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Wide Topic: Gear, Style, EC...


Guest Ken D
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Hey folks,

About 4 years ago (I think) Sean at Donek built me a 180cm board, kinda twin tip with a stiff core at 23.5cm wide. Through the years of riding alpine I found that that width and length opened up the sport for me tremendously. Tom P, has that board now and I think he digs it also. I have ridden alot of alpine boards and it was still my favorite. It would carve as hard as my big old protons and the tighter radius made it all mountain friendly NOT to mention the waist width which didn't slow me down one little bit.

Variety makes people perform on what they need. I ain't no engineer but there is no perfect equation. The same problem in surfing. Shortboarders hate longboarders and vice versa, for the most part. Guys have pissy discussions over style right or wrong, board length, thickness of rails, fins and then there is just the pure aggro mentality. Jerry Lopez and Sean Thompson were some of the most incredible tube riders in history. There BOARDS AND STYLE look alot different from Kelly Slater and Rob Machado. Does that mean they suck? From what I know they still dig those old shapes too. There are also alot of surfers today experimenting with retro boards now, including me.

I see the EC guys in the videos. Fantastic. Not racing, but I'm not either. Waisting body energy and movement? People used to call that style, not sure why its considered bad. It's been stated their boards are softer? I wish I could rail a soft board while dragging ass heel to toe. 21 centimeters wide??? I had numerous people tell me in a liftline "That board is 23.5cm wide?!?!??! Way too clunky!" That kind of stuff stops people from exploring.

Bash developing thoughts and you might as well start making your own equipment in a shack. Ride what you ride.

ps: God I'm boring.

Ken D

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What radius does it have?

I'm looking for a new board myself, but i'm doubtfull of the sidecut.

The Swoard has a radius of 13.3m but the radius is a lot tighter when you EC it. But 9m on the average SL boards seems thight to me

So what is a nice radius to just carve with in a medium pace on all sorts of slopes.....

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Ken, that sounds like a very cool board to have. Is the nose more freeride style or alpine?

The first thing I noticed first about the EC videos is that there isn't a lot of wasted motion at all, the riders don't make a lot of up/down or rotational movements like in the videos of CMC (for example), who rides with lots of wild movements.

Hating other styles: I don't see much of that. Maybe it's an internet thing. The only grief I ever get from softbooters, for example, is when they tell me that they think my equipment would be too specific to carving and not much good for anything else. I think it's great that the Swoard guys are addressing this.

It didn't seem like the Swoard review was knocking the EC style, I think the reviewer just told us how he felt about the board's suitability for his own style. I thought he was kinda rude about it, but it was a pretty well done review with a lot of real meat to it.

Edit: Maybe I shouldn't call EC a "Style" since it's a specific kind of turn and not really a riding style.

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Indeed, I love that board. I was very lucky to have picked it up from Ken -- especially as it was my first board! I've ridden it 8-9 times in the past two weeks and it's only getting better. I rode it this morning, as a matter of fact, and it did really well in 8" of fresh powder. I set it up with Snopro Race bindings, 45/40 angles, so it's soft but responsive, and have been having a blast practicing EC (still a long way to go), the angulated "bomber" style, and started carving switch last week. I also have a Coiler PRII, a great board, but so far I've found the Donek to be a lot more versatile for the kinds of things that I like to do :)

tom.

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just curious...a lot of times people hit "new thread" insted of "reply"

I kinda figuerd you might have meant to hit this in the EC thread.

that board sounds interesting. Bryan Sutherland has one similiar...I think it was swt's...

again, nice pics in the avatar, both of ya

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I be really interested to know the specs on your new board.:biggthump

As for surfboard design, I spent most of the 90`s riding the "slater" styled boards, my riding regressed the whole time. I then stepped on to Geoff Mccoy`s "Nuggets", a throw back to 80`s ideas with new rockers, my riding leapt forwards in leaps and bounds. So much so that all my friends now ride the same boards.

I`m contemplating buying my first dedicated alpine board and I have always been a black sheep when it comes to equipment, I don`t care what anyone thinks.

It`s only important to get the most out of my limited skill.:o

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  • 2 months later...

Yikes! I never thought the time would come, but I decided to sell this board.

Although it's been great fun riding it, it hasn't seen the light of day since I picked up a 4WD and a Powstick. This was my all-around board, especially on powder days and it did the job well. I found the 4WD to be a bit stiffer and have been riding that board almost exclusively.

It's late in the season for selling boards, so I'll probably hang onto it until Nov/Dec timeframe. But if anyone would be interested in it, shoot me an email and I'm happy to provide more details.

tom.

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Hi

I have few insides about EC, Fat boards and side cut.

I started to carve mostly in Alps in mid 90 together with my brother.

