Jack M Posted May 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 I loved it - that's not quite the right word for such a dark movie, but I don't know what else to say. It's rather disturbing. Vader is a real tragedy. Not that I didn't know it was coming, but I didn't know how. It's sort of weird to end a 28 year old story on such a melancholy note. I will choose to believe that the Emperor is dead at the end of episode 6, because that's just a nice tidy way to end the saga. I'd rather not see it turn into a never ending story. I think. Maybe I'll feel differently in another 20 years when Lucas Jr. makes 7,8,9. I just hope they find someone who looks as much like Mark Hammil as Ewan McGreggor looks like Sir Alec Guiness. This movie is obviously the best of these 3, and I agree with Kevin Smith's comments at the top of this thread. Bravo to George Lucas. I can't even begin to list all the things I liked about this movie, so I'll just make a few nitpicks. I've made peace with the fact that either Hayden Christiansen and Natalie Portman are crappy actors, or their abilities were stifled and retarded by lousy writing/directing. I've accepted the fact that we are just not going to get believable romantic dialog out of them, and this movie is no exception. Oh well. But they did do a decent job of escorting Christiansen's character through his transformation to the dark side. SPOILERS below... Jar Jar's appearance at the end profanes an otherwise important scene. Was that really necessary George? I guess that's his way of saying "I'm the boss". At least he didn't let the toad talk. Things that don't jive with the original series: Anakin's voice is all wrong. How are we supposed to believe that he picked up an African accent after being burned? That's not really a criticism of ep 3, just a general comment. But it's too bad he couldn't have trained his voice a little deeper for this episode. Obi Wan and Anakin are about a thousand times more handy with their lightsabers in their duel in ep 3 than 4 - understandible for the old and out of practice ep 4 Kenobi, but logic would say that ep 4 Vader would have ginsued old Ben in about half a second, judging from his mad skills in this movie. R2D2 - somewhere between ep 3 and 4 he loses his ability to LEAP out of starfighters, spray oil slicks, catch objects thrown at him, and speed along at about 25mph. Huh?? At the very end of the movie where we see Vader and the Emperor in the imperial cruiser, all of a sudden we're back to 1977 spaceship control panel technology? Clones/Stormtroopers - are we to believe that the troopers in ep 4 are a new batch of clones made from someone without the latin accent? Anakin's head - We never see him get those huge lacerations we see when it is revealed in episode 6. And in ep 6 he's got eyebrows and very little trace of the severe burning he suffers in this movie. But those things didn't make me enjoy the movie any less. I thought it kicked ass. I'm definitely going to have to see it again to absorb it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Michaud I've made peace with the fact that either Hayden Christiansen and Natalie Portman are crappy actors, or their abilities were stifled and retarded by lousy writing/directing. As they've both given excellent performances in other movies, I'm going with option B - Lucas can't write his way out of a paper bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Michaud I will choose to believe that the Emperor is dead at the end of episode 6, because that's just a nice tidy way to end the saga. I agree---I'm sure the Emperor is history. I really don't see what writers could possibly do with future episodes, other than just re-hash the same old stuff (what---yet more Sith, getting revenge again? Vader's ghost going back to the dark side again?) Anakin's voice is all wrong. How are we supposed to believe that he picked up an African accent after being burned? Yes! I thought exactly the same thing---his "Vader Voice" just didn't work. They clearly were attempting to find a halfway point between a whiny white kid and James Earl Jones. :) Obi Wan and Anakin are about a thousand times more handy with their lightsabers in their duel in ep 3 than 4 - understandible for the old and out of practice ep 4 Kenobi, but logic would say that ep 4 Vader would have ginsued old Ben in about half a second, judging from his mad skills in this movie. Again, I thought exactly the same thing. On the other hand, we can assume Vader's lightsaber skills were pretty rusty too after all those years...and let's face it, Obi-Wan kicked his ass in this latest episode! (Proving clearly that calm maturity wins every time.) Besides, Obi-Wan knew in ep4 that if Vader struck him down, he would become "more powerful than you could ever imagine." So what did he have to fear? (And surely Vader never actually believed he "won" over Kenobi when the latter basically vanished into thin air! Vader must not have slept well that night..."Where the hell did his corpse go?") R2D2 - somewhere between ep 3 and 4 he loses his ability to LEAP out of starfighters, spray oil slicks, catch objects thrown at