How bad is this idea?

Comapedrosa · November 6, 2013

Hi, I'm thinking of getting miself a new setup:

Kessler Alpine 168 + TD3 Sidewinder. I already have banged out UPZ RC-10 boots (that I wouldn't give away over by dead body). A priori no plates.

Does this fit together? In theory, i'm going to wait until ECES at the end of Feb to try this out, but i'm not sure if i'll be able to wait! I have a few questions:

- The Kessler has UPM inserts, do the TD3 SW fit that?

- Do the UPZs fit well into the TD3s? (have always had some play in the front in my F2 Race Ti)

- Should i get a plate (thinking that i prefer the more direct contact/feel; and usually have plenty of speed - but would be VERY interested in your thoughts!)

A bit of background about me:

Always lived in or close to the mountains. Stopped skiing in 1991 and been carving ever since (Pyrenees, Alps, Argentina, now North East). Current setup: SWOARD 175 (gen 3) + F2 Race ti + UPZ RC-10... but i'm a bit over the Swoard right now... (looking for something more aggressive, shorter, quicker, lighter). FWIW 6 ft, 185lb, out of shape

Would really appreciate any experience you could share!

CP

Edited November 6, 2013 by Comapedrosa

breeseomatic · November 6, 2013

If that Kessler only has UPM, then you will be required to run a plate of some sort to mount bindings.

I really like my TD3 SW, I have 3 sets of them. I was riding UPZ boots last year in TD3 SW with no fitment problems. For my size 26 boots, I did have to flip the toe and heel blocks since UPZ has a really small footprint compared to other boots. It bears repeating, make sure your heel & toe blocks are t-nutted.

Levinnyog · November 6, 2013

I ride UPZ with TD3's and worked out well last season. The side of the toe bail left a little mark on both sides of the boot though.

Breesej: I didn't experience any issues with my UPZ boot. Does the t-nut rule apply to the newer (2012-2013) models as well? Thinking about changing to SW SI's with FinTec heels this year. Something I should be aware of? I have tried to look up older posts about this topic, but they didn't really answer my question. I could use some advise...

breeseomatic · November 6, 2013

I ride UPZ with TD3's and worked out well last season. The side of the toe bail left a little mark on both sides of the boot though.
Breesej: I didn't experience any issues with my UPZ boot. Does the t-nut rule apply to the newer (2012-2013) models as well? Thinking about changing to SW SI's with FinTec heels this year. Something I should be aware of? I have tried to look up older posts about this topic, but they didn't really answer my question. I could use some advise...

Levinnyog, my UPZ boots circa 2008 were t-nutted and I believe that newer ones are too, but it bears repeating to check out your hardware just to make sure the toe block is secure. There is a recent thread regarding TD3 Sidewinder step-ins.

Apex Insider · November 6, 2013

CP:

All Kessler snowboards from 162 and up are equipped with Apex compatible and 4x4 insert patterns. Having been through about 15 snowboards in the past 10 years, I've settled on the 168 Kessler as my primary ride. It's a great all-around choice. Nimble enough for tight, crowded Eastern slopes.

Comapedrosa · November 6, 2013

Breesej and Levinnyog, that's really helpful for the TD3/UPZs. I don't care about little or big marks as long as it holds. FWIW, no pb with the screws - i tighten them from time to time...

Apex Insider, i got the UPM-only info for the Kessler 168 form the Kessler-swiss website. Is that a helvetic restriction only? Also wondering what you ride it with - an Apex plate? what do you see as pros and cons for this combo vs. no-plates? Also, would you put the TD3 SW on this board, or keep the wiggly F2s? Here's from the Kessler-Swiss website:

The Alpine

[TABLE]

<tbody>[TR]

[TH=bgcolor: #F5F5F5, colspan: 8]Construction: sandwich. Colour: black.[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Length[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]1.50 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]1.56 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]1.62 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]1.68 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]1.71 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]1.80 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]1.85 m[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Blade[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]251 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]258 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]264 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]268 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]248 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]250 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]251 mm[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Waist[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]190 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]195 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]200 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]202 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]195 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]200 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]202 mm[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Tail[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]235 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]241 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]246 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]250 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]232 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]233 mm[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Side cut range[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]7-10 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]7-11 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]7-12 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]8-12 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]9-16 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]11.5-19 m[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]12-21 m[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Recommended stance[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]440 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]460 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]500 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]480 mm[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]500 mm[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Stance range (mm)[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]400-480[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]420-500[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]460-540[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]440-520[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]460-540[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Rider weight[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]45-65 kg[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]55-75 kg[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]65-95 kg[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]55-80 kg[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]60-85 kg[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]75-100 kg[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: pstFirstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5]Inserts[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]Standard[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]UPM[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]UPM[/TD]

[TD=class: pstNarrowCell, bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: center]UPM[/TD]

[/TR]

</tbody>[/TABLE]

Thanks!!

