Jack: Question on Rotation turn and push pull method

[Guest needanswer]

Hi All,

Just joined this forum recently even though I've read & re-read most of the articles on bomberonline. I'm a beginner and have never carved, but would like to start carving on my pretty stiff soft set-up (burton rulers boots and Sims FSR 750 151cm and burton cartel bindings, I'll try to ride w/ 40/38 angles, currently , I'm on 33/30) I'm 5'6"-5'7", 143lbs and ride at Tahoe.

I was wondering what you guys (particularly Jack) thinks of the rotation turn and push pull method endorsed in the extremecarving site; I have no interest in the laid turn; just want know if rotation and push pull are good techniques while carving on soft setup.

for the rotation turn , here's the quote from EC site.

Be sliding in basic position and, before theturn zone, rotate your whole body toward the direction you want to go to, moving a little bit on your front foot (trick: look at the direction of the center of the circle that shapes the turn, the body will follow the movement). During this step, the snowboard won't turn and go on straight!... The turn begins at the moment where you block the body rotation because, with the inertia, the board will begin the same rotation and thus turn.

basically it says , stay on uphill edge, turn body, when you switch edge, the board will follow on inertia. That's basically how I ride now, but I remember the articles on this forum says to keep a quiet upper body and initiate turns from feet up to hips.

1) Do I need to unlearn the rotation method?

for the push-pull carve , here's the quote from EC site.

It is the same principle as the rotation turn, except that in addition, you start with your knees flexed, then you do the rotation. At the moment you lock the rotation, straighten progressively your legs, until the middle of the turn. Finally, finish the turn by progressively flexing your legs, being ready to do the same process in the opposite turn.

2) Isn't this the same as cross through?

3) When do you start to pull? when board is parallel to fall line, slightly before board is perpendicular to fall line, when board is perpendicular to fall line , when board is carving uphill?

4) should I ride with head point to nose of board and hands on the side with 40 ish degree angles? I think the max I can go w/ soft setup is 45 degree.

EC recommends hands and head align w/ binding angle, so body's not twisted.

But head pointing to nose gives the best vision and hands to side, best balance. what should I do?

5) some physics, it seems that skidding and switch to down hill edge = face or back plant. if I traversing (not skidding) perpendicular to fall line, is it safe to start my turn and go to the down hill edge. I've never been brave enough to switch edge when board is perpendicular to fall line.

I usually ride on the uphill edge and point the board like 45degree down hill before switching.

thanks in advance

BTW, I love this site's articles and threads, but it needs more time elapse pictures with annotations on what is happening to every body part.

[kjl]

Heh, I don't want to put words in Jack's mouth, but I don't think he likes the EC style very much ;) I do, but I think general consensus here (on bomberonline.com, but obviously not on extremecarving.com) is that large rotation turns like the EC guys do is wasted motion.

1) Do I need to unlearn the rotation method?

I don't think so. I like rotation. Also, I think most complaints about overrotation here are that for beginners to concentrate on that will distract them from achieving proper angulation first, but if you're already doing it naturally, I would say it's not a bad thing.

2) Isn't this the same as cross through?

3) When do you start to pull? when board is parallel to fall line, slightly before board is perpendicular to fall line, when board is perpendicular to fall line , when board is carving uphill?

I think it's like a very protracted cross through or cross under. Instead of a "carve, and then a cross-through turn, and then another carve", their entire carve is a transition from the previous edge switch or a transition into the next. Starting at about when the board is travelling straight down the fall line or a little bit afterwards they start to pull in. They time the pull-in so that they are fully pulled in when the board is perpendicular to the fall line, at which point it goes underneath them and they switch edges. Then they push out until they are pointed down the fall line again. You'd get better answers about this from their forum, though.

4) should I ride with head point to nose of board and hands on the side with 40 ish degree angles? I think the max I can go w/ soft setup is 45 degree.

EC recommends hands and head align w/ binding angle, so body's not twisted.

But head pointing to nose gives the best vision and hands to side, best balance. what should I do?

EC recommends pointing to the bindings as a neutral position, but when they are carving they are almost never actually in the neutral position - on heelside carves they are pointing to the nose and on toeside carves they are pointing to the toeside edge. People here recommend you rotate to the nose on heelsides if you have high angles; otherwise (and this applies to you, at 45-40 degrees), twisting to the nose will torsionally twist your board and your tail will wash out during heelsides, so you should stay facing your bindings.

