ak_rider Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 The following is a copy of emails between myself and Burton. Me: why do you guys just sponsor freestyle events? what about the racers? Burton's Response: Hi Kat thanks for the email. There is just not as many into racing as freestyle right now. I could respond that at one time there weren't as many people in snowboarding as skiing but they didn't go out and sponsor skiing, but I just don't care that much anymore about a company who once cared about racing but has now turned their backs on us in favor of money and popularity. I wonder if it ever occured to any big company that if they started bringing attention back to racing it would gain in popularity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 I agree, it is sad that Burton has mostly turned its back on Alpine (except for www.klugriding.com). It is also somewhat hypocritical for a company that used to bill itself as providing all things snowboarding. HOWEVER... Burton is the number one snowboard company in the world. I'm pretty sure that the numbers two, three, four, or so snowboard companies in the world are ski companies. I can't really articulate why, but I wouldn't want to live in a world where the number one snowboard company was a ski company. So whatever Burton has to do to stay on top is fine with me. Mostly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icecoldsnow Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 Sponsorship money is spent by marketing men. Marketing men do not set trends , they follow them. Hard cheese, I know, but they'll only spend money on things they think will generate most return. Sure they may sell some extra gear for every $1,000 dollars they spend on sponsoring racing but they probably sell 10 times as much if they spent that same $1,000 on sponsoreeing freestyle. It is a simple commercial decision. It is not a question of which will make them money, rather which will make them MOST money given finite resources. My advice, just enjoy going racing and going fast and let the marketing men make their own mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 Icecoldsnow is right, since Burton has little to do with alpine riding nowadays, sponsoring an alpine event would make about as much sense as sponsoring a skiing event. I can't think of any reason that they should get back into alpine, if it doesn't make much money for them and they are doing well with freestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted June 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 I'm just using burton as an example, because the name is associated with snowboarding around the world. it's more frustration at the fact that this discipline of snowboarding is being ignored in favor of freestyle. I realize FS is what people like to watch, but I wonder if it's popular because that's what people want or because it's what's shown and given attention. Or maybe because taking off and landing is easier than carving. I just think that if a co as big as burton gave a little attention to racing it would turn more people on to it, thus progressing it the way FS has been progressing. If your argument is that alpine doesn't make money, does that mean donek and prior are losing money with their alpine boards? I also enjoy playing devil's advocate, which is why I started this thread:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 I'm assuming they weren't making much money because of all the old Burton alpine boards I used to (and sometimes still) see at shops being sold for pennies on the dollar. There are enough people to keep the small manufacturers going, but I don't think there are enough to wander into shops and buy boards. I hate to say it but even if I lived next door to a shop that sold alpine boards, I'd probably still be mostly looking for deals from friends and on ebay instead. It will be interesting to see what happens when Swoard starts selling their cheaper board through shops. I can see that kind of all-around alpine board becoming popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Originally posted by ak_rider I'm just using burton as an example, because the name is associated with snowboarding around the world. it's more frustration at the fact that this discipline of snowboarding is being ignored in favor of freestyle. I realize FS is what people like to watch, but I wonder if it's popular because that's what people want or because it's what's shown and given attention. Or maybe because taking off and landing is easier than carving. I just think that if a co as big as burton gave a little attention to racing it would turn more people on to it, thus progressing it the way FS has been progressing. If your argument is that alpine doesn't make money, does that mean donek and prior are losing money with their alpine boards? I also enjoy playing devil's advocate, which is why I started this thread:) Devil's advocate? You are saying exactly what a lot of people here have been griping about for years now :) If you do a search (useful feature) you should find a lot of threads on this topic. My opinions on this topic are well known (or expounded to point that no one cares anymore, which is basically the same thing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 They might be called 'Burton Snowboards'. I've long thought that Burton makes a good product for sale at a premium price. They've always been there to make things right and help keep the customer happy; good sales and service. You pay a little extra for both. JCP has long offered a similar business in catalog sales, clothing, furnishings, etc. But, I can't go into/call and order from JCP and buy high-end products. If I want better quality (and service) I've got to to specialty stores which carry those items I want. Burton has chosen to not market the high-end items. They continue to make a good product with good service with a very good profit margin. They've left the high-end to others. For that I'm glad. I dreamed of being able to afford carving equipment. Burton's departure from alpine let me know I'd have to look elsewhere for beginning alpine equipment years ago. That's when I found out about BOL, Catek, Donek, Coiler, etc. These companies may not be responsible for alpine racing in your area but, they do supply the carving and racing communities. And all the ES events. Perhaps, in time The B company might take notice of alpine sales and re-enter the market. Until then, click here to see Burton's continuing success in backcountry snowboarding. