A little advice on technique please?

[icebiker]

Thanks again Mike and Beckmann

 

It is a little harder on a steeper trail/longer radius board as you need the speed to keep from falling over.

 

Yep, since I ride the ice coast with its narrow trails, I ordered my Donek with a 9-11 VSCR.  I think part of what I have to do more of (as some have said) is get more angulation earlier in my turns.  In fact, I've found when I've done that accidentally the board turns so quickly that I've stuffed myself a couple of times. I need to finesse it a bit more.  

 

That your toeside isn't as quick is likely a result of your newfound heelside awesomeness, and a reluctance to let go of that sensation in favor of the next turn. 

 

Indeed, I think I need to execute the toeside quicker than I do now.  

 

I think greens and blues are fun, but I think they can also hurt your technique if you stick to them too much.

 

Nick, thanks for that...this is true. I'm very comfortable on most any blue...provided it has width.  I have less reticence about the pitch as I do about having sufficient run-out. I haven't perfected quick transitions from heel to to and back, hence the "relaxed" pace I'm pulling in the vid.  So if the trail is too narrow I get nervous about being able to pull the board around quickly. All the more of a challenge if it's a black (which tend to be even narrower).  But if I work on quicker and more dramatic angulation, that should help.  Perhaps you can be my "black diamond coercer" if we can connect later this season in PA ;-).  

Edited February 12, 2015 by icebiker

[Erik J]

Great advice in this thread. Feels good to start putting things together and get results on the snow. Have fun!

 

 

If you are sticking linked C carves down a real double black I will eat my hat.

 

You want a side of fries with that hat? Linked C carves would be my preferred method of speed control on a double black. Assuming it's groomed. If not, and it's bumped out, then jump turns are in. I like smaller sidecuts on my boards.  

[That Guy...]

If you are sticking linked C carves down a real double black I will eat my hat.

 

With this, I concur.  Blacks and double blacks in the NJ/ PA area are like greens and blues at most out here in the west.  However, what you lack in terrain you make up for with technique because of the ice.

[Rob Stevens]

OP guy.

 

 Your toes probably come around more slowly because we all tend to be back foot biased on the toes. With little pressure on the front half of the board, the sidecut isn't as engaged as it could be. It's opposite for heels, where it's much more natural to be front biased. The problem there can be a nice strt, with a wash out at the end.

 Knowing this, you can move the board under you as you go through turns. Note I'm thinking move the board under you... Not moving your center of mass. Pull the board under you so you're over the front foot to start, progress through a mid stance at the apex, finishing with a feeling of being over the back foot.

[BlueB]

With this, I concur.  Blacks and double blacks in the NJ/ PA area are like greens and blues at most out here in the west.  However, what you lack in terrain you make up for with technique because of the ice.

Don't know about how the rating compares East/West, but I'm yet to see a groomed double black in the West... Even lots of the blacks require the winch cat. 

[Keyser Soze]

If you can also look up a guy called Marc Cirigliano on youtube, he has a series that breaks down the modern way to ride the board in a racing style which is (IMHO) the most effective all round technique for riding in a variety of conditions, and opens the path to EC and other styles later on.  He has a series starting with Midweighting 1 all the way to 16.  Also look up a guy called Masaki Shiba on youtube, his riding is very stable and powerful and also you can look up a thing called installer 15 which has the Japanese style of riding (strongly derived from basic modern technique used in racing) when they free ride.

 

Considering all the hours I've spent scouring the forum here on BOL, as well as videos all over the internet, I'm surprised I've never come across Marc's stuff. Excellent resource; thanks for posting. It's given me a ton to think about and work on when I head out riding next.

[lordmetroland]

If you are sticking linked C carves down a real double black I will eat my hat.

Thanks for clarifying. I was struggling to reconcile this. Though I'd love to see video of someone ripping carves down the backside of Mary Jane (ehm, just realized how bad that looked while typing it), it's a bit hard to imagine!

[Beckmann AG]

Don't know about how the rating compares East/West, but I'm yet to see a groomed double black in the West... Even lots of the blacks require the winch cat.

Ratings have always been relative to the area itself, more so than one region to the other.

 

We've a few winch-groomed doubles here, on which it is possible to link clean turns...

