Anyone running a plate for slalom?

[scrutton]

Trying to use a plate for slalom (not Giant slalom). Been trying to use a plate (Boiler plate) with an SG 163, and am having some issues that I think are balance related. Anyone having any success with this - on all of the podium pics I've seen, none have a plate on their boards.

My next plan is to

- slack out the binding angle some.

- set up another board without a plate and A-B them.

- buy a set of SW's (Running TD2 SI's at the moment).

[kieran]

is SL plate application not usually vist-style?

[scrutton]

Not sure Kieran? If so why - reduced height perhaps? I don't think I've seen those even.

[Beckmann AG]

Care to elaborate on/describe the issues?

[scrutton]

I want to say that loss of board feel might be an issue. It's hard to quantify things, when I've had about 1 minute 30 seconds total on the race course so far this year.

Symptoms are :-

- Falling.

- Getting and being late for the gates.

- Excessive use of arms.

TD2 SI bindings are set up at 40 degrees front and rear (according to the dial indicator). 3mm degree on front, 6 degree on rear.

Boiler plate 4mm.

SG 163cm

It's probably something that practice could fix.

[scrutton]

Tonight I'm changing the TD2 SI's to TD3-plate-model SI's. I think that that should lower the stack height some.

[Beckmann AG]

1minute30 isn't much of a sample, but:

If you don't typically have trouble with slalom, and the binding configuration is otherwise identical, then a few things come to mind.

Presumably the plate will allow the board to bend differently than without. It could be that you are now on a more 'reactive' platform, and need to tone down your inputs, as well as figure out how to make use of available rebound. This would be a matter of accommodation, and more riding should resolve.

On the other hand, the additional hand waving could suggest that you are on an 'unstable' platform, whereby the link between you and the board is 'buffered' by the plate, such that by the time you realize the need to adjust a given input (or add another) the moment has passed and falling is imminent.

Back in the early days of the Derbyflex/Deflex plates (for skis), their use in the speed events was de rigeur, but nobody used them for slalom as their effect on the feedback loop outweighed the stack advantage. Later on, plates made of more transmissive materials came into popular use and to good effect.

If, as Kieran suggests, nobody is using the isocline for slalom, there may be a very good reason behind that trend.

40 deg. seems rather flat for a discipline requiring dexterity more so than power.

[scrutton]

Thanks for the comments Beckman AG.

A couple of notes - I went with the shallowest angle I could get away with, and with the increased height of the stack using the plate that was about 40 degrees. I could go to a steeper angle, but that would increase any balance problems. Chris Klug once advised me to go as shallow as possible as the board width allows to increase balance.

Kieran is right, I just noticed that the board I have the Boiler Plate on, has the tell-tale signs (topsheet markings) of having

had a VIST plate installed on it.

I'm getting rattle (like half of a mm of play) on both axles of the Bolier plate (side to side). Wonder if that's bearing wear? (the side bolts are snug).

[lowrider]

I believe to benefit the most from a plate you have to commit completely to it. It's difficult to do if you aren't 100% sure of everything else. If riding in good conditions don't use the plate but if riding in unstable conditions and it is difficult to read your inputs commit to what the plate can do to benefit with the control of the board. You need to train with the plate in very bad conditions to develop the trust you will require to benefit from it's advantages. Adding sidewinders may introduce too many more variables to respond to. Perhaps a sidewinder on the rear only would be a better starting point? Very small washers Shims) may help to take up some of the play in the hardware. I like the "A" "B" comparison you mention and if you were able to video the two setups as you ride you will be extremely surprised with the visual difference.

[scrutton]

Thanks Lowrider. You and Beckman make some good points. In retrospect, as I'm running 40 degrees, I don't think that I need to slacken the angle anymore.

I will try the reduced height plate-orientated TD3's in two weeks and see if that helps. If If I'm still failing, I will set up another board without plates and A-B them in March. I'm doing OK in GS on my longer board (same plate / binding setup), it just might be that Slalom is more difficult. Going back to a point Beckman made, I am not particularly good at slalom, I'm always fighting one thing or another, but adding the plate seems to have caused even more problems than I normally have.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

You definitely want to look at the placement of your front foot in respect to the front axle.

