Coaching vs. Teaching

[ncermak]

didn't want to hijack the can carving survive thread...so here goes

Some good points in that thread about coaching and teaching and AASI, and USSA and FIS...

So, what is the difference...

In my mind (and very briefly)

Coaching - Long term, involves athlete management, instruction, skill development, nutrition, advisor, all aspects of the athlete's life can come into play. Note: All coaches teach in some form...

Teaching: usually shorter term and more exclusively skills based.

And just for the sake of saying it...lets keep this to snowboarding (and keep knitting out of it :D )

Also - what has characterized the best and or worst coaches you have encountered...

-Noah

[Guest dragon fly jones]

I've taught, coached, sold, bought, lived and breathed snow life for many moons and I would have to say that instructors when they do the job correctly have a good influence on beginners or for refreshers (which everyone should take at the start of the season just for safeties sake).

The coaching aspect is much more involved and long term than the typical one three hour block of instruction. You get some skills so that your able to "safely" negotiate terrain and avoid others, but what we do is much more.

Noah is right about it being all encompassing (was not stated that way but I get that from his statement) we also have to consider safety on and off the hill, learn how to set courses, tune, get CPR certs, administrate, travel, sit in endless meetings for coaches, co-ordinate races, course work, be the number one cheerleader and shoulder blame when a parent decides that your or thier child has let them down. Not to mention being a diplomat for your mountain, program, youself and really for a sub section of an industry. PR person, marketing whizz, wet nurse, dry nurse, protecter and defender, Dr Phil and Dr. Spock and Oprah along with a little Maury and Springer thrown in.

Now:

This, for me, is about the love of the game/ride and all the stuff that comes with it. Great coaches juggle 7-10 balls at once while keeping our eyes out for encouraging the love of outdoors, a commitment to school, work and teaching and molding future generations to come and hopefully they take what we teach and pay it forward.

We all spend a great amount of time learning new things and how to communicate that and it is all appreciated by the individuals that we work with or impact.

Best coach: The one that told me my career was over in basketball - still one of my best friends to this day.

Worst coach: The one I saw berating his kids at Aspen a few years ago - ski coach - out of control and I really wanted to pop his ass.

Hasta, Gotta go wax so I can RIDE MY SNOWBOARD IN THE MORNING.

[Neil Gendzwill]

instructors when they do the job correctly have a good influence on beginners or for refreshers (which everyone should take at the start of the season just for safeties sake).

You're seriously suggesting that everyone needs to take a lesson at the start of the season?

[Kent]

Instructor - skill based goal (I want to do a 360)

Coach - achievement based goal (I want to win the national championships this year)

Best coach (college hockey) - "Will you girls stop thinking and put the $%@# puck in the back of the net so we can get the @%# out of this hillbilly town, goddamnit"

Worst coach - "Go out there and have fun"

[Guest dragon fly jones]

When was the last time you were on snow?

Will it come back quickly? Oh I forgot your an advanced rider and nothing needs shoring up.

That little nugget was for, as it noted, safety's sake. You can agree or disagree. I have my riders go out and work on riding skills to refresh their minds and bodies of the rigors of riding. You can call that a lesson. I should have be very specific and headed that question off at the pass.

Anyway.

[Neil Gendzwill]

When was the last time you were on snow?

Will it come back quickly? Oh I forgot your an advanced rider and nothing needs shoring up.

You know, if I had any confidence at all that the instructor was actually capable of shoring up my riding, I'd go for it in an instant. I've tried the lesson thing. They're just not set up for advanced riders yet, at least not in the resorts I've been to. Their idea of an advanced group is a bunch of guys who can connect skidded turns on a blue run. If you look at the levels for snowboarding posted at Canadian resorts, they stop halfway up compared to the skiing levels. As far as I'm concerned, snowboard instruction here is in it's infancy - good for beginners and not much else.

