Toeside Turn Help?

[Ginsu]

So I finally got out on the snow on my new TD2's and in my Susuka boots on my Super174..

I set up the bindings at 55deg front and rear and had the cant at 0-front and 3-rear. I think the boots were set at 5 on their forward lean adjustment. My stance on the board is set slightly back and wide.

My problem was initiating toeside turns. It seemed unless I really dipped my rear knee way down I couldn't initiate. Now it's been 4yrs since I got to ride hard boots so I don't remember how I used to have it all setup or the feeling of it either. So it could all be setup fine and it's just the form of my body and function of my brain that's wrong.

The conditions may also have been the whole problem as it was heavy wet moguled powder in most places and very little to no groomed runs. As anyone at Mt Bachelor on Sunday can attest too. Not to mention the high winds and the white out conditions in the morning.

I do know though that 3 weeks ago when I rented a soft setup and rode I didn't have the same problem. I had the bindings set at 45deg front and rear on that board. I did fine initiating heel and toe turns.

So the question here is what should I change if anything? Should I try again on some groomed runs or does something sound out of place to anyone off the bat here?

Thanks All.

[philfell]

Be a little more specific about your stance. You saying "set slightly back and wide" dosen't really tell me much.

[Thor VonRippington]

Ditto... are you using any canting?

[Mike T]

Ginsu, it was great to meet you on Sunday even if we didn't get to make any turns together. I hope you can make it to OES - and I'm sure I'll find my way up to TLine sometime in the late spring or early summer.

In any case: I find that making toeside turns in a 50+ angle stance can be frustratingly tricky in the conditions we had on Sunday - heavy, deep and tracked out. Edging hard as if on piste gets you thrown over the handlebars. I try to remember some of the SnowPerformance lessons which are very helpful:

Start the turn from the bottom up - ride "6" shorter than I am" by maintaiing ankle/knee/hip flexion and start the toeside turn by pointing toes. I never thought much about using my feet until that camp and yes, it's a good thing to think about when carving but even more important to think about when in softer snow.

If you are at Bachelor again in similar conditions let's go rip OB and NW together and we can encourage each other to do good toesides!

[surfinsmiley]

Ginsu- I`m a complete newbie to hardboots and just found that by changing my angles back to really low, 36/30, it suddenly all started happening for me.

I currently run 30/21 on my softies.

Yes, drag became a problem a few times but at least it let my body start to understand what was going on. I also struggled in the crud on my first day but on new years day it was perfect groomer conditions and it all came together with one giant "click.":biggthump

[Ginsu]

MikeT - It was good to meet and I do hope we can crash errr umm carve down the mountain together sometime. Mike have you heard anything on the Entrada Lodge? I was thinking of staying there for the March event or the Marriot where I stayed before which has $69 rates.

I'm hoping it's all in the conditions and my lack of physical fitness maybe. I can change my angles down to about 45 without overhang I believe so maybe I'll try that if things still don't feel right my next outting.

My stance is basically set more back on the board not forward the Burton boards have a centered position that's marked and I'd be 2 holes back from that on my rear foot and 1 forward of that on my front foot. So basically fairly wide probably about 15inches width of stance or more I'd guess?

I also have a rear cant of 3degs and no front cant.

[Galen]

55 degrees on a SM sounds pretty steep. You did better at 45, maybe go back to that. Or, rather then worry about numbers, try lineing your heel and toe's even with the board edge. Also try "walk mode" on your boots, especially in bumpy conditions.

[RicHard]

...

Could you post some frames of a video? If it would be possibile to watch you, it would be really easy to help you...

Try to ask to your friends to take even a small video with a photocamera...

[philfell]

My stance is basically set more back on the board not forward the Burton boards have a centered position that's marked and I'd be 2 holes back from that on my rear foot and 1 forward of that on my front foot. So basically fairly wide probably about 15inches width of stance or more I'd guess?

Get out the tape mearsure and learn about what you truely have going on. Most guys I know have between a 19-20 inch wide stance. The small girls on my team are riding around 18.5 wide. If you truely have a 15 wide stance that could be very hurtfull to your riding, but I don't think you could even mount a stance that narrow on a modern Burton board.

Does your board have two marks on the insert pattern, one being a centered mark and one being a reference mark?