him, and speed along at about 25mph. Huh?? LOL---I said this too! Clearly digital animation has put a little spring in R2's step! :) I doubt there was actually a little guy crammed in that can for this one... At the very end of the movie where we see Vader and the Emperor in the imperial cruiser, all of a sudden we're back to 1977 spaceship control panel technology?Clones/Stormtroopers - are we to believe that the troopers in ep 4 are a new batch of clones made from someone without the latin accent? Anakin's head - We never see him get those huge lacerations we see when it is revealed in episode 6. And in ep 6 he's got eyebrows and very little trace of the severe burning he suffers in this movie. I agree, but this stuff didn't bother me at all...and I had to admit I got a bit emotional when they brought the "Luke's Theme" music back at the end on Tatooine as Obi-Wan delivers the baby. That one point definitely tied it all together for me. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by SWriverstone I agree---I'm sure the Emperor is history. I really don't see what writers could possibly do with future episodes, other than just re-hash the same old stuff (what---yet more Sith, getting revenge again? Vader's ghost going back to the dark side again?) I've read episode 7, and it dealt with Han and Leia's Jedi children and the rise of a new bad guy. I suppose they could pull these off if the end of episode 9 delivers the final destruction of the empire, the restoration of the republic, and a new Jedi order. But I don't need that to happen. For now. Yes! I thought exactly the same thing---his "Vader Voice" just didn't work. They clearly were attempting to find a halfway point between a whiny white kid and James Earl Jones. :) That <i>was</i> James Earl Jones. On the other hand, we can assume Vader's lightsaber skills were pretty rusty too after all those years. Perhaps, but then again at the end of 3 he's just starting his training in the dark ways of the force, so I would think by 4 he'd be in his prime. Old Palpatine and Dooku were certainly no slouches with the saber. I agree, but this stuff didn't bother me at all... Me neither. and I had to admit I got a bit emotional when they brought the "Luke's Theme" music back at the end on Tatooine as Obi-Wan delivers the baby. That one point definitely tied it all together for me. Totally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Obi Wan and Anakin are about a thousand times more handy with their lightsabers in their duel in ep 3 than 4 - understandible for the old and out of practice ep 4 Kenobi, but logic would say that ep 4 Vader would have ginsued old Ben in about half a second, judging from his mad skills in this movie. Seeing as so far any kid I've taught for 6 months could have "ginsued" any of them in a half-second, save Ray Park, I'm curious to see what "mad skills" they might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Heh, might as well chime in now that people have seen it... I hated it. I thought it was awful. I think there was lots of stuff that it delivered on that people have been dying to see (Anakin turning into Darth Vader, Luke and Leia being born, Senator Whatever turning into the Emperor), so it definitely gets a lot of mileage out of that, but strip away all the nostalgic brownie points it still carries from the first 3 movies and it's a pretty weak movie. The acting is awful, except for Ewan McGregor. The writing is even worse. Progression of the story is tentative at best. Seriously, Anakin's main motivation for turning to the dark side is from a dream of what might possibly happen in to his wife (with whom he has no chemistry) in the future? They couldn't come up with anything more visceral or threatening than that? I get it - he's a Jedi and he's seeing the future, but that does not make for a very compelling emotional point. Have you seen the end of Se7en? Now that's the way to turn somebody to the dark side. Anakin turns to the dark side in about 1 minute. You'd think he'd warm up to being evil by killing the politicians first and then massacring little kids,not the other way around. The emperor was supposed to be all seductive, but instead he was just outright evil. Darth Sidious? Darth Plagus? They could have only made the Sith more obviously evil if they had named them Darth Evil and Darth Meanie. If Lucas had gotten me to care about any of the characters at all, the middle 15 hours of the movie might have been bearable, but as it was, it was just of confusing wipe-cuts to stilted, fake speeches. "I love you more! No, I love you more! You're blinded by love! No, you're blinded by love!" Geez. Even the fights were bad, in my opinion. The best fight scenes have some sort of emotional hook - somebody should be winning, or desperate to survive, or furious at the other, or reluctant to be fighting, or something. All these lightsaber fights were 15 minutes of evenly matched sword clashing until somebody randomly got a hand cut off. Not that I'm a huge fan of EP1, but give me Darth Maul over these guys any day of the week. At least in those fights you could see the difference between calm, meditative