And no, I'm not going to pony up bucks for a private lesson with the head dude who may or may not be able to even keep up with me. Each resort I go to, I go to the ski school desk and say "what's the level of your top instructor? Does he know anything about hard boots?" The answer has so far been 2 and no, except for one guy at KHMR who was gone that week. If someone points me to a specific person and says "this guy is good", then maybe. I'm anxious to learn, and in fact I will be spending the bucks to get to Aspen this year so I can learn (and drink beer with you guys). I just have no confidence in the resort instruction program.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

And now that that has been settled.

I hope to see ya'll in Aspen.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

I know I am gonna get flamed for this but it won't be the first or last.

Deep breath:

You can tell the PSIA/ASSEY instructors by how they ride. To which I note, that at Copper all of those guys rider exactly the same, little hand flutters pinchy knees and ick looks the same, went to Squaw for 4 days - what do you know SAME THING, humm - went to PC - they all ride the same. Now this is a general observation from me - I could be wrong, but I doubt it. And we all know what opinions are like right.

There were some differences that I saw.

We coaches all have our own styles and you can almost tell who's coming at you by how they ride. It's not just another goobotron coming down the hill you know it's a real man and lumber jack swinging his axe at the unforgiving hill ( or something like that) damn that was gay. Never mind. I have a worsening cold effecting me and it's hard to be professionally witty when a significant portion of the intellect devoted to not ****ting/puking or snotting on yourself.

[ak_rider]

I won't say too much on AASI(assey:), since I am not a member, nor do I care to be. From what I've seen of assey and heard from cert instructors they seem more focussed on who can show off not who can convey the info to their clients in a simple, yet effective manner.

I'm CASI(canadian) certified. I believe this organization is a much better one. We are trained to teach advanced riding, the level 4 requires proficiency in hard boots as well as soft. The prerequisite for level 3 is passing the basic freestyle coach course. They also offer a basic race coach course, as well as advance coaching courses for each, and these are tied in with the CSF. CASI has their stuff together, and are working hand in hand with the CSF, so they are not just training instructors but creating snowboard professionals qualified to give an hour lesson or a season of coaching.

I think the difference between instructing and coaching is the atitude of the teacher/coach and the desire of the client. If all they want is an hour lesson, that's all they're going to get. If they want to progress and have help from a pro, they're allowing themselves to be coached. I'm capable of providing both of these services. I don't consider myself just 1 or the other. I'm simply a snow pro ready and willing to convey my knowledge and love of this sport to who ever would like it. If my clients have questions on diet, excercise, health, tuning, I'm happy to help and give them more knowledge than they thought was out there.

Best coach: " keep your upper body more upright. Pretend your a stipper and are standing against a stripper pole collecting tips"(I was seriously told this, it's more laid back in Canada)

Worst coach:blah, blah, blah He spent the majority of the time sitting on the side of the run and talking, talking , talking.

Shut up and ride. :D

[philfell]

An instructor takes any Joey (or Joette) off the street and gives them a few generic tips on how to better their experience at the resort. The goal of a good instructer should be to give the costumer a great experience for the money. Different students need different things it's up to the instructor to quickly figure it out and give it to them usually under a three hour time limit.

A coach develops a long term realationship with his ATHLETE in order to guide them through the steps need to attain clear set GOALS. These steps can be over the course of a season or over many seasons, all the while conquering mini goal on the way to the big goal. This process usually takes huge amounts of time focusing on the details, and is an up and down rollercoaster of emotioin the entire time.

[ak_rider]

the last time I checked all coaches were certified instructors. It's not I'm a coach and you're an instructor. It's I have clients who want to work towards a large goal(ie-winning nationals) and you have clients who want to make better turns on blue runs. Instrucor and coach are the same person, the difference is in what your client is looking for from you.

[philfell]

Seriously Bola, fill me in. What did I miss? When did I tell anyone to drop their shoulder going around a gate. Which "ripper" on from the Steamboat crew, there are so many over their.

The eye thing? Again what? All coaches do what? Lie? Or the eye thing? What did I miss here?

