Somewhat O/T: snow-worthy cars

[Mike T]

I'm thinking about replacing my '98 Durango with something smaller and less, um, thirsty. The Durango was actually very good in the snow for a vehicle its size, with it's full-time 4WD, when outfitted with a set of studded tires. But it's just so.... heavy. Once it does lose traction, it takes a while to get it back. Various parts of the suspension have needed replacement over the summer and I don't expect it to ever handle quite the same.

I definitley plan to look at Subaru Outbacks and Foresters. What other wagons/small SUVs are worth looking at in the <=30k price range? Whatever I get needs to be OK on decently-maintained dirt/gravel/washboard but no need for a serious offroading. Nothing fancy, just dependable and utilitarian.

Regarding Subarus - any sugestions on options for the best snow experience? Their site seems to indicate that the 4WD works differently on manual vs automatic tranny for example. I'm planning to test drive all the 3 engines, looking for the right balance between performance and economy.

Any thoughts or recommendations would be helpful. I know I could spend more and get a T-Reg or a Volvo, but I really don't want to go much over 30K.

[Guest Randy S.]

Mike,

I've been extremely happy with my Acura MDX. It is as big as the Durango but a WAY better car. It gets decent mileage (over 21 hiway), has all sorts of nice things in it (Nav, Leather, etc.) and is good in the snow (with the right tires). Maintenance is a joke until you get to 100K miles (at which point you need to put a couple grand into it for plugs, timing belt, struts). Until then it is basically oil and tires. I got stuck in it once, when I drove it out onto the top of a ski hill and got off the part where the sno cat had been.

The only problem with it was a transmission issue which was a recall item on the 2001. I have 110K on mine and figure it will go at least another 110K for me. Check out www.acuramdx.org for a discussion forum on them. The Honda Pilot is basically the same truck without as much fancy stuff in it and a different skin.

The newer ones have slightly more powerful engines than mine. The navigation system in Acuras is the best I've seen (Lexus/Toyota is probably number two in my book).

[Guest Randy S.]

I should have said that the MDX is as big as the Durango on the inside. Outside I think the Acura is smaller than the Durango. It also can't tow as much as the Durango. IMO, Durango is a POS american truck. MDX is a great Honda car (only bigger and with AWD). It really drives like a car.

[Guest Randy S.]

This weekend I drove my sister's LLBean edition Scoobeedoo Outback wagon. That was nice. Subaru's still feel more plasticy to me than Acura's, but she likes it in the snow. Tires make all the difference. If I were buying my Acura again, I'd probably buy a spare set of wheels and mount snow tires on them. Then I could just swap out by myself come winter time.

[P06781]

I had a subaru 98 outback w/ the 2.5liter MT with studded tires and it was unstoppable in any condition ...ice, snow, slush. It got around 21-24mpg. I traded it in for a 05 Legacy Gt MT turbo wagon for a little performance fun (has sti 2.5 turbo engine). Its great, but some give it a bad rap because the poor mpg performance. My experience is if you drive the subaru turbos (legacy gt, outback xt, forester xt, wrx) like a leadfoot and put the car in boost range all the time like >2800rpms they dont do so well and get about 18-19mpg. However when you drive conservative you will easily get 24-28mpg. Another thing is that you can get a ECU reflash device (Cobb accessport) to change boost/timing ect. to load diffferent maps to increase performance or increase ecomony by limiting boost. People have been reporting 28-29mpg with the ecomony maps. Portland has a large group of performance subaru shops that can do almost anything from ecu reflashs to custom turbo setups. I would check out a outback xt if buying new or look for 2000-2004 outback if buying used.

Jim

[Mike T]

I should have said that the MDX is as big as the Durango on the inside. Outside I think the Acura is smaller than the Durango. It also can't tow as much as the Durango. IMO, Durango is a POS american truck. MDX is a great Honda car (only bigger and with AWD). It really drives like a car.

Thanks for the tips. If we decide we want something that size we'll look at the Pilot for sure. I've always been more of a "understated car" kinda guy so the MDX would be overkill - rather spend the extra money on snowboarding :D

[Mike T]

I would check out a outback xt if buying new or look for 2000-2004 outback if buying used.

Thanks for the tips Jim! I believe the 06's are tuned a bit differently than the '05s for more HP, but if I remember it was a mechanical change rather than firmware.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Tires make all the difference.

Most people could just buy a set of winter boots and skip spending the money on awd or 4wd.

[Guest Randy S.]

Most people could just buy a set of winter boots and skip spending the money on awd or 4wd.

Agreed.

Unless you live in CA, where the Caltrans Nazis make you have 4WD or require chains to get up the dang freeway. Its mostly because folks here drive on bald tires and have no clue what to do in rain, let along snow.

The best is when I see a moron with his chains on the wrong set of wheels. They always look so pathetic and stupid. I laugh because they just spent 1/2 hour in the cold and rain putting chains on and they're still stuck.