Depending on the spread of attachment points , it may be actually stiffening the snowboard.

Just for laughs, try putting the slider in the rear.

The play you are experiencing is likely between the small pieces attached to the plate and the larger perch mounted on the board. You may have a little bit of adjustment in the attachment point to the plate. Worst case , you could add a small spring washer between the two cnc'd fittings. I can feel it on mine but it is very small.

Bryan

Edited February 14, 2014 by www.oldsnowboards.com

[scrutton]

Center of the front foot is behind the axle, a little forward of the center point default stance. Rear foot is just forward of the axle and just around center point of the default stance.

Thanks for the tips on binding play. I don't notice it when I am riding on the board, but I can hear it when I am adjusting bindings, or when just have one foot connected etc.

[Beckmann AG]

I am not particularly good at slalom, I'm always fighting one thing or another, but adding the plate seems to have caused even more problems than I normally have.

Trust your intuition on this one. If you aren't particularly adept at slalom, to the point that you can reel off clean runs consistently, you probably shouldn't add more complexity by way of a plate and all the variables that go along with it.

I could go to a steeper angle, but that would increase any balance problems.

To the contrary. The short axis of the board is the tippy axis, and the short axis of the foot is the one most finely tuned to the needs of keeping you upright. The key is to allow your intuitive means of balancing to come into play.

Similarly, you need a suspension system by way of leg flexion/extension that does not compromise edge contact angle any more than necessary. Steeper binding angle puts the plane of articulation closer to the glide path, and closer to parallel with the axis of board tilt.

Chris Klug once advised me to go as shallow as possible as the board width allows to increase balance.

With all due respect to CK, you're basing a significant part of your gear configuration on a non-sequitur.

Perhaps a sidewinder on the rear only would be a better starting point?

Other than fiddling with stance angle and a lot of deliberate practice, this might pay off, at least in the short term, depending on binding angle.

Stiff bumper medial, soft bumper lateral. Toe flip, not step-in.

[Strider]

Hi Scrutton,

I have just started playing with a Boiler Plate over the last 3 weeks (thanks Bryan) and have noticed a few things that sound similar to what you may be experiencing, and I believe that there are 2 suggestions you've already heard here that will really help. As a background I've been coaching since early 2000's. I try to get on the new equipment as quickly as I can but sometimes cost prevents that as coaching here in the Midwest is almost all on a volunteer basis.

Anyway, I and probably most people have noticed right away in freeriding with a plate the amount of isolation from the variable conditions that it provides. This is obviously really great, especially in the race course where there are ruts and ice. I think Beckmann nailed it with this comment

the link between you and the board is 'buffered' by the plate, such that by the time you realize the need to adjust a given input (or add another) the moment has passed and falling is imminent.

The isolation can cause a delay in the reaction to what is happening underneath you. I found that my first few days in the course I was late all the time even though I was running on courses that I set for practices and purposely made them rhythmic so it would be easy. It took awhile to realize that I was waiting for certain inputs during the turn that weren't there anymore and was initiating transitions late, and not committing to them as hard as I would without the plate. Despite being late, my timed runs were all still faster with the plate due to being able to push it through all the crap that sits outside that late line and the board/plate combo responding like crazy. This actually helped build the confidence in the plate and being able to really push it even harder than when mounted directly on the board. Once that was figured out it was just a matter of adjusting my thinking on the timing of my turn initiations and relearning the inputs to be paying attention to. Slalom is such a faster paced discipline that it may take longer to learn these things, particularly if it was already a tough discipline for you.

I don't know if any of this will help you, especially since I didn't give specific details on how to fix on the problem, but it is what I have observed in my own riding, and now that I understand the plate better I have also noticed the same things in the kids I'm coaching who have put on plates in the last 2 years. It would probably help you to have someone watch or videotape some runs so you can watch and compare plated runs to ones without the plate and see if you can link what you see happening to what you feel/experience on each run and you will be better able to isolate what is causing the problems.