5) some physics, it seems that skidding and switch to down hill edge = face or back plant. if I traversing (not skidding) perpendicular to fall line, is it safe to start my turn and go to the down hill edge. I've never been brave enough to switch edge when board is perpendicular to fall line.

I usually ride on the uphill edge and point the board like 45degree down hill before switching.

Yeah, that's kind of the whole trick to freecarving is to start the turn very early. Some of the folks on here will switch to the downhill edge while not only traversing perpendicular to the fall line, but even while travelling slightly uphill after a very long previous carve. It definitely takes some commitment and bravery to trust that your board will catch up to you if you do this.

I... ride at Tahoe

Where do you ride? There are a bunch of Tahoe riders with lots of different styles that would be happy to ride with you. Also, check out tahoecarvers.com, which is where we all coordinate who's going where and all of that. I should be up there every weekend at Squaw in January and March at least.

[astrokel]

UhOh here goes ;) ...

I think every system that is described verbally willl inevitably be misunderstood because the whole thing has to be understood holistically. Describing static positions in a dynamic system is probably going to lead to a misstimed position or if you're lucky you'll hit it exactly on but then what happens next?

It's my opinion that the EC turn is not all that different from the cross through turn described in Jack's articles. The "extreme" bit that Jack doesn't seem to like is the bit of getting the body WAAAY out over the COG but that's really the fun part and a great thing to aspire to (but NOT to learn straight off). I think, as Jack said, it's REALLY important to learn all the ways of moving over/under/through the board. It seems that learning the "push-pull"/"cross-through" is a very good way of learning to carve. "Push/pull" or cross-through turns can be learned when learning to carve. EC has to wait until that kind of turn is mastered then the timing can be worked on. You don't go out and drag your knees the first, second or even third time out on your motorcycle.

Read Jack's articles like you've done over and over and apply as much of it as you can. It's definitely better to try'em on easier slopes. There are other articles on the Carver's Almanac that also present other schools that might be interesting but also might confuse you at this point.

If you're really interested in EC get a hold of Peter Vu at Tahoe Carvers, he's really generous with his info.

Oh! one more thing... check the sequence photos at this site. It doesn't describe everything but they're fun to stare at.

Most important stay within your comfort range most of the time, venture out of it occasionally and have fun!

ps...

I do, but I think general consensus here (on bomberonline.com, but obviously not on extremecarving.com) is that large rotation turns like the EC guys do is wasted motion.

I personally don't think that "EC" turns are "large rotation turns". I think "large rotation" is exactly what they are trying to avoid. The rotation that they are describing is one that should lead the board and not follow. The videos showing the beginner rotation is exaggerated (and indeed could be called LARGE) and is probably for illustrative purposes.

[D-Sub]

Im gonna chime in here (thought I wouldnt?:)) and say this:

do not get too wrapped up in technique, "perfect" form, etc! Yes, you need correct technique to ride/carve/jump...whatever, but

personally...I see a trend toward very, very robotic effort that almost completely lacks any personal style in the carving world. I'll be the first to admit that I aint no "pro" (well, there's no such thing as a pro freecarver anymore is there?) and have my flaws, but, when I started riding...the idea was to a)do "it" effectively, but b)do it with style! and really, if you couldnt do b, then a didnt matter.

this gets brought up in the Dogtown vid...I think its Red Dog talkin about style...cant remember who...but when whoever it was was talkin I though "holy crap, thats the same conversation I had with my friends when learning to skate, surf, snowboard!"

style matters. Technique matters too, but if you focus too much on technique, you can end up with no "you" in there and youll never develop your own style.

OF COURSE they go hand in hand...good technique looks good. not always.

take golf for example...there's now a new breed of golfers raised with the best instructors, the best equipment, etc...and their golf swings look robotic, mechanical, soulless. Seems like a lot of asian americans try to play this way...missing the point entirely...the fact that effort is a matter of personal expression. If youre just going through the motions...there's little joy in that ultimately.

so...sure...read the articles, concentrate on technique so you can ride effectively in a variety of conditions, but don't forget to mix it up a bit, and make sure you are part of the equation.

[astrokel]

take golf for example...there's now a new breed of golfers raised with the best instructors, the best equipment, etc...and their golf swings look robotic, mechanical, soulless. Seems like a lot of asian americans try to play this way...missing the point entirely...