CP

Apex Insider · November 6, 2013

I will mention it to Kessler because the chart is misleading. The 168 has both 4x4 and ASIP* inserts. I'm looking at a 168 right now and I can send you a photo if you like. I ride it with an Apex T1 plate mainly because I like the way it absorbs the chatter and micro-vibrations of ice and frozen cord. We get a lot of that around here. Plus, I get a pretty good deal on them. The board performs just fine without a plate.

edit: Cons of a plate setup: 1) cost, 2) weight, 3) loss of low speed maneuverability. You can get used to all three though.

I have never tried the SWs. They look really well engineered and the machining is first class. Most of the riders on the World Cup ride F2 because they want a bit of flex in their setup. The F2s are simple stupid with not much to go wrong. Plus, they tell me they are lighter. Me, I just like to keep things simple and the F2 works well for me. Actually, I ride Kessler Kplate bindings which are rebadged F2s.

*Apex Standard Insert Pattern. Sorry, I don't use the term UPM because there's nothing universal about the pattern and I believe it's misleading. There are lots of other plate-specific insert patterns around - Hangl, VIST, All-Flex, for example. We developed the pattern with Kessler and the Canadian team. If anything, it should be called the Fawcett or Jasey pattern since they had as much to do with it as anyone. So I'm stubborn about it.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Apex Insider

Unicorn Poop · November 7, 2013

My Kessler 1.68 most definitely has 4X4 inserts. Just stay away from the silver topped boards or any that were used with TD1 bindings if buying used, and it might be best to stick with the F2's... ;)

Levinnyog · November 7, 2013

Levinnyog, my UPZ boots circa 2008 were t-nutted and I believe that newer ones are too, but it bears repeating to check out your hardware just to make sure the toe block is secure. There is a recent thread regarding TD3 Sidewinder step-ins.

Thanks, I have already checked out that thread as well. After all, I ended up talking to Fin today and we've went through those questions. So I'm a proud owner of a new SW SI binding and a set of Fintec heels now. Well, I guess the only thing we're missing now on east coast is snow.

Comapedrosa: with a "little mark" I mean a little dent on both sides. First it seemed the toe bail isn't wide enough or the boot is too wide (depends whether you are a pessimist or optimist), but after one season no issues at all. (knock-knock)

Comapedrosa · November 7, 2013

Unicorn Poop, that's interesting. What's the skinny on TD3 SW vs. F2...?

Apex Insider, thanks for all the info. This will end up saving me some $$$ :-)

snowboardfast · November 7, 2013

Why not just ride your f2 bindings on the Kessler?

Comapedrosa · November 7, 2013

Had heard so many interesting comments about the TD3 SW that i thought this might be the chance to try something new... In theory, liked the idea of lateral flex for my old bones... (also not sure i want to take them off the current board). But sounds like now there are some reservations...

Unicorn Poop · November 7, 2013

Unicorn Poop, that's interesting. What's the skinny on TD3 SW vs. F2...?
Apex Insider, thanks for all the info. This will end up saving me some $$$ :-)

Considering that this site is run by the manufacturer of Trench Digger bindings and people have been banned because they have expressed their concern regarding the use of TD's on metal boards, all I'm going to say is do some searching. I use F2 bindings, and all the racers in Europe use them as well. But, if you want some CNC porn on your board, you should get the TD's. :)

Comapedrosa · November 7, 2013

Merci!

Hilux · November 7, 2013

Unicorn Poop: I can't tell if you are being facetious or not on your last comment :rolleyes: You might have hit a soft spot... :eek:

A bit of my experience for context:

I'm a strong intermediate carver. I have tried a few bindings and currently also have Burton Raceplates, F2 Ti's and TD3 (had standards and converted to SI). While the TD3s look super sexy on any board and are quite the piece of art, they are extremely functional and their ease of adjustability and the way in which you do it in my opinion is far superior than any binding mentioned above. The are not just "show and no go". Moreover the build quality is outstanding and build to last. I've broken my Raceplates and F2's (I'm 190lbs and take care of my equipment) having to replace plastic parts from toe levers to cant shims...fortunately only that but the toe lever was a little scary looking down seeing it cracked (mind you the binding was 7 years old but only ridden for about 40 times total. TDs are all metal and there is comfort in knowing that the chances of any component breaking on them is probably quite less than compared to plastic in -15C (or colder) weather.

Furthermore the boot-binding-board interface feels soooo solid yet you can "tune" the ride quality and feedback from snow (and by consequence your board). My riding improved dramatically (yes from a binding, no joke...ask the folks I ride with) as soon as I switched to TD3. The ability for it to absorb chatter and crud is amazing thanks to the e-rings but you can still crank turns with confidence, just that much more comfortably and confidently.