[scrutton]

$strider - thanks for the input. You guys might be on the money. Overall (slalom and GS) my times are slower this year (no medals in NASTAR at all this year, and my handicap in the racing league is rising), but I've only done two weekends of racing, so I think I might still be ramping up this year. The plate for GS, feels really good, and dominates any ruts. In slalom, ruts can be a huge factor, which is why I want to continue with a plate of some kind. I'm also not really sold on the VIST (looks complex, lots of parts etc, and a bit flimsy) - I have more confidence in the Boiler plate.

I learnt something interesting early season this year, in that I tend to 'jerk' my turns, especially the initiation of them. Apparently I stay on one edge (locked into it), and then make sudden sharp movement to try to initiate the turn. This isn't very efficient, as the board does not turn well when driven in this manner, and while I might be on the new edge, I am sliding on the new edge, and (when icy) may have to wait a short while until I've slowed down before the edge grabs. This was brought to my attention a month ago.

While I was out in Montana (on softboots) a couple of weeks ago, I injured my achilles tendon, forcing me to go back to basics and re-learn how to snowboard without making jerky turns (which hurt). I found that if I used good form, and slower but earlier movements to roll on/off power in the turn, I could get effective turns without hurting myself. I think that this is going to help everything. Funny how getting injured may have been the necessary catalyst to get my snowboarding to the next level in learning progression.

[drschwartz]

I coach a high school race team and have been trying different set ups. I really like the Vist for my slalom board. It dampens the chatter, and helps absorb shock, though I'm not sure whether this is due to actually helping the board flex differently, or just because there is so much mass that is doesn't allow as much transmission of vibration - I suspect the latter. I ride the board fixed in the rear.

I have ridden both the Apex, version 2, and the Bomber Boilerplate on my large carving board. The boilerplate is a little lighter, and the friction on the gliding part of the plate seems to be less than the Apex. Rode the Apex all last season, will have a better idea of the comparison after some more time on my board this season (live in California, need I say more?) Any body else have thoughts on how these two plates compare in terms of performance? Any one use a boilerplate or Apex for slalom racing? I haven't tried this yet.

[scrutton]

Any one use a boilerplate .... for slalom racing?

Yes, that is my setup (see start of thread).

[lowrider]

Scrutton Have you run you slalom gates on a board longer or shorter than your 163 ? How did you determine the 163 was best for you ? With so many variables boots bindings, plates and boards, it has always made me question the size of board and SCR one chooses more so now as boards seem to be getting shorter. If you are fighting the nose of your board have you determined it you are off balance because you can't get it to turn when you want or because you are riding it like your longer board ? Setting up gates and trying multiple board lengths and SCR would be the only way to dial in a perfect ride. I'm sure few people would be willing to commit to spending a day screwing bindings on boards all day long to dial in a prefect ride. It would appear obvious that to follow the advice given here on a regular basis "Try before you buy" one needs to commit the time and energy to this task. If you are serious about racing and want to determine for yourself why certain things work trying as many options as possible may be necessary or listen to your coach like he she is a god and follow their every word. I dare say when it comes to plates even your coach may not be up on the latest developments. Watching the Olympics this week it is obvious to me that the riders weren't riding the best board for every gate but the best board for most gates, perhaps that's the best one can hope for but riding the best board for the gates that result in the best time is different than riding a board that gives the most control an all gates. It will be interesting to see the equipment ridden in the Slalom tonite and how different it will be compared to the GS ( Plates specifically). Watching the arms flailing may not be the best indicator but I'm pretty sure I saw some arms paddling the air to get the tail of their boards around on some of the gates. (We all do it ) I'm glad you are willing to experiment keep us posted.

Edited February 21, 2014 by lowrider

[scrutton]

Yes. I have used a 175 before and the 163 is much easier to use. I do Ok on a 163 w no plate but sometimes the ruts kill me. Hence that's why I am trying a plate. The big problem is that I get 2 runs on the slalom course per weekend with no other access to it so it's tough to get data points.