I guess Tiger IS an Asian American... ;)

oh Kudos on the style thing BTW

[D-Sub]

Oh! one more thing... check the sequence photos at this site. It doesn't describe everything but they're fun to stare at.

holy cow look at this:

http://www.okao.com/gallery/album03/marcorovere

I trip out on boards NOT breaking sometimes

[timinor]

Two thoughts I learned from watching and listening to ski "technicions" over-analize technique.

"Form follows function" and "The essense of this is not the 'position'. It is the movement to the position."

All that being said, I say, "Who's smiling the most? That's the person who has it figured out."

[D-Sub]

I guess Tiger IS an Asian American... ;)

oh Kudos on the style thing BTW

Tiger is a whole different breed though...somewhere along the line, he also learned fire, spirit, and healthy aggression. he doesnt look like a robot

the female golfers...the most boring thing to watch, EVER, imo...it's even worse with most of them. Old school pro's like laura davies, etc..that era...they had style...but a lot of the new female pros, many of them asian, are BOOOOORING because they've no personality.

but yeah...you know where Im comin from on style thing.

[Guest needanswer]

thanks for those who provided pics

regarding style - I agree completely. however, as a beginner , I would like to pick up some skills first. carving in any form is still better style than skidding.

"Form follows function"

. this is why I like Jack's articles; they always start from function and talk about how the form relates.

"The essense of this is not the 'position'. It is the movement to the position."

yes, that's why I wanted to see more time-lapsed pics.

regarding, Tahoe riders, I think I need more time to practice before embarrassing myself in front of experts. Forums are nice that way :D

astrokel, I did look through Carver's Almanac . It makes push-pull sound fluid and effortless; that's why I was interested.

EC recommends pointing to the bindings as a neutral position, but when they are carving they are almost never actually in the neutral position - on heelside carves they are pointing to the nose and on toeside carves they are pointing to the toeside edge.

KJL , actually looking at EC pics, they start each carve with rotation, so they are like you said "on heelside carve, pointing to the nose and on toeside carves, pointing to the toeside edge" however, once they stop rotation and switch edge, the board follows and soon they're back to pointing to the bindings.

I like the mental part of rotation and push pull, because everything revolves around the upper body.

For rotation, the board followes the upper body and turns. not , the board is carving and I'm riding it.

For push-pull, it's pull the board towards me or push the board away. Not, flex toward the board, or stand up from it.

it's really the same thing , but mental pictures are important since we're thinking creatures.

Still waiting for Jack....

[Guest needanswer]

the female golfers...the most boring thing to watch, EVER, imo...it's even worse with most of them. Old school pro's like laura davies, etc..that era...they had style...but a lot of the new female pros, many of them asian, are BOOOOORING because they've no personality.

but yeah...you know where Im comin from on style thing.

hey , that's sexist and racist!

Just kidding. Are you saying that "watching" golf can be not boring?

[Pat Donnelly]

http://club-ski.web.cern.ch/club-ski/snowboard/tutor.html

[D-Sub]

hey , that's sexist and racist.

Just kidding. Are you saying that "watching" golf can be not boring?

heh...its neither...Im glad you're joking.

and, yeah...If you like golf, there are exciting times to watch it. I'd rather play than watch of course, but...sometimes it is amazing. I think you have to play to care though.

anyway..no more threadjack...

to the OP...yes...style is important but fundamentals need to work first.

my point was...if you concentrate too much on "tech" you might miss out on style and expression.

[astrokel]

Tiger is a whole different breed though...somewhere along the line, he also learned fire, spirit, and healthy aggression. he doesnt look like a robot

the female golfers...the most boring thing to watch, EVER, imo...it's even worse with most of them. Old school pro's like laura davies, etc..that era...they had style...but a lot of the new female pros, many of them asian

Just calling you out on your rather generalist remark. . You might reign in your feelings in regards to cubbyholing certain segments of the human race into specific areas of "interest". And no I'm NOT kidding... If you ask me the "robotic" aspect of the sport is more a sign of the times. You're observation that the "Asians" seem so whatever might be that they just do it better than the others (and I'm not talking about winning here so please don't cite statistics about who won what and when). Your remarks are outta place... And these remarks would be the same if you said Hispanics, Germans, or SriLankans...

I do miss iconoclasts like Lee Trevino and even Arnie had the weirdest swing. It's just the game demands a precision nowadays in order to compete that the margin for "style" gets smaller and smaller.