Oh, and the only cars you see in the ditch in CA? SUVs and Jeeps.

[Guest Randy S.]

Thanks for the tips. If we decide we want something that size we'll look at the Pilot for sure. I've always been more of a "understated car" kinda guy so the MDX would be overkill - rather spend the extra money on snowboarding :D

I'm the same way. When I bought it, MDX was the only option. Pilot didn't come out for 2 years after the MDX. Now the MDX costs almost $10K more, although it has more standard features, slightly more HP and more optional features (can't remember the details).

[Mellow Yellow]

I'm happy with my 04 Honda Element... of course people either like the way it looks or they don't! It's very functional in my opinion. Seats fold down into a lazyboyish bed..(nice for those nights that you decide you don't want to drive 2.5 hours home and 2.5 hours back to the resort) The interior is plastic and spartan... but that was actually a selling point for me....easy to clean... another reason I bought is was my daily driver was an 02 Cooper S... in the winter I threw steel wheels and Blizzaks on it and it did just fine.... only problem was that I was scared to death to scratch/stain/etc the interior.... and the mountain road leading to my new 'home' resort sometimes requires 4wheel or chains..... sooooo I traded in my S in on the lunch box.. I do miss her... :(

[Neil Gendzwill]

Agreed.

I used to have a Mustang SVO. Cool car, but the 50 series performance tires, light tail and rwd were a bad combination in the snow. So I sprung for some aggressive snow tires. I was living in Calgary at the time and headed out for Fortress one day, probably the worst access road of any of the local hills. It was the day after a big dump and that road was a parking lot, little front wheel drive cars and what not stuck all over the place. That Mustang just walked up the hill, sweet as you please, steering easily around all the stuck cars. We don't need no esteenking 4wd. Snow tires rock.

[Mike T]

...Whatever I wind up getting (or not getting - could still decide to invest a few more bucks in getting the Durango's suspension back up to snuff) will get snow tires. On my Durango the snow tires definirtley made more of a difference than the 4WD, but it was nice having both.

OR has similar chain laws as CA except that they don't enforce them anywhere near as forcefully. They don't have checkpoints but I have seen people get pulled over for not having them, more so in central OR than in PDX/Hood. (I would have expected the opposite).

Here, studded or other "traction" tires (as opposed to plain old "mud and snow") allow you to legally pass through unchained. I might try a set of Blizzaks instead of studs this time around. (Do they really work as well studs on big heavy vehicles? There were several days when I was REALLY glad to have studs when I was out early on big dumper days... ODOT is not known for clearing roads early!)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Never had studs. Blizzaks work like a hot damn when new, revert to being all-seasons once you get about halfway through the tread.

[nekdut]

I just picked up my new ride, a Subaru Legacy GT, wagon body, silver, 5spd manual. First off, this thing hauls ass! Out of the box, its 0-60 is in the 5 second range! I have yet to take it to the snow, but given Subaru's all weather reputation, I know I won't be disappointed.

Check out legacygt.com for a bunch of great info on this car, and its close relative, the Outback.

Randy: I hear ya on the chain issues here in CA. CHP sets up way too many checkpoints and tickets people when road conditions really don't require them at all. Putting chains on is such a PITA anyway.

[nekdut]

Mike, regarding fuel economy, the 2.5l turbos are not the most efficient things. I get around 22mpg with mixed freeway/city driving. Also the engine is so darn fun that it makes it hard to stay out of boost and save some gas :p

Pricewise, you can probably pick up an 05 fairly cheap. I got mine for $5k under sticker, after rebate.

[Justin A.]

Get a jeep. My family have been jeep owners for about 12 years now. You almost can't get them stuck. We drove up to waterville valley from derry in about 3 feet of snow with just about no problem. We've always had a grand cherokee. Great car. One time I accidentally drove it through a 6' puddle and it came out roaring on the other side. If peace of mind is what you're after in a vehicle, a jeep is the way to go.

On the other hand, I have a saab and this was its first winter. It did good, but I was wishing for more Ground clearance during some of the bigger storms. Takes a long time to break loose, and its very predictable once it does.

(you want a jeep for snow though)

happy hunting.

-Justin

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COMPARISON OF HYBRIDS

[Jack M]

IMO the only use for an SUV is if you postively need 3rd row seating and off-road capability, which is possible if you're a skiing family and your kids want to bring friends and your cabin is at the end of a long dirt road. Otherwise, I think they are overweight and generally misused. The extra weight increases your odds of sliding off the road, and also rolling over.

That said, I am a big fan of the Outback. I really don't like the Forrester. It's the wannabe Outback, and I don't like the look of it. And I think it's a favorite among lesbians. "Not that there's anything wrong with that" - it's just not the image I'm after.

I would love an Outback XT or Legacy GT Wagon, but I would definitely chip that thing as soon as I got it. The stock fuel consumption is abysmal. I believe there are chips/flashes out there that allow you to change power maps on the fly - like from economy to sport or valet or whatever. I'd research that heavily.