[Bordy]

Bola,

Phil spends most of his hill time just tring to keep me inline.. It a wonder he gets all the other team taken care of just cuz I am so Needy....

I will say he is one of the few coaches I know who knows every athlete on the tour by name, and at some point has positivly contributed to their riding.

The internet can by such a cold hearted bitch to share friendly banter correctly. ;)

Send Mitchell over to Copper for pre camp then he can see what he is missing!

I know he wants IN!

[ncermak]

bordy...

I am interested in your thoughts on this topic...

[Bordy]

I have been the student, the instructor, the coach, the athlete and back and forth a few times.

First of all Let me keep my self out of soom trouble by saying that anyone who contributes to another riders future must have passion and patience. Most, though not all instructors and coaches share a love for snowboarding that drives them to help others by sharing there knowledge.

If you where to spend enough time with any athlete as a teacher you would then have a relationship with them This to me is one of the biggest differences.

Instructors are paid loving. A snowboard whore, I run in I pay my money they give me the sweet snowboard love I need, how ever I like it. I say thanks maybe take a picture and then roll out smiling. I could go back to the same whore if I like it or maybe I could go find me some thing else on a different corner. Maybe I bed up for a week or two with the same instructor while I am in town. Problem with instructors is at some point I am going to not need them if they do there job right. Then I move on next town next trip maybe it been I while since I have ridden and I just need a quickie to remind me of what I am missing. Then I am right back on my own. Playing with my self, practicing in till I get stuck again then I go and get some help again.

The instructor has a tough job, in under a day some times in just a hour, they have to ID and Correct the most important flaws in the students riding to start with, then make judgment calls to fix them through out the lesson with a experienced rider. Teaching any one from level 1 to 5 is just a bore you go out go through your normal progression to introduce fundamentals so the rider can well just ride. Its basic and although needs a bit of tweaking for each person in the group and conditions morale etc. it almost the same day after day. Hence Clinics and work shops to know the info the student needs to ride so most instructor teach the same basic PSIA USIA stuff, jazzed up with their own flair. (Brothers got to get paid. And of course you are always looking for the T.I.P. yo) at these levels most lessons are just work to get paid. The upper lesson can be a joy with the right students and you can form good enough a bond to get your JOHN to come back to pay for your sweet snowboard loving again!

Coaches are, well like a real relationship Phil is my bitch some times and some times I am his we have to have a friend ship first off, just to survive how much time we spend together. Some months on the road I see more Phil then my wife. (I still can’t get him to give it up though) So a coach knows his riders at a personal level They know the strong and weak points in my riding, they know how I am feeling emotionally, what my level of commitment is, My level of conditioning, endurance, and ability. We work together to reach long term goals through all the ups and down people experience when they work together. A coach is more like a business partner striving for the same goals with you, suffering along the way. Plus a coach (good coach) takes care of business on there side.

My coach tries his hardest to make the athletes life as easy as possible by pointing us in the right direction to make travel plans, doing much or most of the leg work. We make sure we are going to the next event some how, usually Phil finds the info and we just go online and pay. When I show up he has got us a place to stay, he has taken care of the travel crap and spent his time as my bitch in return I have to be his bitch on the hill. I trust him to see what I can’t and with me to make decision to improve my performance.

I turn where he tells me I ride how he tells me and I do what ever I can to make it happen. I like all good team members try to make life on the hill as easy for Phil as possible. And count on him to help me through race day so I can focus and ride my butt off using the skills we worked on over months, watching video analyzing this correcting that.

Come race day a good coach is where it’s at! They help with wax selection, Line choice, course review morning prep and that’s all before a single one of there many athletes drop in for a run. Once the racing starts they scramble to get feedback to the athlete, they run clothing to help maintain muscle warmth, they make wax adjustments. And work with the rest of there coaching crew to make us as fast as possible. Some times cleaning goggles so the rider can focus. Some time shoving snow down your back to get you head in check some time just standing next to you saying you’ve got this! Ride like you train… LET’S GO!!!!!