[gdboytyler]

Tiger is a whole different breed though...somewhere along the line, he also learned fire, spirit, and healthy aggression. he doesnt look like a robot

I suppose Michelle Wie is also another exception to the soul-less, mechanical, Asian-American golfer.

Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper, and Donavon McNabb are exceptions to the rule that blacks can't be good QB's.

I've got a brother that has good-looking, natural golf swing and he sucks at math. What can I still believe in? Next thing you know, someone will tell me there's no Santa!

[bobdea]

Im gonna chime in here (thought I wouldnt?:)) and say this:

do not get too wrapped up in technique, "perfect" form, etc! Yes, you need correct technique to ride/carve/jump...whatever, but

personally...I see a trend toward very, very robotic effort that almost completely lacks any personal style in the carving world. I'll be the first to admit that I aint no "pro" (well, there's no such thing as a pro freecarver anymore is there?) and have my flaws, but, when I started riding...the idea was to a)do "it" effectively, but b)do it with style! and really, if you couldnt do b, then a didnt matter.

this gets brought up in the Dogtown vid...I think its Red Dog talkin about style...cant remember who...but when whoever it was was talkin I though "holy crap, thats the same conversation I had with my friends when learning to skate, surf, snowboard!"

style matters. Technique matters too, but if you focus too much on technique, you can end up with no "you" in there and youll never develop your own style.

OF COURSE they go hand in hand...good technique looks good. not always.

take golf for example...there's now a new breed of golfers raised with the best instructors, the best equipment, etc...and their golf swings look robotic, mechanical, soulless. Seems like a lot of asian americans try to play this way...missing the point entirely...the fact that effort is a matter of personal expression. If youre just going through the motions...there's little joy in that ultimately.

so...sure...read the articles, concentrate on technique so you can ride effectively in a variety of conditions, but don't forget to mix it up a bit, and make sure you are part of the equation.

I don't want to see the carving world start to look like a group PSIA folks, I friend of mine who is one of the better skiers I know and missing a leg used to call PSIA people the cookie cutters because they all ski the same.

[Baka Dasai]

I'm not Jack, and I'm not an instructor. I'm just a guy with the following opinions.

I'll try to ride w/ 40/38 angles, currently , I'm on 33/30)

I wouldn't bother going to higher angles while on soft boots. It doesn't help you carve turns, and it makes maneouverability more difficult. 33/30 is plenty steep enough.

I was wondering what you guys (particularly Jack) thinks of the rotation turn and push pull method endorsed in the extremecarving site; I have no interest in the laid turn; just want know if rotation and push pull are good techniques while carving on soft setup.

I think that concentrating on "rotation" tends to make people use their upper body to swing their lower body and board around. That can be a fluid and fun way to ride, but it won't help you learn to carve a turn. Actually I'd say that it tends to prevent you from simply committing to the edge and letting it bring you around.

"Push-pull" is quite fine though - it's just another word for "cross-under" or "cross-through".

for the rotation turn , here's the quote from EC site.

Be sliding in basic position and, before theturn zone, rotate your whole body toward the direction you want to go to, moving a little bit on your front foot (trick: look at the direction of the center of the circle that shapes the turn, the body will follow the movement). During this step, the snowboard won't turn and go on straight!... The turn begins at the moment where you block the body rotation because, with the inertia, the board will begin the same rotation and thus turn.

basically it says , stay on uphill edge, turn body, when you switch edge, the board will follow on inertia.

The board will follow by rotating (ie, skidding) in the direction you are rotating. As I said before, there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it's helpful if you're trying to learn to carve.

That's basically how I ride now, but I remember the articles on this forum says to keep a quiet upper body and initiate turns from feet up to hips.

1) Do I need to unlearn the rotation method?

I think so.

4) should I ride with head point to nose of board and hands on the side with 40 ish degree angles? I think the max I can go w/ soft setup is 45 degree.

EC recommends hands and head align w/ binding angle, so body's not twisted.

But head pointing to nose gives the best vision and hands to side, best balance. what should I do?

I agree with the EC advice here - align yourself with your binding angles. But the EC'ers emphasis on rotation means they are rarely aligned with their binding angles, which means they are putting a rotational (ie, skidding) force on their board.

5) some physics, it seems that skidding and switch to down hill edge = face or back plant.