 

When the snow is right, and you're on your game.  Otherwise you're risking severe anatomical damage.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[Neil Gendzwill]

Great advice in this thread. Feels good to start putting things together and get results on the snow. Have fun!

You want a side of fries with that hat? Linked C carves would be my preferred method of speed control on a double black. Assuming it's groomed. If not, and it's bumped out, then jump turns are in. I like smaller sidecuts on my boards.

If grooming is possible, it's not double black. If they groom it and call it double black, it's marketing.

[Beckmann AG]

If grooming is possible, it's not double black. If they groom it and call it double black, it's marketing.

Not so sure that's the industry standard?

 

 Trail ratings account for 'technical difficulty'; as in narrow/ steep/ bumped or some combination thereof.

 

And also this other thing called 'exposure'.

 

That's the possibility of major trauma or death if/when you botch a turn.

 

A steep and groomed machine-made surface is inherently more dangerous than steep au naturel, and the double-black designation serves as much as a warning as it does an enticement.

[lordmetroland]

A steep and groomed machine-made surface is inherently more dangerous than steep au naturel, 

At the risk of thread jacking, if you hang a piñata like this out there, you have to expect at least one sucker will take a swing at it. That sucker is me. I have to admit I don't follow the logic here. Help!

[That Guy...]

If grooming is possible, it's not double black. If they groom it and call it double black, it's marketing.

 

Yes and no.  As I'm sure you're well aware of, the trail rating system is relative to each individual mountain.  Let's take one mountain with four runs of equal length, all groomed, all straight, all the same width.  However, each one is progressively steeper than the next.  They would be marked as green, blue, black and double black as they gain slope.  But if a mountain two states over has the exact same layout as the other mountain (width, length, groomed), but their most shallow run steeper than the aforementioned mountain's double black, that will not make it a triple black; it will make it a green.  

 

A real example of this would be to take a look at the double black at Camelback Mountain in PA (800' vertical and groomed on a 166 acre mountain) and compare it to a double black at Powder Mountain in UT (about 3500' vertical with cliffs and avvie holds on deep days on an 8700 acre mountain).  I agree that CBM's double black isn't a "real" double black when compared to what's out west, but it is a legitimate rating when taken in the context of every other rated trail out there.

[That Guy...]

At the risk of thread jacking, if you hang a piñata like this out there, you have to expect at least one sucker will take a swing at it. That sucker is me. I have to admit I don't follow the logic here. Help!

 

Quite often I'm asked what a good first motorcycle would be.  Those are the people who can be taught, and who are most likely to become very skilled riders.  Once in a while, a new rider will come out to the track with a liter bike and insist they're skilled enough to handle it just fine despite their lack of experience and against the advice of wiser riders.  Those are the people that need to learn and will most likely be passed on the outside by a 14 year old on a 250, and who will go home after throwing what's left of their bike in the dumpster.  You can either be taught, or you will need to learn on your own; the path you decide to take is entirely up to you.  

[Neil Gendzwill]

That Guy, I understand that trail ratings are relative and subjective and that actual difficulty varies with conditions. But it isn't as simple as that otherwise the ratio of green to blue to black would be the same at each hill.

However I will revise my statement and say that if you can link C carves down a double black at any major Western resort with any sort of reputation for expert terrain, I will eat my hat. The ones I have been on have average pitches 40 degrees and up, are often narrow, never groomed, usually dotted with hazards, often with ugly exposure meaning serious consequences in case of a fall. In my book if there is no pucker factor it ain't double black.

[Beckmann AG]

At the risk of thread jacking, if you hang a piñata like this out there, you have to expect at least one sucker will take a swing at it. That sucker is me. I have to admit I don't follow the logic here. Help!

As with the piñata, the success of the endeavour is affected by one's perception.

 

As Neil points out, if it can be groomed, it can't possibly be a double-black diamond.  Which suggests to the average resort guest that the degree of difficulty/associated hazards are in line with any other groomed slope.

 

It's a smooth, more or less uniform surface. How tough could it be?

 

At least in these parts, the really steep groomed stuff is an industrial surface.  It gets harder and denser the more it is groomed and skied, to the point that it can become like ceramic armor plate.

 

The problem is self-arrest in the event of a fall and slide.