Coaching involves a commitment to a group of people and requires you to be in charge that’s your title coach. You cant call in sick on a race day because Green Day is in town you can’t ask to go free ride and pass the lesson to some one else(my instructors used to have a goggle up, goggle down code for if they wanted to work, so people who wanted to make money could and people who wanted to ride could also) To bad you have to work you’re the coach. Plus for an older guy like me my coaches are friends to hang with on the road and such.

I always found coaching more rewarding then instructing. You have a relationship with the athletes and you begin to feel rewarded by their actions. You can feel the same sense of accomplishment with some clients as a instructor. I still have clients that I have had for years. But I have never felt the same pride and sense of accomplish for there snowboard accomplishments as I have when I see a athlete Proud of there performance. And to see your athlete on the podium…Priceless!

[Guest dragon fly jones]

Will you marry me?

Waxing poetic and well said.

Makes me proud to be a coach and know that respect and friendship is there for Phil and by extension all of use other coaches out grinding it out on the hill, in the wasx room and in the office trying to find a clean, quiet and close in place to stay for you all.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Guest Marty]

Interesting thread... I thought they both do the same thing. I think you guys are getting a little " hung-up " on titles.

[Bordy]

Interesting thread... I thought they both do the same thing. I think you guys are getting a little " hung-up " on titles.

Perhaps our level of commitment and experience is much more then your experances. Do you think you have the practical experance of some of the people involed in this thread.

I mean I could go to a Hair and nail salon and hang out and only really understand a little bit of their world and careers. But I don’t think I would make a response about being “The same” It would be like saying all the girls in the salon have the same job, but truth is the all have specific parts the job of making people look nice. One may do nails one may do hair, perhaps one person does make up. Some one handles all the cash and appointments. Some of you response sounds rude and uneducated to me especially the part of “you guys getting hung up on titles” are you sure that its not just that we all have real world practical experience that you are not familiar with? Have you had or been a coach or an athlete in a winter traveling sport at the higher levels of competition. And have you been an instructor at the same levels?

I am just curious why you feel this way,and needed to make comments as such with out more backing and explanation?

Why would you insult people who take the time to responed on a forum to help the sport grow, we are all clearly here for the same reson?

[Bordy]

If I write out the job discription Between the two titles based on my experience the difference becomes even more clear. It really puzzles me why some one would make such a comment.

We both know on a regular base there are comments on this site that are just out there.

In no way was I coming down on the random new poster but why in the world would you interject with babble?

I am glad I took the time to share info when some one ask me specifically. Then to have some random cat kick in with a comment I am curious about. I think it within my right to ask why?

It's this type of stuff that reduces the pleasure of posting here.

We are having a discussion among passionate people and some cat comes in and degrades it and I would like to know why.

I select what topics I take the time to read. I am here to talk snowboarding with other people that is what this board is all about.

I am glad Marty choose to contribute to this thread but would like to know why he responded how he did?

I can guess he just wanted to kick in and felt the topic was silly and made his comment.

But I could be wrong. He could be a NFL coach that now teaches football camp and thinks the job is the same and has real practical experance to back it up with.

Or he could be a guy who is new here and thought they both did the same thing and still feels so after reading this thread.

I don’t know and I am asking him why.

[BobD]

I agree, Marty's comment seems dismissive in the context of Bordy's eloquent descriptions.

I do think though, there is a level of instruction that deserves the title coach. It much depends on the instruction hierachy of the sport in question, but generally there is a higher level where inovation, refinement and subtlety are beyond anything in the normal instruction program. In the noncompetitive areas of some sports, these people are also refered to as coaches. This implies that the people who are being coached, though not competitive are near the top of thier game. However, I understand that in this sport coaches are normally of the competition sort and that's fine too.