I'd probably go for the turbo over the 6cyl because turbos afford more flexibility with software. For example, I could chip my VW Passat and get 38hp more out of the 1.8 liter turbo engine, taking it to 208hp. The V6 can only get like a 12hp gain from a chip. Speaking of VW, you might also consider a Passat GLS wagon with 4-motion (all wheel drive). But if you need a little extra ground clearance, the Outback wins. Long term cost of ownership on the Outback might be a bit lower too, but if you buy cars every 75-100k miles, it's probably a wash. Very happy with my Passat, very comfortable ride and the 1.8T in stock trim has good pep. But my next car will probably be an Outback.

One drawback to a turbo is having to buy premium gas - which really stings right now. But I think the suby H6 and VW V6 need premium too...?

[kjl]

I have an Impreza sedan, a 2.5 RS from before they sold the WRX, and I really like it. Drives like a car, not a truck, and is fairly fun and zippy, and of course AWD.

Mileage is embarrassingly bad - ~21-23 MPG usually.

Every weekend I drive to Tahoe I kick myself for not getting a wagon.

[Hagen]

If I had to buy a car today I would probably go for an Outback.

But I had to make the decision almost 2 years back - before Subaru came out with the current Legacy/Outback. Didn't like the styling of the Outback too much back the. But I was looking at the WRX - almost got one until I drove in my friends WRX. ...it's a little small for a family car, but fun to drive.

I bought a VW Passat station wagon with AWD - reasonably fun to drive and lots of space. The only problem that I have with it is ground clearance - had to stop once or twice on a dirt road to get some rocks out of the way... And I also got stuck once in the snow, was on a dirt road though... ..but that is a reason for me to go with a car that has more ground clearance next time - i.e. the Outback.

Or if I had the money - I would probably get the Audi Allroad... :D

Hagen.

[Mike T]

Those recommending the Turbo-equipped Subes... is it because the baseline models are completeley insufficient in the power departmnet, or just because the Turbo gives it "toy" value?

[nekdut]

That said, I am a big fan of the Outback. I really don't like the Forrester. It's the wannabe Outback, and I don't like the look of it. And I think it's a favorite among lesbians. "Not that there's anything wrong with that" - it's just not the image I'm after.

The Outback does get you some extra ground clearance, but you'll get smaller brakes and a softer suspention for those off road excursions.

I would love an Outback XT or Legacy GT Wagon, but I would definitely chip that thing as soon as I got it. The stock fuel consumption is abysmal. I believe there are chips/flashes out there that allow you to change power maps on the fly - like from economy to sport or valet or whatever. I'd research that heavily.

I picked up the Cobb AccessPORT. Its a neat little device that plugs into the OBD2 port in the dash and lets you flash your own maps. They are very active in developing and refining their maps and I have been very happy with the results so far. Their stage 1 map netted me an additional 35hp, and really increased driveabiltiy (area under the torque curve :D ). They also have an economy map that you can switch to at any time, but I rarely do since I have too much fun at Stage 1. I'll probably use the econ map for the long drive to the mountains.

Check it out: http://cobbtuning.com/legacy/accessport.html

[nekdut]

Those recommending the Turbo-equipped Subes... is it because the baseline models are completeley insufficient in the power departmnet, or just because the Turbo gives it "toy" value?

The difference in power between the 2.5i and the 2.5GT is significant. The non-turbo Legacy feels like you're driving a 4cyl Toyota Camry, "not that there's anything wrong with that" :lol: .

[P06781]

Those recommending the Turbo-equipped Subes... is it because the baseline models are completeley insufficient in the power departmnet, or just because the Turbo gives it "toy" value?

I would say its the "toy value" as the na subarus have plenty power if you get a MT. I have heard the autos feel a little slow. The fun factor is so great with the turbo, its well worth the lower mpg. You can always drive like a grandma and get decent milege if you want. The cobb AP really makes the Gt's come alive. Go out and drive some and you will know what we mean.

Jim

[P06781]

If I had to buy a car today I would probably go for an Outback.

But I had to make the decision almost 2 years back - before Subaru came out with the current Legacy/Outback. Didn't like the styling of the Outback too much back the. But I was looking at the WRX - almost got one until I drove in my friends WRX. ...it's a little small for a family car, but fun to drive.

I bought a VW Passat station wagon with AWD - reasonably fun to drive and lots of space. The only problem that I have with it is ground clearance - had to stop once or twice on a dirt road to get some rocks out of the way... And I also got stuck once in the snow, was on a dirt road though... ..but that is a reason for me to go with a car that has more ground clearance next time - i.e. the Outback.

Or if I had the money - I would probably get the Audi Allroad... :D

Hagen.

Mike, You should check you the saabaru's 9-2x also. Its saab's rebadged wrx wagon and with that "GM employee discount pricing" you can get a loaded one for 19k . All the subaru mods work on it too. Its smaller than an outback but would work good with a skibox on top. Its has a 2liter boxer turbo.