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 "Or maybe because taking off and landing is easier than carving." Huh??? Have you seen what these guys are doing in between their taking off and landing? Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. Then they float three 1080's back to back (in the pipe, that is a switch 10 in the middle or two switch 10's with a forward 10 in the middle)!!! Also remember that most pro freestylers can carve better than most of the hardbooters on this forum. (Now I can hear some of you getting ready to tell me how big your balls are ----- I said MOST not ALL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Burton to me is an image-"buy our outerwear and our goggles and our teeshirts...and, oh yeah, the snowboard will only last a year but you know...there's nothing like shopping for next year's gear".... I don't see it with the equipment I buy for other sports. My Treks get pounded far worse than my snowboard will-I don't expect them to last 1 year, I expect them to last many years.... And I have Burton boards-I just had the proverbial epiphany last year riding on a bus back to my truck...The riders had to hold their boards and the outside racks only accomodated skis. I watched these kids with their boards and I wondered who really "got" it...I began to think it wasn't me... As for freestyle, I find it rather boring-after a while, all the jumps start to look alike... Now, boardercross, that's fun to watch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 The longest that any burton board has lasted for me was two years. I have had quite a few last much less. However, as stated above, their customer service is top notch. It is just a shame that you have to use it. To be honest, I think that I would rather have crappy service and a board that would not break. No, actually I would like to have great service and a board that would not break. As far as the airs looking alike, I have to agree with you to an extent, but don't you think that most people look at a race and say "every racer is doing the same thing". To a trained eye, they are almost all doing something different - both on the jumps and on the course. I agree that boardercross is a happy medium. I will still always see Burton as the company that was really into racing (years ago). They simply had to follow the market. I am a member of AASI and they are doing the same thing. They are trying to prepare instructors to cater to the needs of a freestyle driven market. I don't see anything wrong with that as long as we are still trying to teach all other forms of riding as well. I really do not think that there is anything that Burton could do to revive the hardboot and/or racing market. These things are just trends. Right now popular culture is about being "extreme" and expressing yourself. This is just another manifestation of a post-modern culture. In another generation, we may get back to a more absolute type mindset in which we like to see people race against the clock. Who knows what the future will hold. If hardbooting/racing ever gets big again, I'll bet the big "B" will be right on it. BTW - in spite of the short lifespan of their boards, I really do think that they ride well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Originally posted by skatha As for freestyle, I find it rather boring-after a while, all the jumps start to look alike... Now, boardercross, that's fun to watch! Forget watching... start doing! :) I always have more fun that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 I realize the tricks that freestylers do between their taking off and landing are not easy by any means, but can this be called snowboarding or is it more gymnastics.I'd have to say the older freestylers can carve really well, but I've seen many younger freestylers who can barely turn and are out winning comps. It's just sad that anti auti is more well known in the U.S.for linking 1080's than chris klug is for respresenting this country to the world. and as far as devil's advocate goes, I knew my views would go against what a lot of people think, and...who's to say I'm not the devil:D after all, I am disagreeing with the all powerful oz, i mean burton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Originally posted by ak_rider I realize the tricks that freestylers do between their taking off and landing are not easy by any means, but can this be called snowboarding or is it more gymnastics.I'd have to say the older freestylers can carve really well, but I've seen many younger freestylers who can barely turn and are out winning comps. It's just sad that anti auti is more well known in the U.S.for linking 1080's than chris klug is for respresenting this country to the world. and as far as devil's advocate goes, I knew my views would go against what a lot of people think, and...who's to say I'm not the devil:D after all, I am disagreeing with the all powerful oz, i mean burton Everything you just said again has been said before (including the thought that why should aerials be called snowboarding if you board isn't touching the snow... blah blah blah). Most people on this particular forum (not in the world in general) agree with your views to some degree... hence you are not the devil's advocate. There is little love here for Burton or freestylers (respect, but not love) in general. I know you are trying to be *special* but alas you are not :) Welcome brother ! Join our ranks, learn how to use the search feature to read old threads, and become one with the Carve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 I have had a many that I beat the piss out of and held up as well anything out there. they have made some great stuff and continue to, even alpine stuff just under a different name and where there is a realistic market for it(japan). I have destroyed allot of their gear too but it always was taken care of by the nice folks in burlington. the only thing I miss are their hardboots, mainly because they were always easy to find in a time of need and if you had a failure you would get a new pair in a week or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 1) If it wasn't for Jake, Tom Sims, Chuck B, and Dmitri M (but really - it was Jake who had the vision to make it bigger than it was) you would be skiing all winter - Stop complaining. Burton does what he wants to do - it's his company. 