BobD

[sickmove]

Hey y'all-

Getting ready for the season, checking on my hardboot brethren when I roll up on this:( :o Have I worked, studied and trained so hard to be called a whore (although I really do like the analogy). It seems to me that the person called "coach" and the person called "instructor" have a lot in common, and are often distinguished by their "clients" or "athletes".

Oh yeah, I'm an instructor. Or am I a coach. Maybe you all can help me figure it out.

Some days I take a private lesson with some one I've never met, sometimes even a hradbooter (gasp!), and I talk to them, get to know them as much as possible, find out their goals and help them make their snowboard do what they want it to do.

Some days I take a private lesson with a client that I have been working with for several seasons. We talk about work, kids, hobbies, exchange drinking stories, and I continue to help them progress towards a big pivture goal with their riding, tweaking here and there for the day's conditions, etc. We might discuss tuning or ways they can build muscle at home to make their riding better given their setup.

Most days, I work with a staff of snowboard instructors, who are working towards professional goals, in riding and in understanding the nuances of snowboarding, teaching, coaching and learning. They also have riding goals. For most, this involves many discussions, chairlift rides and homework assignments, all personalized. When they go to cert exams, if they chose to, I go with them (okay, I'm there anyways...) and support them as best I can with advice and feedback based on thier perceptions of the day. I have been working with some instructors for 6 years.

I was hired as a race coach for a week lasy season. I worked with the UVA snowboard team for a week, running slalom and gs. 70% of the work we did was away from the gates, although 100% of the work was on skills they needed in the gates. I left the team with detailed training drills and concpets to continue to work on for the season.

So what am I? I have my own idea, but I'm interested in what you all have to say

BTW- Dragonfly: I heard you're a great coach and I wanted to share something with you (not a flame, just a moment of clarity). Although almost all of the riders at the three mountains that I am a staff trainer at are AASI certified, I can tell 75% of the riders from the botom of a lift. To me, they each have their own unique style. Lots of hardbooters at Stratton, and I always looked at them and thought "Wow, they are all making the exact same trn down the length of the mountain. There were a few exceptions, for sure, dudes who made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, but that was my impression. Maybe I'll take a closer look from now on...

One more BTW- I'll be in Copper to ride in a week, and it sems like some of you fellas may be from that neck of the woods. Beers?

Thanks for letting me join in- KC

[Phil]

Welcome KC,

There is no doubt in my mind that staff training - specifically for cert. training is coaching.

I think that what is happening in this thread is that coaching and teaching for snowboarding are BEING defined. I think that I agree with most of what has been said by those in the industry. Actually, I think that Noah hit the nail on the head to start off with and then the industry people basically agreed.

As far as what you are?

Private lessons with the same person over time can be coaching IMO. These are usually people with specific goals (that may change over time). Other times, there are just people who come back for private instruction again and again. In those cases you are a teacher (again, IMO).

Just a few thoughts - maybe I'll weigh in again later.

[philfell]

I have years of snowboard coaching and years of snowboard instructing behind me. Trust me there is a big differance, simply haveing the same person in your lessons for an extended period of time is still so far from what a true coach does.

Example today. I spent four, that's right four, hours on the phone, and more time spent sending out emails. I talked to a parent in Cali about setting up a training schedule for her daughter that would allow her to train with us early season, and during her school breaks, that would still allow her to remain at her own school and make it to her state high school races, USASA races, and a few FIS races. When I got done talking with them I talked to an Athlete in Washington about moving to PC and training with us this year. Then I talked to Copper working on housing arrangements for our training camp in Nov. we have to come up with lodging that works for our group (we will have 15 athletes training a total of nine days, racing two of them, but the catch is not all of them are going to be there the entire time, so I have to work with the group service people to make a plan so everyone gets a bed and no one has to pay extra due to beds not being taken on certain days). When I was done here I taked to another local Athlete about the seasons training schedule and working on a plan that will allow her to get the amount of hill time she needs, while being able to work so she can pay for the season. Then I did my ritual of looking through the local paper to try to find housing for some of the athletes that are going to be moving here for the winter. After that I talked with a great family on the east coast who will be training some days with us at Copper. Then I emailed our team director to give him updates on how our trip planning is coming and to see which of my athletes still need to get their paperwork in (there is so much paperwork to deal with because of insurance reasons) before we go to Copper.