[lowrider]

The ruts kill most but usually only wound larger riders. Massive riders can blast through most ruts. We used to plant bean bags on the hill for an illegal course after training but the coach tended to ride over them which would slice them open. Small coloured plastic bags of kitty litter sprinkled down a hill from your backpack would do the trick.Sometimes it's better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.

[scrutton]

Great idea. Love the idea of a stealth course.

[scrutton]

Results from this weekends racing/testing

- did 2 runs on the slalom course with a sg 163 no plate and posted great results for me(2nd in flight of similar handicap racers). No plate felt much better than prior races.

- did 2 nastar runs with sg 163 with Boiler Plate. Got 2 bronze medal runs. My first two this season.

- did 2 gs runs using 163 sg with plate. Posted 2nd place 8 my flight again. Stoked.

- then did 2 nastar runs (same course as earlier gs), using donek rev 175 with boiler plate. Secured a silver on first run and a bronze on second. Times were faster than on the sg 163.

Conclusions appear to be for me:

-SG 163 no plate works great for slalom

- donek rev 175 with boiler plate works great for gs.

[scrutton]

Results from this weekends racing/testing

- did 2 runs on the slalom course with a sg 163 no plate and posted great results for me(2nd in flight of similar handicap racers). No plate felt much better than prior races.

- did 2 nastar runs with sg 163 with Boiler Plate. Got 2 bronze medal runs. My first two this season.

- did 2 gs runs using 163 sg with plate. Posted 2nd place 8 my flight again. Stoked.

- then did 2 nastar runs (same course as earlier gs), using donek rev 175 with boiler plate. Secured a silver on first run and a bronze on second. Times were faster than on the sg 163.

Conclusions appear to be for me:

-SG 163 no plate works great for slalom

- donek rev 175 with boiler plate works great for gs.

[Vandalrob08]

After glancing through the thread I though I would give my input. Racers competing over the last 10 years have seen a dramatic increase in the amount of technology offered. Boards incoroporating metal with longer effective edge length have been the cornerstone. Along with these metal boards plates have appeared with several options available today.

The Vist plate system is arguably the benchmark in slalom racing today. Vist differs from a full suspension plate in that it is locked in place on the rear inserts of a board. The front of the plate however is able to slide freely along the front inserts of the board. Many competitive racers prefer the Vist for slalom because it offers increased torsional stiffness, allows the board to flex more freely under pressure from the rider, dampens the feeling of ruts under foot all while allowing the rider to maintain a certain amount of feel as to what the board is doing under foot in course. This is important in slalom because since the turns are tighter than GS, placement and precision in a rut filled race course are paramount. Another perk of any plate including the Vist is the added elevation of the boot and binding, creating a stance that will not be susceptible to boot out under most conditions and board angle in relationship to contact with the snow.

Full Isolation plates such as the Apex plate, SG Plate have moving parts on the front and back axles. They also add height to the boot/binding interface that will help decrease the susceptibility of a rider to booting out. What these plate systems do so well is isolate the rider from the board. The rider is providing input to a plate, the plate provides the input to the board. These plate systems will dramatically decrease the amount of vibration a rider feels due to a rut filled race course, or in any snow condition for that matter. Along with this comes what many agree to be a slower reaction time in comparison to a Vist plate or other similar semi-isolating plate systems.

Feel is another topic for discussion. A benefit to less feel is less physical vibration effecting a rider while in the race course. Less vibration could mean that a rider is less susceptible to falling in and out of position during a race. Body position is so crucial to not only how a board makes a turn but also wether or not a rider falls from a mistake or not. Although all this seems to add up to a benefit in the race course, The opposite argument can also be made that having less feel of what your board is doing underfoot may hinder your ability to adjust for a mistake in the middle of a race run.

All in all, Plate systems definitely make a positive difference on and off a race course. Understanding how a board reacts with and without a plate will greatly increase your effectiveness of using one.