I did not know about EC guys but the goal was to go fast and low.

We did ride smaller radius boards like 8 m. It is easier to pick up carving on smaller cut board.

Our boards were shorter and medium narrow, definitely slalom style.

We did figure out that on steepest slopes we could ride much lower and much more dynamic.

I found out about EC three years ago I realize we didn’t go as low as EC guys we where lacking 10 to 20 % especially on toweside.

Recently on ECES (It was great) I had opportunity to try Swoard (I bought it from Fin shortly after).

swoard 175 soft flex

Advantages:

Extra width:

Lower angulations on your boots more pressure on front edge – lower frontsite.

All around board, good for slush, powder and even jumps in the park.

Big side cut 13 m:

You can sustain lower EC position longer.

Disadvantages:

It does not perform too well on ice maybe it is a softness or lower feet angles or width. It was tested on prime east cost ice with good tuning.

And it was not too good.

Board is not very jumpy (just a bigger board) it takes more time to switch edges.

You need more space for high speeds and big radius.

Over all it works very well for my style. It is awesome from 8:30 am to 11 am (if you know what I mean) it is fun in softer, powder days and slash.

And it complements well my slalom Volkle renn tiger 163 (R=8 m) which I use for ice/bumps and crowded mountain condition.

I think that wider boards it is a good step in carving evolution.

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I think some of my comments have been misconstrued as bashing EC. Ride however you want, if you're having fun that's all that counts. My only problem with EC as a technique is when (all too often) beginner carvers get a hold of one of their (awesome) videos and make EC their holy grail. It simply teaches a lot of bad habits, like reaching for the snow and swiveling at the waist, which are both, yes, wasted motion, for a newbie.

Learn how to carve first. Learn about angulation, inclination, cross-over, cross-under, cross-through, learn how to carve the downhill edge, and learn how to carve from the ground up, with your ankles. After you master this stuff, THEN you can try to EC.

(speaking generally here, by "you" I don't mean Ken D)

Or go ahead, try to EC from day one. You'll spend years with your ass in the air, groping for the snow with your hands and wondering why you can't carve that well. Then someone will point out that you've got your ass in the air and your hands on the ground, and you'll spend more years trying to fix it.

Suit yourself.

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Disadvantages:

It does not perform too well on ice maybe it is a softness or lower feet angles or width. It was tested on prime east cost ice with good tuning.

And it was not too good.

In a previous thread, Tex1230 says this about your skills on ice

"I must now say that EC style carving may look cool on videos, but I have never seen it before in person. I don't care what anyone else says about touching snow being bad form, sliding your body being not true carving etc...

That boy can carve! he leaves deeper cleaner trenches on the snow than most "bobmber style" carvers I've seen..and he can do it on crap ungroomed ice that left me & my GS board chattering and skidding down the hill."

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=10914

According to the thread, you were riding the Swoard that day. So what's the truth? Is the Swoard really not good on ice? Was Tex1230 exaggerating the icyness of the day?

I've got a custom Donek with a 20.6cm waist and 13m sidecut. It works great for EC, bumpy/chopped up snow, and it's manageable in the half-pipe. On icy, blue runs it also held a good edge. On icy, black diamond runs, it was too hard to carve and control my speed -I'm pretty sure that was due to the large sidecut radius. On icy, steep runs, I prefer a snowboard with a smaller sidecut radius (8 to 10m) to make smaller carves at slower speeds. Straightlining an icy, steep run is not my idea of fun.

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I hope nobody's gonna mind some polish here:)

Tomek, nie wiedzialem ze jestes polakiem:)) hehe widzialem wielokrotnie Twoje posty tutaj:) zajebiscie:) Tak swoja droga fajna ta Twoja deseczka (widzialem filmiki).

Mozemy zrobic male PES jak bede w CO po 17 kwietnia:).... na tydzien wpadamy do summit county:)

TG, nagle robi sie nas wiecej:)) hehe

pozdro

-mat

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Moze czas na nowy "thread". Napisz prosze jak bedziecie wiedziec gdzie jezdzicie, mieszkam o kilka godzin autem od Summit -- bardzo chetnie bym sie z Wami spotkal i pojezdzil. Milo wiedziec ze filmiki sie podobaly. Pozdrawiam,

tomek.

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I think some of my comments have been misconstrued as bashing EC.

Heh, a few years ago your posts really read like you were very anti-EC (though it's obviously hard to hear people's tone through text), but not so much anymore. :) I probably come off as being super pro-EC, even though I don't think I am - I'm just anti-anti-EC, and personally I don't even ride that way anyways.

I agree, if a newbie comes out and doesn't really know what's going on and they try to EC, they are liable to try to get their hands on the snow and end up with their butt up in the air, and obviously that is the exact opposite of how you want to be angulating and you'll be skidding all over the place.