Tomorrow will consist of getting in touch with Copper again and seeing what our group sales person found for us then crunching numbers to tell everyone what the cost will be. Sounds easy but not so. With people not staying the entire time, the possibility of a few athletes from smaller teams training with us and gas prices figureing cost for each individual is more of an educated guess than anything. Oh, yeah I have to start looking at airfare and lodging for our next event in Dec soon also. Then I have to collect money from everyone, because right now the deposites are on my credit card. Then hope someone doesn't back out and make me have to tell everyone else that the price I gave them is going to be higher because xxxxx bailed out when they said they would go and I got a condo that is too big and since it's too close to Thanksgiving we are stuck with the big condo. Or someone changes their mind the other way and decides to go last minute, now we are stuck with a condo too small, good news everyone the cost will be cheaper, but now someone may have to share beds (trying to get adults to share a bed is a nightmare) or sleep on the floor (which nine trips out of ten I sleep outside) and we'll be packed in with no space to put all of our gear.

There is soooooo much more I could tell you about what I do as a coach. Let me know if you do anything close to this as an instructor, I know I didn't. Most of what I consider work is done off the hill out of sight of my athletes. When I'm on the hill that's just a job perk. And what a perk it is.

[Phil]

Nope, nothing even close. I will not argue that you are a great coach. I have been reading your posts here for a long time and I know that you know your stuff. Does that mean that if someone is not as involved as you that they are not a coach? The teacher who shows up for a few weeks a year to coach a high school team - are they a coach? The less dedicated only have to show up for practice and meets/games/matches. Then they have to go to a few parents meetings and coaches meetings. They are still coaches though, right? And almost none of their work is done away from the playing field. When one of my students who competes (though we do not have an FS team) continually comes back to me so that I can help him be a more successful competitor, am I not a coach? When I have ongoing conversations via email with my students year round about their riding and the concepts that they need to think about 'til next season, am I not a coach? When I have at least 30 instructors that aspire to some level of certification (whether you see that as an important goal or not) and I work with them all season (some for up to 7 seasons at a time) to help attain this goal, am I not a coach?

I don't believe that it is the overall level of involvement in an athletes life that distinguishes one as a coach - it is what distinguishes YOU as a great coach.

The fact still remains that some people come for a day - we teach them. Some people always come back - maybe many times a year - and we teach them.

Others have goals and continue to come to you regularly to help them attain those goals through the years - we coach them.

I hope that I don't ever have to get as in depth as you do at coaching, but that does not mean that I am not a coach. Is that my primary job? No, I am an instructor/trainer who has a few athletes that I am lucky enough to coach - but they can take care of their own lodging - I am not THAT dedicated.

[Phil]

In addition, there is definitely a difference between one who is a full time coach (or close to full time) and one who has a day job and coaches a couple nights a week. I look at our race team and have a lot of respect for the coaches who give so much of their time even though they work a regular work week. They are coaches and NOT instructors, but they would not be doing all of the things on your list either. I probably cannot speak for them (they are members - maybe they can chime in) but I know that they do a lot with what little time they are afforded.

Many people who I have coached over the years did not come in during my work hours. I knew that they would need more, so I scheduled them when I would not normally work. Again, I am an instructor/trainer, but I have also coached.

That brings me to another point. In one year, I referred 5 people to the race team. 3 of these people were people that I considered myself to coach. 2 were just students that I regularly instructed. However I knew that there would be a better program for them, so I referred them out to the team. They were much better served. That did not mean that I was not their coach initially, it just meant that there were two coaches that could invest more in them than I could.

I don't like that this post has been made to sound like it is about me, that is not what I meant at all. Rather, I believe that coaching and teaching ARE two different things, but who is to say that an instructor does not do both at different times?