The F2's and Raceplate designs appear to use more of the whole structure of the binding for flex and this is scary to me especially for long-term use...this idea is kind of similar in using the concrete stiffness of plastic on boot shell to regulate flex vs using a spring system such as BTS, ACSSS or stock UPZ mechanism on my RC10's. Sure racers are using F2's but they also probably have spares ready to go in the event of a failure and some are sponsored by shops and companies. I do know a few riders who have F2's (and there are countless on this forum with them) and haven't had any issues and I still have mine on my spare/rock board and they do what they are supposed to do. I'm biased though now because to me the TD's made that much of a difference.

I can't comment on TD3 SW but they sure look like they will perform well and many have already attested to this. Comapedrosa, perhaps try your F2's on the new-board-to-come and see if it works for you first. Then decide if you want to take the plunge :D

Edited November 7, 2013 by Hilux
spelling

Corey · November 7, 2013

... people have been banned because they have expressed their concern regarding the use of TD's on metal boards ...

Please post details on this or retract it. I don't believe this is true. That's not how Fin operates, and certainly not how he's told Bryan and myself to operate as moderators. I've been here a while, the small number people that I've seen banned were causing other trouble and violating forum rules.

There's no denying the old TD1s put more stress on boards, which caught the early metal board makers by surprise. The TD2/3 spreads the loads out more gently than TD1s. However, Bruce from Coiler had mentioned that he'll add some extra material around the inserts for people using Catek bindings, but not TD2/3s.

fin · November 7, 2013

This tends to come up now and then from a member who is convinced this happens. And when asked for details there are none. Corey is right Unicorn Poop, we do not arbitrarily delete threads we just don’t like. To do that would undermine the integrity of this forum and start a trend that no one wants. I always need to remind people that user always have the option to delete/modify their own response and the big one is the user who starts the thread can delete the entire thread. So a lot of time when big pissing matches go down, the thread starter takes the nuclear option, and just deletes the whole thing. That is not us doing it, even though some believe it is.

Interestingly enough, I actually appreciate the opportunity to explain or defend the products we make. Just deleting it does not give me that opportunity. For example, the topic brought up here about TD binding breaking metals boards. The story on that was when metal first came out (Kessler), they ran the metal right on the top of the board with nothing else on it. These boards ran great, but where breaking left and right. I remember seeing racers at world-cup event with 2-3 back-up boards as there where fairly sure their metal top board would break and they would need a back-up right away. Initially, some board manufacturers chose to blame our binding. But as time went on and these same boards failed with ALL brands of binding, the real issue came to light. That being aluminum is VERY susceptible to point loads and these metal top boards just could not take the point load from any binding digging into it. The board manufacturers reacted, put a final layer over the metal (a top sheet), problem solved.

The TD2/3 was designed with input from many board manufactures to make sure they agreed it would be a very board friendly binding. And that is what we have today.

Comapedrosa: my take on a few of your questions.

- The Kessler has UPM inserts, do the TD3 SW fit that?

The binding itself will only fit on a 4 hole pattern. The UPM pattern is for mounting the plate. Henry is correct, the Kessler 169 we sell also has both 4 hole and UPM. We have two here and they are this way. And Henry is also correct in that the 168 is a great size for all around riding in your neck of the woods. We would sell more 170+ here in the Rockies. But of course, boards from Donek, Coiler, Prior, etc. are also fantastic rides as well.

- Do the UPZs fit well into the TD3s? (have always had some play in the front in my F2 Race Ti)

No issues at all with fitting. Many, many years ago when they were called UPS, they had a sole block that was not to ISO standards and it did not fit too well in our binding. That was over 10 years ago and not the case now.

- Should i get a plate (thinking that i prefer the more direct contact/feel; and usually have plenty of speed - but would be VERY interested in your thoughts!)

I really like free riding with a plate. Necessary? Nope. I would honestly say try your setup with-out a plate and go from there. We’ll also be out at ECES this year and will have a bunch of plates you can try on your set-up as well. If you do go for a Boiler Plate I would go with either 4mm or 4mm Lite. Perfect for your weight and height.

Comapedrosa · November 8, 2013

Thank you all for all the great insights. Sounds like there's nothing like trying it all out in Feb :-)

Sorry if I stirred things up. Seems like a healthy debate though (the one about TDs on metal boards)...

btw, I had a pair of those "UPS" boots, first with snowpros, then the Burton 3D rat trap bindings on a PJ 6.0 Asym...

Edited November 8, 2013 by Comapedrosa

How bad is this idea?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Announcements

Recently Browsing