2) Totally agree w/ bobdea - The only thing I really miss about burton is the boots... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Originally posted by ak_rider I wonder if it's popular because that's what people want or because it's what's shown and given attention. Burton DID give Alpine a lot of attention for many years. So much so that the world cup became a Burton parade year after year. They had their race boards, boots, and bindings right there in the main catalog along with everything else, and the catalogs had pictures of carvers throughout. In '95, a carver even graced one of two covers they used for the catalog. (hmm - maybe that was an experiment. I wonder if they asked all their retailers to return any unused catalogs at the end of the season to see how many carver catalogs they got back) Recently I dug out my old "<b>Scream of Consciousness</b>" Burton video from '92. There are alpine and race segments all through it - including footage of Jeff Brushie racing in a Super-G, complete with full-face helmet and speed suit. So Burton tried, and for a long time. I think the market just shrunk out from under them, to a level below their threshold. (although I can't believe splitboards make more money for Burton than Alpine did, so why are they making them?) I do think they could have made a more dignified exit from the sport though. They tried to slink out the back door as if nobody would notice. If it weren't for Chris Klug, I doubt they'd be in it at all. ps - utahcarver - Burton makes some very high end gear, like the T6 and Custom X boards, and the C60 and Fusion bindings. hello?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 "gymnastics" Yep - as a matter of fact, Danny Kass was coached by Phoebe Mills for a while. That does not make him less of a snowboarder though. He is still better than most of us during those brief times that he is on the ground. "I'd have to say the older freestylers can carve really well, but I've seen many younger freestylers who can barely turn and are out winning comps." While that may be true at the local (maybe even regional) level, it is not true in the pro ranks. The problem at the local level is that skateboarders come out to local jams just to hit a rail or jump, but cannot ride the board. I have seen kids roll into the park on every body part but no board - then they hop on a rail and stomp it better than I could - doing all sorts of sick slides. Then they come off of the end and can't ride the board down the hill. These kids are most likely great skateboarders, but the translation between boards (as we all know) is not direct. They are probably great athletes as well, but until they learn to turn, they will not go far on the snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Originally posted by bobdea I have had a many that I beat the piss out of and held up as well anything out there. they have made some great stuff and continue to, even alpine stuff just under a different name and where there is a realistic market for it(japan). I have destroyed allot of their gear too but it always was taken care of by the nice folks in burlington. the only thing I miss are their hardboots, mainly because they were always easy to find in a time of need and if you had a failure you would get a new pair in a week or less. I got a Feelgood ES and some P1 Carbon bindings with capstraps...The Feelgood reportedly has their "infinite ride" technology. I will be using both more this next season, given that my 03 Custom is noodling out after about 15 days on the hill-no jumps, no rails, just learning the ropes- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted June 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 I know you are trying to be *special* but alas you are not Welcome brother ! Join our ranks, learn how to use the search feature to read old threads, and become one with the Carve... hey lonerider, seems like you're the one trying to be "special" by acting all high and mighty and trying to tell me what I'm doing by posting and to learn to use search. If this topic's been exhausted you don't have to read it, let alone reply to it several times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Originally posted by ak_rider hey lonerider, seems like you're the one trying to be "special" by acting all high and mighty and trying to tell me what I'm doing by posting and to learn to use search. If this topic's been exhausted you don't have to read it, let alone reply to it several times. You are partially right... I was just giving you a hard time by making fun of you a little (the smily faces imply joking). I wouldn't normally tease a newcomer to the forum, but from the tone of your post if seemed like you were game to a little "interference" and I thought it would obvious. I apologize if you got offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted July 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 not offended, it's all good. judt glad to find a place where i'm not in the minority because i choose to carve instead of do laps in the park:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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