 

Most recreational skiers don't practice self-arrest, and most don't realize that if they slide long enough, they will most likely wind up with their feet uphill, with their head leading the way.

And most never consider the possibility.  After all, if it's been groomed, it's been sanitized by the resort, and must be perfectly safe. 

 

On the other hand, if it hasn't been groomed, it is fair to assume that there are all sorts of difficulties associated with that particular slope, extending beyond the obvious shark's-teeth bumps, trees, rocks, etc, to obstacles not visible other than in the imagination.

This is often enough to keep people out of where they don't belong.

If they do venture forth against better judgement, the irregular contour and more friable surface serves to slow and perhaps arrest a slide.

 

Ergo, that which seems safe isn't.  And that which seems unsafe, is comparably safer.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[Rob Stevens]

If a pinata (don't know how to type an ene, or put the ene in ene) is in an uncontrollable slide down an eastern doubleblack, it will probably die when it hits a snowgun at the bottom.

If a pinata from New Hampshire, on holidays in Whistler, gets into an uncontrollable slice down a western doubleblack, candy-guts will be spread over a wider area.

If a pinata rides his GSX-R at Washougal, he'll share an experience with the pinata dropping Bre X on his alpine race deck by the middle of their respective second turns.

[lordmetroland]

It's a smooth, more or less uniform surface. How tough could it be?

 

At least in these parts, the really steep groomed stuff is an industrial surface.  It gets harder and denser the more it is groomed and skied, to the point that it can become like ceramic armor plate.

 

I'll buy that as an explanation. My experience is mostly limited to CO, primarily Winter Park, Loveland, A Basin. I'm not sure I've ever even seen a groomed black diamond, much less a double-black so the "groomed=safe" equation pretty much holds. The so-steep-you-won't-stop-falling-until-the-slope-flattens runs are unfamiliar with the Snowcat. A good whack at the piñata is always satisfying even if it doesn't spew candy!

 

By the way, Icebiker, even if this thread has taken a decidedly strange tangent, thanks for starting it. There's been lots of useful information along the way.

Edited February 15, 2015 by lordmetroland

[dingbat]

A couple things that may be relevant to the conversation:

 

Excepting glare ice, and I mean ice, not hard snow, the lighter, dryer, and deeper the snow is, the harder it is for a cat to climb a grade. So a grade that may be unsafe to groom in the western pow and spring corn may be no issue in eastern chalk or even "ice" if the grousers are spiked up.

 

There have been lawsuits against ski areas based on the notion that grooming a trail makes it less safe for the reasons pointed out by Mr. Beckmann.  

[icebiker]

4 days at Breck so far, and had 2.5 days of packed powder and grooms to further practice your tips.  Finding my self much more confident, turning quicker, and more comfortable on narrower/steeper pitches.  As I dropped in on one particular run (steep blue...equivalent to some of the blacks back home), a voice in my head (most likely Nck's or a chorus of several of you) told me "commit!, commit!" and lo and behold my turns came around quick and with great edge hold.  Have to admit it was a bit daunting, and my legs weren't strong enough to keep it up forever.  We've also had a bunch of snow the past 24 hours. Not much carving today...more like surfing.   Dropped into lower Serenity bowl today and fond myself knee deep all the way down....amazing.  Heading to Vail tomorrow for one last day before heading back. 

 

@ Beckmann:

As with the piñata, the success of the endeavour is affected by one's angulation.

 

Fixed if for you ;-)

 

@ Rob Stevens:

 

Your toes probably come around more slowly because we all tend to be back foot biased on the toes. With little pressure on the front half of the board, the sidecut isn't as engaged as it could be. It's opposite for heels, where it's much more natural to be front biased. The problem there can be a nice strt, with a wash out at the end.

 Knowing this, you can move the board under you as you go through turns. Note I'm thinking move the board under you... Not moving your center of mass. Pull the board under you so you're over the front foot to start, progress through a mid stance at the apex, finishing with a feeling of being over the back foot.

 

This makes sense.  i found pressuring the rear foot more on toe turns helps with the edge hold through the turn, but makes for longer radius turns unless I weight the front first (which is why in my original post I felt I needed to work more on leaning forward at turn initiation).  Will keep at it.

[SunSurfer]

SES 2013 Intermediate & Steeps Clinic videos have been reuploaded to YouTube.