[Miguel]

I face my upper body in the same direction as my boots for heelside turns and I face it toward the front of the board for toeside turns. Staying low but with an erect upper body also helps. This advice is taken directly from one of the articles here at BOL and has served me very well. I also had problems with toeside turns until I started thinking about facing the front, staying low and angulating. Give it a try.

Miguel

PS I ride the same angles as you on my 19.5 waist Donek

[Ginsu]

I have generally turned my body toward where I want to turn. If thats wrong then if I understand correctly your saying you put your upper body position at the same angle as your boots for heelside and only turn your head to face the direction your going? Then for toeside your turning the upper body toward the front of the board?

Just when I thought I had it all figured out all these years I'm going to need a lesson from a hardbooter. I've never had lessons except from freestyle people and that was many eons ago.

[D-Sub]

yeah..did you just say fifteen inches as your stance width? if so...step 1 is CHANGE IT unless youre 4 feet tall, and even then CHANGE IT

:)

[Phil]

I face my upper body in the same direction as my boots for heelside turns and I face it toward the front of the board for toeside turns.

Can someone tell me what the advantage of this is?

[RicHard]

Can someone tell me what the advantage of this is?

It could be good just for very fast linked turns with very short radius with the board that is moving under you.

Otherwise, as far as I intend carving, it's exactly the opposite of what you have to do.

:-\

[snow|3oarder]

Ginsu- I`m a complete newbie to hardboots and just found that by changing my angles back to really low, 36/30, it suddenly all started happening for me.

dont listen to me, but when i moved my angles forward, lol, turning became easier. (from 55 60 to 60 65) im an anomoly:freak3:

[RicHard]

dont listen to me, but when i moved my angles forward, lol, turning became easier. (from 55 60 to 60 65) im an anomoly:freak3:

Ehm... usually, higher angles makes heelside carve easier. Lower angles, makes toeside carve easier.

For slided turns, usually... lower angles help.

Just my opinion.

[Phil]

It could be good just for very fast linked turns with very short radius with the board that is moving under you.

:-\

What I am understanding that you are saying is that in short radius turns you could keep your upper body facing the same direction as your feet on the heelside and facing the nose on your toeside. How would you do this and what advantage would it have?

[mackDan]

Go back to the basics.

Set up your stance first. That should be a comfortable normal distance apart.

Then set that centered on the mounting holes, don't push it to the rear (which it sounds like you have done). The stance is already a bit pushed back by the board manufacturer. If you push it to the rear of the board, a) you'll just ride the tail more which is bad form, b) you are going to over compensate by leaning forward, which will throw you off your turns (which is probably why you have 5 degrees on the boot lean).

Then set the bindings to the lowest reasonable angle that prevents overhang.

Then don't use to much boot lean, in fact maybe try starting with the boots in either walk mode or in powder mode (turn the dial on the boot lean adjustor). That way you can get the turn going, and then figure out where you want your boots set.

[astrokel]

What I am understanding that you are saying is that in short radius turns you could keep your upper body facing the same direction as your feet on the heelside and facing the nose on your toeside. How would you do this and what advantage would it have?

Not to step on Richard's toes but I believe he's thinking about fast cross-under turns, basically with the body facing down the fall line... where he's facing relative to the board/boots depends on where in the carve you are...

[RicHard]

What I am understanding that you are saying is that in short radius turns you could keep your upper body facing the same direction as your feet on the heelside and facing the nose on your toeside. How would you do this and what advantage would it have?

I should show you a video.

Is something you are going along a (almost) straight line down the slope and the board swing under you (it's difficult to explain it by words). Ohps! I think I've found this descriprion in the articles, maybe in the cross-over/cross-under section.

Try to have a look there!

I think this is the cross-under.

The benefit is that you don't loose speed. To me, it's just another technique to carve. I don't use it for any particular reason, just to practice it.

[Miguel]

Ginsu....look here for the source of my information. Pay close attention to paragraphs 5 and 6. It's in the Tech Articles section here at BOL and is written by Doug Taylor (Carving the Steeps). All I can say is that it works for me.

I seem to be able to angulate better on toeside when facing the front of the board. If you face the same angle as you boots on toe side, when you angulate your hips legs etc it seems to naturally move them more toward the back of the board...by facing forward and thus more square with the board your angulation and weight is shifted straight across the board and not to the rear. That explanation probably sucked and made no sense so read the article and more importantly go try it....it works well for me.