Yes, that'll happen until you find that fairly small sweet spot where you can balance over the downhill edge for the fraction of a second it takes before the edge starts carving back below you. The trick here for me is ANGULATION, which the EC'ers don't do much of. The more I angulate, the bigger the sweet spot for balancing over the downhill edge. I admire the way Patrice and Jacques can lay themselves out fairly early in the turn without really angulating. I think more skill is required to do it the way they do it.

if I traversing (not skidding) perpendicular to fall line, is it safe to start my turn and go to the down hill edge. I've never been brave enough to switch edge when board is perpendicular to fall line.

I usually ride on the uphill edge and point the board like 45degree down hill before switching.

Yeah, it's safe, but as I said, the sweet spot for getting it right is fairly small. You just have to keep trying. You also need a little bit of speed, but on a soft-boot board it's easy to have more speed than the board can carve with.

If you have to point the board 45 degrees down the hill before you're comfortable getting on the downhill edge, I'd move to a flatter slope where you never have to get your board more perpendicular to the fall line than 45 degrees in order to keep your speed under control when carving.

Hope that helps. The whole EC thing is kinda controversial here. My opinion is that it looks kinda cool, but is a difficult way to ride that I wouldn't recommend to people who are learning. Others will disagree.

[Jack M]

I was wondering what you guys (particularly Jack) thinks of the rotation turn and push pull method endorsed in the extremecarving site; I have no interest in the laid turn; just want know if rotation and push pull are good techniques while carving on soft setup.

Welcome to Bomber! Sorry to be 18th to reply to questions directed at me, I ran out of time yesterday.

Push-Pull technique seems to be very similar to cross-through, which is a good thing to know how to do. Here is an article about cross-through technique.

Rotation, however, is totally unnecessary in my opinion. Why? 1 - you can turn and carve a snowboard very well without doing it; 2 - it's an extra movement to coordinate with everything else that's going on; 3 - it can upset your balance. So why do it? I know that the EC guys are instructors and have taught hundreds of people this technique. That doesn't mean it's better, it's just different, and I disagree with it. But that's what makes the world go round. I was once an instructor too and successfully taught hundreds of people without it.

1) Do I need to unlearn the rotation method?

No. The more techniques you have under your belt the better. I just don't think that's the best way to approach carving.

2) Isn't this (push-pull) the same as cross through?

it's very similar.

3) When do you start to pull? when board is parallel to fall line, slightly before board is perpendicular to fall line, when board is perpendicular to fall line , when board is carving uphill?

For quick, snappy cross-through edge changes, you start to pull when you need to unweight the board in order to flick the board from edge to edge. For a more drawn-out surfy push-pull or cross-through style, I'd say you start to pull shortly after the board is perpendicular to the fall line.

4) should I ride with head point to nose of board and hands on the side with 40 ish degree angles? I think the max I can go w/ soft setup is 45 degree.

EC recommends hands and head align w/ binding angle, so body's not twisted.

But head pointing to nose gives the best vision and hands to side, best balance. what should I do?

Do whichever way works better for you. At 40 degrees, I'd guess you might do better to ride with your body aligned with your binding angles, but maybe not. As for your head alignment - I don't know anybody who doesn't ride with their head looking where they're going.

5) some physics, it seems that skidding and switch to down hill edge = face or back plant. if I traversing (not skidding) perpendicular to fall line, is it safe to start my turn and go to the down hill edge.

Yes. Read the article on The Norm for help on learning how to do this. One of the more gratifying things about carving is knowing how to change edges and carve the downhill edge, thereby making nice round "C" shaped carves.

BTW, I love this site's articles and threads, but it needs more time elapse pictures with annotations on what is happening to every body part.

Glad you're enjoying it here, we're always glad to welcome another new carver. I agree about the photos. If someone wants to buy me a 20D I'll go get some sequences. :D

[astrokel]

Glad you're enjoying it here, we're always glad to welcome another new carver. I agree about the photos. If someone wants to buy me a 20D I'll go get some sequences. :D

What's a 20D? Vahur (an Estonian carver) did those sequences from ripped images off the videos on the EC site (I think it was the "Lifted" video). Beautiful work if you ask me. I have no idea what the software requirements are to take images off videos but I think you can do it from any digital video. Anyone know? (Probably should ask him right? :o )

It would be REALLY interesting to get a similar sequence to statically compare a so-called "non-rotation" technique to a so-called "rotation" technique. I suspect they would be really similar except for maybe a miniscule amount of effort to actually enter a turn, and I suspect that the miniscule amount of effort required is to get a large radius sidecut board to bend in order to turn it tight. I think an apt analogy is the technique difference required for initiating a turn between a 1000cc four stroke superbike and a 250cc two stroke GP bike. The actual static movement is very similar only the effort required is applied diffferently. I might be wrong here but I would LOVE to see it.

