Tanglefoot Posted October 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 1 hour ago, TLN said: I have similar F2, but Worldcup edition. That's metal board, and would be fair to compare to Kessler. I agree that top clear layer affects the performance. But IMHO, metal adds so much to the board, so you should only compare metal-to-metal boards. Carbon vs glass is fine to me. Hello again TLN, I agree that it is an unfair comparison, but the whole reason for this quest is to find measurable differences between metal boards and composite boards. I think I will struggle to get my hands on a composite board that has been engineered to behave like a metal board though. Had to start somewhere, hence the F2 / Kessler comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLN Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Tanglefoot said: Hello again TLN, I agree that it is an unfair comparison, but the whole reason for this quest is to find measurable differences between metal boards and composite boards. I think I will struggle to get my hands on a composite board that has been engineered to behave like a metal board though. Had to start somewhere, hence the F2 / Kessler comparison. I see what you're saying. It's interesting comparsion indeed. Wonder if we'll get similar results with other boards: i.e. compare metal race board with Glass board. Say SG Full Carve vs Kessler 180 for example. Different brand and construction. I wasn't following the whole thread about titanal and everything, but I guess the supply of 0.3mm is limited, while 0.4mm is widely available. 0.4 is stiffer then 0.3 obviously. Tell me please, should I worry, if my weight is 200lbs+? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 From what I recall with discussions with Bruce of Coiler, a board made with 0.4mm metal ends up being torsionally stiffer, which does not suit finesse riders as much. I assume that's with thinning the core to get the same bending stiffness. He said I'd probably like a 0.4mm board. So basically, I think Bruce called me a meat-head. LOL! I also recall Sean from Donek mentioning that he tried to reproduce the 'feel' of a metal board with triax fiberglass and rubber, but something wasn't quite the same in the performance. He later said that the World Cup racers did not like a lighter version of the Rev boards; the mass was an important factor to them. That made me think about a test with weights at various places along the board to see if location A did 'this' while location B did 'that'. Maybe Sean will post in here, though I suspect his testing has come at great expense to his business so he wouldn't want to give away the farm... I suspect he's reading this thread and either getting a laugh or getting ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanglefoot Posted October 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 If we can provide some light entertainment for Sean - or Bruce - for a few moments, then it has all been worthwhile. Replacing the Titanal with triax fiberglass, while making no other changes to the design, will lead to a significantly heavier board - for the same flexural and torsional stiffness. I think carbon is necessary to replicate the metal behaviour, as well as some analysis, in order to avoid too many prototypes and iterations. Mass is beginning to stand out as a key parameter in these discussions. I am tempted to stick some weights to my old glass Silberpfeil this winter, or to simply bond a sheet of soft, heavy rubber to the top sheet. All in the name of science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLN Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Well, I if I'm heavier rider, and I don't mind it being torsionally stiff - I'm good then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 I think we're all going to find out pretty soon! I don't understand the variables enough to fully grasp what Bruce said in that conversation. Previous discussions highlighted that some riders like to let the G-force build and bend the board, while some like to pre-bend it into the turn with foot pressure before any G-forces build. I'm in the latter camp, though I'm not as good at doing that on heel-side turns as toe-sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 If we're talking general construction differences; I find it interesting that, in general, Coiler boards have a thinner tip and tail than Donek boards. The Coiler core looks like it might be 1/2 as thick as the Donek near the ends of the effective edge. Clearly a different philosophy between the two companies. Of course, I don't have boards for identical purposes from each maker: i.e. A Donek Rev and a Coiler NSR. But every Coiler I've seen is thinner at the ends than every Donek I've seen. And yet they all work well... Bruce mentioned that there's a factor in where the stiffness is in his cores along the length that he can tailor based on the desired effect (that where the different flex patterns for the Nirvana came in: Balance, Energy, and Vcam), but some overall stiffness is fixed for a given rider's weight. I took out a Nirvana Energy demo when Bruce was away from the tent and didn't really like it. When I got back and mentioned that, he said "Of course not, you drive on the nose. You need to get on a Balance or a Vcam. The Energy has a softer nose and a stiffer tail." Oh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) Watch used Coiler boards go up in value if there is no more 0.3 to be had. Im not so sure Bruce is willing to go through all the redesign necessary to make it work with 0.4. Now this could end up being a new generation of metals that have different feel than what we have now and perhaps "better" in the long run. Problem is waiting or knowing when they actually have the process feel and durability dialed in. I can see a couple years of boards that dont meet our current expectations and people paying for boards that just dont work for them. Since 2009 There has not been a Coiler metal I have tried that I couldn't get dialed into within a few hours, Even that Og Plankinschtein that was built for riders 50lb heavier than me I was able to master after a couple runs. So the real question is how quickly can manufacturers adapt the 0.4 design to get the current ridability and durability we enjoy with todays designs Edited November 2, 2016 by Bobby Buggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLN Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 I see that it's harder to adapt it for lighter riders, but for 200+ riders this shouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 I'm missing the nuances of what Bruce said, but I walked away with the impression that gentler/smoother/flowing riders wouldn't like the change in torsional rigidity with the 0.4mm material, and power/spastic riders would like it. There was also something about how the transition from carving to skidding that was less 'friendly' with the 0.4mm material. Bruce was definitely experimenting with the 0.4mm material last year. I assume anyone that's planning to sell metal alpine boards into next year was too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Its the allowance for twist that is the factor here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) error Edited November 4, 2016 by pokkis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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