Snowboard time handicap vs. skiing, racing

[SunSurfer]

Just tell the skiers to do the course without poles and on one ski!

[Emdee406]

On 2/12/2019 at 7:23 PM, Atom Ant said:

I have some updates forthcoming.  That said, I am definitely not Justin, however he at least has an honest starting gate there complete with true grips, etc.   No chance he would have even come close there without that.

20% seems about right, honestly. 

Also worth noting that the stubbies allow him to lean over the gates. I’m guessing if they were the normal NASTAR GS Gates, he’d have been forced into a wider line, and at least 10% slower. 

A handicap is definitely needed when you take gate type into account. And as has been pointed out, the pitch of the start is make or break. 

We have a flat enough start at my mountain, that skiers can completely skate the first 2 gates. Racing them dual, they get ahead, then I start to gain as we are left with purely carving skills. 

[SunSurfer]

Not always make or break if you get behind at the start.

From a couple of years ago, I don't suck quite so much in the first few gates at Snowmass now. 

[Topboost]

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 10:28 AM, Atom Ant said:

Ok all, 

So believe it our not, this saga has continued over the summer.  Since all basic logic was being questioned heavily, as I mention above, I decided to break out the ol' grade school math equations and present an analysis to EICSL to better illustrate the unfair set up of making a snowboarder race skiers in a ski-gate GS course with no adjustments.  This isn't perfect, I don't pretend it is, it is meant as illustrative of the overall point.  The high level walkthrough:

• The skier and snowboarder are on the same course, taking the same line, and traveling the same speed.  Thus, all variables are held neutral to time aside from the distance a boarder needs to be from the gate itself relative to a skier (so by calculating the difference between the two, we can get an idea of extra distance traveled).  Percent extra distance traveled vs. skier = percent slower time under these controlled conditions.
• I chose a 68-inch skier and snowboarder, and assumed 45* of lean for all gates.  I calculated the distance from this from the gate.  
• As skiers "crash" gates with their body, I assumed a 2-inch overlap of skier and gate, while for the snowboarder I assumed a 1-foot "buffer" as we cannot intersect gates as skiers can unless we have exceptional health insurance.    So there is a 14-inch difference in distance to gate.  Again, trying to keep things relatively simple here.
• I calculated the difference in ellipse this 14-inch gap creates, and using a pretend course of 850 vertical drop (which is the Attitash Course, by the way) over 20-gates, I calculated the snowboarder rides an extra 9%, roughly, relative to the skier.  So he/she should be 9% slower all else being equal.

As we all know, 9% disadvantage in a race is massive.  This of course does not account for start-related differences (EICSL has perhaps 8-inch starting blocks for me to launch off, and flat starts the skiers skate).  It doesn't account for the "slow snow" I have to ride given the extra distance I need to keep from the gates, or that I have to intersect the ruts differently--"fighting them" as opposed to riding them.  It doesn't account for the aerodynamic differences as skiers can tuck more efficiently,  grip to course with two edges vs. one, and so on...  That easily gets us to the NASTAR handicap discount of 20%, arguably more for EICSL as the starting areas for NASTAR are generally better (sometimes yes, sometimes no) and the courses are more standardized relative to EICSL.  

What I heard back (after they YouTubed a few snowboard GS runs):

• "Speed boards" as they refer to them, where the rider "faces forward" do not drive as much lean over from the rider to turn.  Therefore the above analysis does not relate to "speed board" riders... the implication is that "speed board" riders are similar to skiers in terms of how close we can get to a ski-gate.
• Snowboarders don't lean over as "when their back is to the gate".  So we can get closer to the gate on heelside turns.  Again, no difference vs. a skier.
• I was also told skiers can angulate the same as a snowboarder (even seen an EC turn from a skier?)
• They claim skiers hitting gates slows them down, and so they are trained to not do this.  Bullshit.  Ever seen any skier in the parallel races?  They hit those gates like their holding a football.  Thus the overlap assumption shouldn't be a basis for a discount calculation.  
• "My calculations started at 6%, plus some of my points might bring down your discount percentage – if we continued."  This is the portion of the response that irks me the most: that 6% is fair, and that "if we continued" that my entire argument would unravel.  There is a pomposity to this I cannot wrap my head around.  

At it core, EICSL is effectively stating that even when adjusted for differences in the sport, snowboarders are slower than skiers and not as competitive as racers.  Period.  Control for all differences--we will still beat you because you are of lesser talent and capability.  Skiers and thus superior.

I am not entirely sure where to do here; if anywhere at all.  

 

I need me one of those "Speed Boards"! 

[ursle]

On 10/7/2019 at 10:28 AM, Atom Ant said:

Ok all, 

At it core, EICSL is effectively stating that even when adjusted for differences in the sport, snowboarders are slower than skiers and not as competitive as racers.  Period.  Control for all differences--we will still beat you because you are of lesser talent and capability.  Skiers and thus superior.

I am not entirely sure where to do here; if anywhere at all.  

 

Quote

Weird, this is my post, yet it's marked as a quote from Atom Ant.

One thing not mentioned, Skiers are faster because they can load up their outer ski and step off it, rebound, every turn the skier is accelerating, snowboarders can feel rebound, but not harness it as effectively.

Rebound is the only advantage skiers have, well after possibly a pole stroke or two getting up to speed.

Talent and capability aren't the issue both skiers and snowboarders are talented and capable, it's physics.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by ursle