philfell Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Phil, I never meant to put anyone down, or what they do down. I was simply trying to put some of the differances between coaching and instructing clearly. If I came accross this way I am sorry. What I laid out in my previous post isn't something unique that I do. It is part of the job description, Thedo from Steamboat spends much of his days doing the same thing (although thier program is so big they have a travel agent they work with), Chuck has done it for years, etc. To me it's what you do off the snow that make the true differance between coaching and instructing. If you show up weakly and teach people how to run gates, to me just because you are teaching something competitive dosen't make you a coach. To me coaching is so much more than on snow stuff, because it's off the snow where the major improvement are made. To use an example of your. A teacher who shows up a few days a week to "coach" a sport are they still a coach? My answer NO. They would be a soccer teacher, or football teacher, if all they are doing is showing up and showing the kid how to play. It's the high school coach who shows up on the field and shows the kids how to play, then gets to know the kids family life to make sure that the parents are informed on thier kids performance and things they could do to help thier kid improve while not at pratice. Then organizes summer leagues so they can keep their skills improving year round. Gets video of the pros to show how the game is played at the most elite level, gets video of opposing teams to show the kids what to expect. Educate the kids about nutrition, and general exercise to help them become well rounded athletes. Again this is just my personal views on the subject. Their are pros and cons to both jobs, and they do overlap at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragon fly jones Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Some other stuff that is important and all, but I will not cross hairs here. Let's really break it down (coach style baby) and make these turns simple: From Websters: A teacher: 1 : one that teaches; especially : one whose occupation is to instruct 2 : a Mormon ranking above a deacon in the Aaronic priesthood A coach: now the first one describes a coach as a carriage from the olden days. Now this: 2 [from the concept that the tutor conveys the student through his examinations] a : a private tutor b : one who instructs or trains a performer or a team of performers; specifically : one who instructs players in the fundamentals of a competitive sport and directs team strategy And this for Instructor: one that instructs : TEACHER; especially : a college teacher below professorial rank To wit: in this strict unbiased definition, a instructor is below a coach, not my bias mind you. The definitions do have some crossover arguements that can be made, but for non arguements sake let's all continue to play nice. And now some manufactured arrogance. For now and always, Phil, Noah and Kent and all other coached should all be recoginzed as snowboard professors. Okay that was a little joke. So save the raised hackles and indignation. Now having said that: A real point. I am surpised that no one (no one) did this yet. Let's get down to brass tacks and if we want an definition (as defined by an unbiased source) based discourse, let's start from these points. I love that the intlectuals (bad spelling there for sure) amoung us can debate this at will and I do know that this does not even cover what a snowboard coach or snowboard instructor does or does not have in the job description. But this should serve as a better jumping off point and really point out what a coach does (hardly but),by breaking it down to it's simplest thing and then grow it out into a informed thoughtful and dedicated response. HA! Only a coach can come up with this. Assey my assy - KIDDING KIDDING - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Phil (Fell): sounds to me that some of what you're describing would fall under a job description more like "Team Manager". I don't dispute the difference between coach and instructor as everyone has been discussing, but I'm just saying you're doing more. Maybe you need to ask for a raise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 As far as being labeled a Team Manager... Uh-Uh. It goes beyond that too. Whoah, did not mean to label him a Team Manager - just saying that some of what he does would fall under that job description. To me, arranging housing and travel plans is something that any person with good organisation skills can do. Sounds like Phil just wears a lot of hats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickie Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Neil, I see you were not labeling. Sorry for any confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickmove Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Definitions are like statistics Dragonfly...especially with no context. Wait a minute, are you really apllying websters definitions to snowboarding???? But I do see your point, Since "I" follows "C" in the dictionary, instructors must be below coaches. How about this- there has also been no distinction made here about the differences between new instructors and seasoned pros. I use the word pro, because there are many of us, despite what some may think, who have put in the time, dedication and study to be regarded as professionals. I'm a sensitive little guy, so my feeling get hurt easy :( This is sweet- KC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 According