[Carp]

I forgot there was style associated with snowboarding. I remember watching Craig Kelly carve back in the day. I think both alpine and softbooters can take bits of technique and style for each other. That's the way I remember it in the sports infancy. It was all about the feel and the fun factor and just hanging out with fellow riders, regardless of what boots they were wearing or what gear. I really have a hard time believing one technique is better. I have no physiology background but the rider being able to adapt his/her body in a given situation, terrain, equipment, etc. is what makes this such a dynamic and fun sport. It's all about just riding and having fun unless you're a racer (not that they're not having fun).

Speaking of Craig Kelly (sorry to get off topic), but on a Sacred Ride episode they have a episode that pays tribute to him that's pretty cool. I think it was filmed very shortly before he died and is maybe the last footage of him riding.

[Jack M]

is a byproduct of technique. The best carvers look good because they can carve smoothly. People who look like robots probably are forcing themselves to ride unnaturally because they haven't mastered the technique.

And people who try to perfect their style before their technique won't feel very stylish when they end up on their ass.

Dave - wouldn't you agree that in order to get a large radius board to carve the same size turn as a small radius board, you have to be going faster, thereby experiencing higher g-forces and whatnot, which requires more effort?

[RicHard]

And people who try to perfect their style before their technique won't feel very stylish when they end up on their ass.

Ahahahah! Yes. The most of the times, they just THINK that their style is good while the back hand is always saying "hello" to anybody to gain balance, due to the straight legs!

You have no time to say "oh... look that guy... it's carving but just on that perfect snow... if he find some ice"... SBONKKKKKKKKK! He's already gone!...

:-D

Dave - wouldn't you agree that in order to get a large radius board to carve the same size turn as a small radius board, you have to be going faster, thereby experiencing higher g-forces and whatnot, which requires more effort?

Yes... or you can put the edge on a higher angle on the snow... and you are forgetting the flex: it matters. Some GS board are very soft and can be bent much easier than SL ones...

;-)

[astrokel]

I found another sequence showing a "non-rotation" carve. It's the photo on the lower right hand corner.

It might not be the best example because it looks like he's a bit behind the board at the entry of the turn. Also it looks more like a "cross-over" turn than a "non-rotation" "cross-through" (in order to make that direct comparison). It just seems it would be fun to have a collection of these somwhere...

[Carp]

The two go hand in hand and your point about riding like robots could be not mastering technique, but it could be thinking about technique so much that it hinders the style and the ability to learn. As much as I like reading (and encourage more writing) the tech articles here, and they've helped me pick up little things in my riding; the best teacher for me is just getting out and riding and learning from my successes and failures. (That's just the way I learn...I have to do it). I know one guy that reads a book on technique and then is able to go out to the hill and has immediately mastered it. That's just not me. I have a feeling Jack is that type of person and more power to that type of learning. I wish I could be able to do that more often.

[astrokel]

On second thought... I would have to restate that board inclination is the MOST important aspect in determining arc shape. The 'bend-ability' would be 2nd.

YES! (btw I might be also full of ----). My question is how you get into that inclinated state. I my experience (all two days :o ) of trying to get the technique of that "rotation" that the EC guys talk about, I find that in order to initiate a turn on the Swoard it requires a bigger body turn compared to my Incline. I think that's because with the smaller radius sidecut when tipped slighty on edge the front edge of the board engages relatively quickly and leads the rest of the board into the carve. With the larger radius board I need to tip the board quicker and apply downward pressure (either simultaneously or really quickly in sequence, depending on how fast I'm going) in order to get more bend into the board (it's this timing that I'm having a spot of trouble with BTW). This all may get significantly revised as I get more experience on the board but these are my first impressions.

[Jack M]

On third thought... maybe I really do need to be going faster to maintain that increased board inclination angle.

either that or angulating more.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think you can say that X is the most important factor. That's kind of like saying the sales department is the most important department in the company.