are designed to bend; plates are designed to not bend.