to the dictionary definition, I would be a teacher, because it is my profession to instruct. I pose a new question, if coaches are defined as training teams, who's training coaches?? instructors?? i think so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 No, the team manager is my boss. His job entails: making sure I'm meeting the needs of my athletes. Making sure the head freestyle coach is doing his job up to par. Setting the budget for the year. Organizing fund raising events. Paying bills (making sure I and the rest of the coaches have paychecks, finding and paying for team room space at the mountain, workmans comp and liability insurance, phone services) Dealing with Team sponsers. Organizing our regional snowboard series in which is also used as part of our fundraising. Keeping close ties with local mountains to insure we can use thier facilities and giving them feedback to help improve what we can offer as a team. Hiring coaches (this year we've added another race coach along with two more freestyle coaches). Listening to myself and other coaches on what we need to do our job to the highest standard and making it happen or telling us it can't happen and coming up with a comprimise that works. And much more that I don't even know about because I've never been a team manager so I don't know all that he does when I'm not there. Yes I do wear many hats, that is the differance between a teacher and a coach. ALL coaches at this level do what I do, I am not the exception. Although I do take my job more seriously than some, but that's becuase I strive to be the best. Thanks for the kind words Nickie, we'll be on snow soon. One other thing, this is a personal pet peeve of mine. When instructers give themselves the label of PRO implying that they are PRO snowboarders. You aren't a pro snowboarder. You are a professional snowboard INSTRUCTER. There is a big differance (we don't need to start another thread though). Just like me, there was a time when I was a pro snowboarder. Not anymore, now I'm a prefessional snowboard coach. I get paid to coach snowboarding, I do NOT get paid to snowboard. Just like instructers they do NOT get paid to snowboard they get paid to TEACH people how to snowboard, and in some cases get paid to TEACH people how to teach snowboarding (giving instructer clinics and such). Again I'm not trying to insult anyone, I just think people need to be real with themselves, drop their egos and look through clear eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 ak rider to answer your question...... The school of life gets coaches where they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickmove Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 should have read:seasoned pro instructors. Thought I wouldn't have to repeat that word. Maybe some insight will help. Instructors have been bashed a little on this thread. Not by everyone, but none the less, I want riders (and coaches) to know that there are some of us who take their jobs very seriously, no doubt as seriously as you take your job. I'm not trying to compare my job to yours, just me dedication to it. It smokes me that I work as hard and as long as I have, and do my best to go above and beyond the call of duty, and have people see the word "snowboarder" by my name and immediately rule me out. It seems as though there are those on this sight who may look at the word "instructor" in a similar light. I am a professional. -KC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4powder Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Whatever. With all due respect, Most professionals I know don't have to insist that they are. ________ YourBettina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Most people know: Golf Pro: Professional golf instructor at a local course. Pro Golfer: Golf athlete getting paid to golf. Tennis Pro: Professional tennis instructor at a local club. Pro Tennis player: Tennis athlete getting paid to play. I could go on, but you get my point. Professional instructors (of many sports) AKA: Local Pro, Club Pro, Resort Pro, Industry Pro. I don't think that the public mistakes any of these for "Pro Athlete". I also would hope that no instructor would make that mistake either. I have not heard any instructors mistake that distinction, but I have not been EVERYWHERE. Shame on any that make that mistake - especially (gasp) on purpose. (Yeah, man, I am a pro:eek: ) I used to teach tennis under a local pro. I would never had called myself a teaching pro, but he was. No one mistook him for a pro athlete, though. Bordy called instructors whores - well, whores are pros too.:D Our mountain used to have every instructor have "pro" on their badge. That practice has stopped, and I am glad. Like me in teaching tennis, some people are not their for a career, but to get the perks (season pass and such). Most professionals I know don't have to insist that they are. Most professionals are not having their credentials questionned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 While true, an accountant doesn't walk around saying they're a pro accountant, I believe athletes do refer to themselves as professionals if they get paid. And if we want to break it down in a similar fashion as to using dictionary definitions a person is a professional whatever because whatever is their profession, their main job and main source of income. If your profession is a snowboard instructor than that would make you a professional instructor. I believe it is warranted to refer to yourself as a professional because there are many instructors who only do it part