Liam Neeson and young, rearin-at-the-bit Kenobi. Heck, go back and watch the saber fight in Empire Strikes Back, which is technically inferior in every way, and it is so much more interesting to watch, as Darth Vader has Luke clearly overmatched, but has the layered story point of his trying to turn Luke to the dark side. Can you even remember anything about the saber fights in Episode 3, having just seen it yesterday? Do they jump from the tall burning floating thing to the short burning floating thing, or the short burning thing to the bridge, and is that before or after Anakin jumps onto Kenobi's floating thing? I can't even remember how they got to the burning lake in the first place - I don't think the fight progressed there in any sort of motivated way - if I remember right they just walked there because lava is more interesting than not lava. And... "Give up. I have the higher ground." W T F ? They've been leaping hundreds of feet and all of a sudden Obiwan has Anakin in checkmate because he's standing 2 feet higher than him? The space fight scene also didn't do it for me, either. Too many ships, with no focus on anything or any kind of continuity. Saturation was turned up to 11 so my retinal cones were bleeding. I couldn't tell what ships were important or what we were supposed to be looking at. Interestingly, all the things that bothered you, Jack, didn't bother me - I don't mind lack of continuity with other films/established canon/other material as long as it serves the story of the current movie. e.g. Leia says she has some memories of her mother in Return of the Jedi, but they changed it so Natalie Portman dies in childbirth. That's a great change - it works way better than having her die randomly 3 years later. I thought Jar Jar's appearance at the end was fine - all the things we all hate about him - his pidgin english, awful slapstick comic relief, and even his bouncy cartoony walk - were absent, and he fit in with all the other goofy alien designs in the SW movies, imo. Stuff I liked: I liked it when Yoda entered Sidious's room and wacked the 2 red guards against the wall. That was hilarious. I liked watching the technology start to become more like what you see in Episode 4 as the movie progressed - you get those all-white plastic walls like the ones you see at the very start of Ep 4, and you start to see early versions of star destroyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Heh, an interesting take, Ken. A very funny and well written review. I like your writing style. You have many valid points, but they just don't bother me I guess. And those things I mentioned that did bother me didn't cause me to dislike the movie in the slightest. I have a few theories about people who love to hate these movies. I think it makes them feel superior to the nine hundred million sheep/people who do love them. Also I think if you're in the movie biz, and you consider yourself an artist or a critic or some sort of expert, it must really annoy you that Lucas can break all these rules of what is good cinema and have people worship him like a god. Or maybe you're actually a superfan of the original trilogy, and nothing could measure up to the impossibly grand concept in your head of what this trilogy should have been. ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Or it's just entirely possible that they suck on their own merit (or lack thereof). I loved the first three, with the exception of the Ewoks. I think the three prequels are successful because of the OT, and not because they stand on their own. People go to see them because if you had any part of that first movie, you just kind of have to. And some fans like yourself love them, but I think most were disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by kjl Stuff I liked: I liked it when Yoda entered Sidious's room and wacked the 2 red guards against the wall. That was hilarious. LOLOLOL --- that was frickin' HILARIOUS!!! My friend and I laughed our butts off at that! :) I need to see it again...but something about the utterly nonchalant way Yoda dispatched those two thugs just cracked me up. The way he waxed those guys behind him on the Wookie planet was classic too. (He must've killed like 6 of 'em with one swipe of his lightsaber---LOL.) DON'T F*CK WITH YODA!!! :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill And some fans like yourself love them, but I think most were disappointed. I'd be VERY surprised if the majority of SW fans were disappointed by this movie. Very. At this point I'd just like to state for the record that I did not dress in character to go see the movie. Nor do I collect action figures or go to conventions, or read all the books/comics/fan-sites, or speak wookie. I just love all Star Wars movies. You could accuse me of being pre-determined to love the new movies, and I wouldn't dispute you, but hey, I'm glad to be enjoying them, not hating them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Michaud I'd be VERY surprised if the majority of SW fans were disappointed by this movie. Very. Sorry, I was speaking of the first two prequels. Reaction seems to be generally