Similarly, I think if you were a newbie and didn't know what you were doing and were going in with just pictures + descriptions of bomber style, you are liable to attempt to try to get into that perfect "super compressed, angulated position" and sit there frozen as you carve around the turn. I think Marco Olm called it "Park and Ride". "Don't park and ride!" he says ;) I see lots of intermediate riders riding very, very stiff that way.

My first two years of riding were an attempt to crank around in that perfect bomber position, and then a clumsy switch to the other edge, and then find that perfect position again for the next turn, etc.. It was only after I really tried to incorporate the fluidity and looseness of EC in all my joints that my riding level jumped up from the plateau it was on to where I could deal with bumpier, choppier snow, narrower runs, steeper terrain, etc..

I still think the best way to do it is study everybody else who can do whatever they do well, try it out, and keep the parts that work.

I do, think, however, that being a newbie and being stuck in a static, bomber style pose is probably better than breaking at the waist all the time.

But hey, didn't Tom ressurrect this thread from the dead to sell his board?

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But hey, didn't Tom ressurrect this thread from the dead to sell his board?

Thanks Ken :) Yes, I did, it generated some interest, and thanks to it I just met a few other Polish carvers, with a possible Polish Expression Session in Summit in a few weeks!

By the way, there's an interesting debate on the extremecarving.com forum about what it means to EC, etc. I must admit that at first it was the EC videos that got me stoked to try this sport, and then I saw that versatility is the name of the game, so now I want to ride well in a lot of different styles. And of course I'm still working on the EC too. It's all good.

tom.

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I hope nobody's gonna mind some polish here:)

Tomek, nie wiedzialem ze jestes polakiem:)) hehe widzialem wielokrotnie Twoje posty tutaj:) zajebiscie:) Tak swoja droga fajna ta Twoja deseczka (widzialem filmiki).

Mozemy zrobic male PES jak bede w CO po 17 kwietnia:).... na tydzien wpadamy do summit county:)

TG, nagle robi sie nas wiecej:)) hehe

pozdro

-mat

Moze czas na nowy "thread". Napisz prosze jak bedziecie wiedziec gdzie jezdzicie, mieszkam o kilka godzin autem od Summit -- bardzo chetnie bym sie z Wami spotkal i pojezdzil. Milo wiedziec ze filmiki sie podobaly. Pozdrawiam,

Ok so it took me 15 minutes to read through and make some sense of those. I guess I should have mentioned I'm only verbally fluent ;) Nice to meet you guys.

Sorry for the thread jack peeps.

~TG

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quote:

Learn how to carve first. Learn about angulation, inclination, cross-over, cross-under, cross-through, learn how to carve the downhill edge, and learn how to carve from the ground up, with your ankles. After you master this stuff, THEN you can try to EC.

Jack You are absolutly right, without proper solid edge in the snow it would never work.They need the cover the basic first.

It took me two sesons from my first day in snowboard to figure out how to ride proper eadge on blue slopes (i learn on my own)

And next seson to get half way to EC. And it has been a lot of sesons since.

And i am sill learning.

Interesting think is that EC is sort of natural style for me, i developed it on my own and i feel comfortable with.

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In a previous thread, Tex1230 says this about your skills on ice

"I must now say that EC style carving may look cool on videos, but I have never seen it before in person. I don't care what anyone else says about touching snow being bad form, sliding your body being not true carving etc...

That boy can carve! he leaves deeper cleaner trenches on the snow than most "bobmber style" carvers I've seen..and he can do it on crap ungroomed ice that left me & my GS board chattering and skidding down the hill."

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=10914

According to the thread, you were riding the Swoard that day. So what's the truth? Is the Swoard really not good on ice? Was Tex1230 exaggerating the icyness of the day?

I've got a custom Donek with a 20.6cm waist and 13m sidecut. It works great for EC, bumpy/chopped up snow, and it's manageable in the half-pipe. On icy, blue runs it also held a good edge. On icy, black diamond runs, it was too hard to carve and control my speed -I'm pretty sure that was due to the large sidecut radius. On icy, steep runs, I prefer a snowboard with a smaller sidecut radius (8 to 10m) to make smaller carves at slower speeds. Straightlining an icy, steep run is not my idea of fun.

condition on that day was ice that was giving away and melting in few spots.

Sort of bumpy as well. Not groomed

I did as well as i could but Swoard would not be my first choice for this condition (i left my volkle renn tiger in the car )

I have to say my edges were freashly sharpen but overall it is not good ice board. Swoard is even wider then your donek around 23 cm. I prefer smaller cut for icy/bumpy and steeps.

Przemek

Przemek

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