time and have another main job, or profession if you will :D If 2 people do the same activity but it's one person's profession and the other person's hobby, in most cases the person whose profession it is is going to have more dedication and work harder than the person who is just doing a hobby. anyway, i may have gotten a bit abstract here, but all i'm trying to say is IMO it's ok for a person to call themself a professional snowboard isntructor if it's their main source of income and it's their career. and that there is a difference between a pro instructor and an instructor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 i've been giving this topic thought, and i don't think you can compare instructors vs coaches, because, while yes they are very similar, they are still 2 different jobs and it cannot be said which is better or more important because they are different. both important to the sport, coaches take care of people who want to compete and isntructors take care of people who just want to get better, outside of the competition realm. and on a humurous note(don't want anyone to take this too seriously) aren't all you coaches glad there are instructors out there so when you get an athlete you can focus on helping them improve in competion instead of having to teach them how to get off the lift ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickmove Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Well said. Can't wait to ride. Three days away!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Well, there's actually 3 definitions of professional that I'm aware of. In Canada, you're a professional if there is a governing body which is independant but has the power of the law behind it. This covers a fairly narrow range of people - doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, etc. In each case the governing body controls who can practice and can kick you out if you screw up. Then there's the dictionary definition of professional which is whether or not you get paid. I was for one summer a professional convenience store clerk. But for most people just getting paid is not enough to label someone a pro, but then the narrow doctor/lawyer/engineer thing also doesn't apply. You have to be strongly qualified and be pursuing a lifelong career in most people's minds. So the kid that got his level 1 and is spending a season or two teaching the beginners is not a pro by the first definition, is a pro by the second definition but wouldn't really be thought of as a pro by most people in the grey-area definition they use. I wouldn't think of him as a pro. I'd consider his boss a pro. I'd consider the level 3 guys that have made this a real career as pros. And of course I'd consider paid coaches as pros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skully Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Sorry to resurect this one, but one thought has been running through my head when I think about this. Nothing to do with definitions of Instructor / Coach / Pro, etc..... Just a comment. It has been my experience in this in the snowboard coaching and instructing business (And probably the whole snowsports business in general) that most of the people who do it, (teach / coach, etc.) do it for pure love of the sport, not for the money.... Whether you are a coach or an instructor, being given the opportunity to share something you are passionate about with others is pretty cool. Whether it's teaching someone to link their first turns on a board, or coaching someone to a podium spot, I personally think being a part of that is great.... My .02 Italian Lira.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Sorry to resurect this one, but one thought has been running through my head when I think about this. I'd rather have this thread resurrected than the "OT - waaaaaaaay OT" thread.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Camp starts on the 10th of Nov. I'll be on snow then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickmove Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 It's a shame that someone like Chris thinks that we (AASI) are a bunch of geeks.:( Of course there is a difference between coaching a team or individual, and teaching a snowboard lesson. I still think, based on my experience with coaches, that there is very little difference between a great coach and a great instructor, besides the environment that they work in. This statement is based on the volume of high level instructors I know (AASI Education Staff) that have become competitive coaches. Thanks for letting me play. Try to overlook the PSIA bs. That was a long time ago and we're working dilligently to be seen as snowboarders again, not a ski instructors with snowboard equipment. SYOTH, KC Gandee AASI Snowboard Team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jschal01 Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 "besides the environment that they work in" is I think the key here. I don't think that many students taking lessons really want to be coached, and most also overestimate their ability quite a bit...and they also expect to be riding better immediately as a result of any "lesson" changes. And they expect to have fun. So, a great deal of time is spent in the typical group lesson sorting groups at the start, finding bathrooms when someone needs to go, dealing with ego issues, dealing with equipment issues -- any learning or technique improvement is a bonus. I have in the past personally still had some of my greatest riding improvements come out of group lessons that I took in low season, and I have