positive to the third one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Michaud I have a few theories about people who love to hate these movies. I think it makes them feel superior to the nine hundred million sheep/people who do love them. Also I think if you're in the movie biz, and you consider yourself an artist or a critic or some sort of expert, it must really annoy you that Lucas can break all these rules of what is good cinema and have people worship him like a god. Or maybe you're actually a superfan of the original trilogy, and nothing could measure up to the impossibly grand concept in your head of what this trilogy should have been. ??? I was hoping to like Ep III. Honestly. The transformation from cute Anakin to mean Vader could have been awesome. I didn't really like the original trilogy that much, but Empire Strikes Back is genuinely a pretty good movie, I think, and certainly both Star Wars and Empire have a certain something that just reeks of "something special," but I'm definitely not a superfan. I am in the biz, but I only do effects, so stuff like story and character development, etc. - when I hate on that I'm hating as the general public. Well, OK, I'm hating as a film snob who watches too many movies, but definitely not as a professional. My only "professional" opinions about EPIII are that the FX space fight was poorly composed and lit (Lucas lacks subtlety, so the detail on everything is turned as high as it will go, so the scenes are so busy you can't actually follow anything), and that Jango Fett's head was poorly composited on his the clone trooper armor in every shot. I do think a lot of the people who liked the movie are giving it lots of breaks because 1) it's a summer action flick and 2) they want to like it because it's Star Wars. The acting, dialogue, and writing in Episode III is awful - I don't think many people, even the people who gave it good reviews, would disagree with that. What else is there to make a movie good or bad? Was it exciting? Honestly the fight scenes were not exciting to me - they were evenly matched and lacked any kind of emotional intensity. Does it charge you up emotionally? The main dramatic hook of the movie was supposed to be Anakin being seduced to the dark side, and again, I didn't buy it at all. There was no internal struggle, and no believable external forces motivating his changes. To bring up the example I used in the last post - when you watch Brad Pitt struggle with himself to determine if he will or won't kill the guy at the end of Se7en , there you will see real believable motivation, something that could turn a good man bad, and feel in your gut the fury and turmoil that must be raging inside him. When I watched that my heart was pounding and my stomach felt twisted and tight. Even in Empire, after Vader has dropped the bomb on Luke (I am your father), after having beaten him down physically, you can feel Luke's world crashing down on him, and Mark Hamill isn't even a particularly good actor. Compare Episode III - do you really feel Anakin's internal struggle? He doesn't even really seem to like Amidala thanks to terrible dialogue, but even putting that aside, Amidala isn't sick, she's not dying, and she doesn't look like she needs saving. We've never seen any indication of the Emperor's ability to heal people or save people; he just blows stuff up and turns into a zombie. Where is the fear or seduction? It's like if I was to make a movie where a guy needs to make money to save his dying grandmother, but along the way towards getting the money he needs he gets seduced by wealth, riches and power. Except in this movie the last time you saw his grandmother she was in perfect health, and instead of showing the expensive cars and loose women, you just have some other guy explaining it to him. It's sloppy and boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Michaud At this point I'd just like to state for the record that I did not dress in character to go see the movie. I dunno Jack---this photo was taken yesterday in a Portland area grocery store...not sure who else it could be! :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirror70 Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 That could be pretty much any man from Maine, and half of the women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zcarver Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Well whether the movie is good or not, it certainly was good for a single day of selling tickets. He is the news: "Star Wars: Episode III — Revenge of the Sith" grossed $50,013,859 from showings at 3,661 theaters and more than 9,000 screens around the country on Thursday, including special midnight shows, according to box-office tracker Exhibitor Relations. That beat the one-day record set in May 2004 by "Shrek 2," which sold $44.8 million on a single Saturday — its fourth day in theaters. The George Lucas film, which features the transformation of Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker into the evil Darth Vader, also beat the opening day record held by "Spider-Man 2," which grossed $40.4 million when it opened on a Wednesday last June. "Fifty million is a good opening weekend, let alone a single day," said Paul Dergarabedian, president of Exhibitor Relations. "This is the box office equivalent of a 100-year flood." :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tilledog Posted May 22, 2005 Report Share Posted May 22, 2005 KJL Of course you hated it. You hated it 3 years before it came out. You have to. It's just you. KJL hates Star Wars...period. I was just waiting for you to say so so I could chime in with this. Dunno who you are but you seem very predictable. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted May 22, 2005 Report Share Posted May 22, 2005 So, How many of you did what I did - ran home from Ep.3 and immediately threw the next 3 in the dvd player? I'm sure I'll be up till 1 am watching all of these... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Originally posted by tex1230 So, How many of you did what I did - ran home from Ep.3 and immediately threw the next 3 in the dvd player? I'm sure I'll be up till 1 am watching all of these... I certainly wanted to, but it was too late, and a weeknight. However I prefer the circa-1995 VHS version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Hehe, yeah - I am predictable - I always hate crappy movies ;) I don't hate Star Wars, but I do hate what Lucas did to the last 3 (and they all suffer from the same general flaws - acting, writing, story). I actually did go back after watching Ep3 and start watching episodes 4-6 :) I spread them out over 3 days, but it was nice to watch them with the added background of the prequels. It turns out I hadn't seen 6 in a really long time - I had awful memories of it due to ewoks, but on the repeated viewing, I now think Return of the Jedi is freakin awesome... if you fastforward through the ewok parts. If Anakin's fear and seduction to the dark side had been half as effective as the Emperor's attempt on Luke, I think I would have been able to forgive Episode 3 of some of its faults. Luke's conflicted emotions between fear of losing his friends, hatred of the Emperor, and desire to save his father really come across, and the fact that he succumbs and regains control several times as the Emperor taunts him and Vader fights him makes the whole scene really work, in my opinion... I prefer the VHS version, too - I forget what's changed, but in particular, the Han Solo shooting second in the cantina in SW and the big show-stopping music number in Return of the Jedi are both mistakes, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 It ended up being even worse... as I was switching discs, my tv popped over to fox, which was showing Attack of The Clones...so I ended up watching 5 of the 6 movies yesterday (out of order and one with WAY too many commercials) ... I think my brain has melted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 Had to take my kid to see it on the weekend. Mostly, I was bored. The dialog was beyond awful, there was maybe 30 minutes of plot stretched out over 2.5 hours of movie. Like the first two, it seemed like an excuse for Lucas to trot out his effects and say, "wasn't that whiz-bang?" Very few spots where I was entertained. Better than the first two, but that ain't saying much. Also, I had a beef with the level of gore and violence. Had the series started that way, I'd have been fine with it. But switching from PG verging on G to having visuals of a burning man and including the (offscreen) slaughter of children... wasn't entirely pleased with that for my 10 year old, and had he been a couple of years younger I would have deemed it entirely inappropriate. Pretty had to say no to a kid who's seen the preceeding 5 films though, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin A. Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 Neil, this one was PG-13. ________ Land rover llama specifications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 nice signature... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 Originally posted by Justin A. Neil, this one was PG-13. I know. My point was, it shouldn't have been. I'd have no problems taking a 7 or 8 year old to see the original movie. I wasn't entirely sure I was doing the right thing with my 10 year old there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin A. Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 I know. My point was, it shouldn't have been. I'd have no problems taking a 7 or 8 year old to see the original movie. I wasn't entirely sure I was doing the right thing with my 10 year old there. Would you have had a problem taking your son to see Macbeth? (I am in no way saying that lucas is like Shakespear, just that I found similarities) In macbeth, Macbeth has MacDuff's family brutally killed, and they actually show MacDuff's son be killed after the murders play with him a bit. The murders were used to show the main character's transformation for good to evil, and the children being killed off-screen in this new movie seem to meant to do the exact same thing. ________ Rafaga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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