Miguel

http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/carving_the_steeps.cfm

[Phil]

A cross under turn is most efficiently done with a decently static upper body that is traveling down the fall line. It can be done other ways, but will not usually stay nearly as efficient. If you try to face the toes on the heel and face the nose on the toes, you will be swinging the body like a mad man. What's worse is that these are quick turns that have the board going from directly down the fall line on your heels to as much as perpendicular to the fall line in edge transition to directly in the fall line on your toes to as much as perpendicular to the fall line etc. This is all done in a split second. In that split second it is very hard to adjust where your upper body is and hence it would be more efficient to keep it calm.

As far as alignment goes for this, the most effective way to make these same turns is to give yourself room for the board to rotate 90 degrees in both directions. Again, your board will be in the fall line on both sides of you and up to 90 degrees (for the sake of argument) as it is coming across the hill. So I will use my stance as an example: I ride 65/65 if I face the nose in short radius (fall line crossunder) turns, as my board comes across the fall line on my heels (assuming that it comes straight across the fall line - again for the sake of argument) my upper body is only twisted 65 degrees from my feet - no problem. When my toeside comes across the fall line, my body is now twisted 115 degrees - my toes are starting to point uphill while my body points downhill. I am not a Yoga instructor so this will not work for me (and is not the most efficient for most people). The lower your binding angles, the worse this effect is. I once saw someone teaching a softbooter with low angles to reach downhill with both hands for fall line turns. Imagine this softbooter trying to achieve 180 degrees of twist in their body in order to finish their toeside across the hill. The bottom line is that your toesides will most likely suffer.

Can it be done? Sure, but it is a lot of work.

[RicHard]

A cross under turn is most efficiently done with a decently static upper body that is traveling down the fall line. It can be done other ways, but will not usually stay nearly as efficient. If you try to face the toes on the heel and face the nose on the toes, you will be swinging the body like a mad man. What's worse is that these are quick turns that have the board going from directly down the fall line on your heels to as much as perpendicular to the fall line in edge transition to directly in the fall line on your toes to as much as perpendicular to the fall line etc. This is all done in a split second. In that split second it is very hard to adjust where your upper body is and hence it would be more efficient to keep it calm.

I would add some personal consideration to yours.

I think that such technique doesn't allow you to control speed in any way.

I practiced it on easy/medium slope: it works great to carve very fast without reducing speed, due to the fact that your center of mass doesn't (almost) change direction. As far as I remember from my school, everytime an object changes direction, it need a "force" to do this. That's why you loose more speed if you carve tighter turns with the "classic" mode (crossover?): your center of mass change dramatically direction of travelling and that requires energy (so much energy that, if you are too fast with a turn that's too tight, you are pumped away of the carve).

That's why I think that such technique is not so effective on the steep if you think just about the board that swing below you: you can reach the light speed in few seconds.

Different issue could happens if you add a certain way of applying flexion and extension.

Anyway, if you don't change your "center of mass" 's direction and you don't put a good flexion/extension in, the speed becomes incontrollable.

[Miguel]

Man....all this techno jargon is starting to give me a freakin' headache! Vin Q, previously from Out of Bounds in K-Town once gave me the same advice so apparently it works for some of us. If I could draw a sketch I could probably explain my position better. I'll give it one more shot! I ride 55/50 on my Donek Freecarve. If I maintain my entire body facing the direction of my boots and angulate staright to my left side on a heel side turn, my weight naturally shifts more toward the front of the board (a good thing). If I angulate straight to the right on a toe side turn, my weight and my hips naturally move toward the back of the board (a not so good thing. Therefore, by turning my upper body toward the front of the board on toeside I wind up angulating much more directly across the board, similar to a skier and negating the negative effects of moving towrd the back end of the board. I agree, the lower the angles you're running the more twisting is involved. I don't feel like I'm twisting much at all although I'll admit to twenty minutes of Yoga every morning! Now you'll have to excuse me while I go take a Tylenol!

PS It always amazes me how many differences of opinion are given on the same subject here at BOL! I've tried lots of different techniques derived from articles and posts gleaned from BOL over the years, many contradicting the other. I've come to the conlusion that it's true...there is indeed more than one way to skin the proverbial cat!

Peace, Miguel

[Ginsu]

Ok I finally got the measurments of my setup done.

Take a look at the picture for the details but essentially.

I'm currently at 24in/62cm set back from the tip and 21in/54cm from the tale and have a stance width of 23in/58cm.