always been grateful to the instructors as a result, as in each case I could see that they were having to deal with all the other "stuff" and still trying to give something of value technique-wise to the 2 or so in the group who wanted it. Even resort specialty camps, though, seem to have a heavy emphais on the fun and outdoor experience factors. A week-long camp that promised to break down your technique, spending a lot of time on nonchallenging terrain, and leaving you feeling clumsy and out of sorts relative to the riding level you came to the camp with, on the promise that it would pay dividends for your riding when it all came together -- preferably one that made you prepay your tip at the start of the week so that the instructors could bark at you without worrying about pissing you off -- that would be really great, and really unfeasible from a commercial perspective I think. It would then basically be the same as coaching for a short duration, logistical stuff aside. I suppose one could still get that through a series of privates or by getting a group together and asking for that type of experience, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Kleh Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Had to put my two cents in. I have taught for 6 years at two different major resorts in CO and finally gave up on teaching for resorts altogether. I'm AASI Cert I and never felt like the organization gave as much as it took. I mean, $85 a year for a lousy magazine (that has become completely freestyle-oriented)? Having the Cert didn't raise my pay much, 50 cents an hour over 6 years. If you stop teaching for a year or two, AASI wants back dues and money for back courses! But what irks me the most is the amount of ego in instructors (not all of them, there are some compassionate, caring individuals that keep on giving a good lesson despite all the attitude surrounding them). I enjoyed teaching the actual classes, but I hated all the holier and smarter than thou types that love to impress students and other instructors with their superior vocabulary but couldn't care less if the concept is understood. Get over yourself. It's not about you, it's about the student! If you want to be a star, go to Hollywood. PSIA/AASI-bots have left a bad taste in my mouth. They refer to their AASI manuals like bibles and call any creative ideas that are not in the manual heresy. Anyone that wants to go anywhere in snowboard school (ie being assigned anything but a class of 14 never-evers twice a day) has to be a full-on yes-man. Did you ever notice that the big-headed instructor types never teach kids? Kids see thru that BS in a NY minute. I think many go into ski and snowboard instruction for the same reason some people become cops. They like to have control and have others "under them" kiss their butts. I'll teach for the National Sports Center for the Disabled because their motives are more pure, but never again for a snowboard school. It seems their biggest goal is to make every instructor feel not good enough. I've always gotten more out of my own employees by building them up. I know this will get some folks riled up, but I had to speak my peace. snow goddess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skully Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 I know this will get some folks riled up, but I had to speak my peace. Yep, you got me riled up! (But not in a negative way...) Just wanted to agree with you. You speek the truth. Thanks for your comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Cindy, I don't think that you got me riled up. I believe everything that you have said. I am really bummed out that this was your experience. I really hope that this is not the same everywhere. I, like you, have only taught at two mountains but this was not my experience at either one - especially not the kids thing. All of the best instructors that I know love teaching kids. Also, I feel that the organization has done a lot for me. The examiners have taken time out of their schedules to work with me for free on many occasions. I feel that AASI has given me the tools to do my job better. Of course, they are not the be all and the end all of snowboarding, but I have never felt that they have claimed to be. I have also never felt like people saw the manual as the Bible. To me, it is just a good starting point for exploring snowboard instruction. Snowboarding, and snowboarding instruction obviously go a lot deeper and farther than the manual possibly could. It seems to me that once you pass level II, you don't even hear much about the manual anymore (just on the LIII written exam). For L III, I believe that you are encouraged to think outside of the box a little instead of just blurting back anything that you have read in the manual. Of course this is just my experience, and obviously, you have had a different experience - I am sorry to hear that. I am glad that you are still in the industry in spite of your experience. ? - What do you think of the AASI forum and the people on it? I would like to hear some honest feedback about that too. Thanks. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Kleh Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 (I forgot to mention the cool things.) I had some beautiful moments out on the hill teaching and I learned alot about people and how to teach effectively. The clinics offered by the school were also valuable. Maybe I should cool down and read things over before I hit "submit reply." :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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