skategoat Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I read in the latest Mammoth snow report that tire chains are required on US395. Does that mean chains on all four tires or can you just put them on the drive wheels? Is there a place between LA and Mammoth where I can buy chains? I'm not sure what kind of rental car I'm going to have so I can't buy chains until I get there. They might be the wrong size. Do these things count as chains?: http://www.flextrax.com Crazy thing is, I live in Canada and I don't know a single person who uses chains. Yet, I have to have them in California. Strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagen Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 You will only need chains on the driven wheels. And there should be places on the way from LA to buy them. If you rent a 4x4 or all wheel drive vehicle then you usually don't need to put chains on. But in theory you need to carry chains for your car if chain controll is in effect. I'm not sure about those GoClaws... Drive save, Hagen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I rented a Ford Escape AWD for Tahoe over new years. It was coming down pretty hard at that time as it is now. I think we could've gotten by the checkpoint w/out chains and just told the CHP guy we had snow tires but I didn't want to risk it. Its a pain to have to turn around to find a place that sells chains. I bought chains at one of the many places on the way to the mountain. The closer to the mountain, the more expensive they'll be. Some places may even rent them. If you do rent a 4wd car, def ask to see if it has snow tires. Then you won't have to worry about chains. In tahoe, you either had to have chains or 4wd w/ snow tires. Should be some good snow up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I have a 4 wheel drive and during thanksgiving and new years eve got caught in heavy snow in tahoe area. I passed along many chain control points and all they wanted to know was whether I was locked into 4 wheel drive and I could drive thorugh . chain was required on all 2 wheel drives. My car had no problem what so ever in 3 foot snow (Nissan Frontier 4 wheel drive). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gawdzira Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 There are some places that you may find chains on the route to Mamoth but you are better off buying chains in L.A. where you will have a wider selection of stores in case the one or two shops you find along the path to Mammoth don't have your size. If you are renting at LAX then exit the airport on Sepulveda North. 3817 Sepulveda is and auto parts store. There are more in that area but hopefully that one will have what you need. If you keep driving north on Sepulveda, shortly after you cross Washington there is an entrance (left turn lane) to the 405 north which is the road you will take to get up to the mountain. If you buy on the road there is a shopping complex soon after you get on the 14 (maybe 10 miles?). I don't remember the name of the town. After that you will also drive through Bishop which is a town large enough for an auto parts store. The traction devices in your link will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagen Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 ...about snow tires - they also let you go through with all season tires. I don't have snow tires on my car and never got turned around. If you rent an all wheel drive vehicle it usually comes with all season tires. Also when you pick your car up, don't tell them that you are planning to put chains on it - they don't like that... Hagen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I don't know what an "All-Season" tire is. In snow, you need "Snow Tread" tires which are identified with a stamping on the sidewall, either "MS", "M/S", "M+S", "Mud and Snow", etc. There are three chain-control levels in CA, the most common is R2. This requires chains on the drive wheels of all vehicles (except four wheel drive with snow tread tires all four wheels). This is what you are most likely to encounter when you see chain controls. Even if you have four-wheel drive with the proper tires, you are still required to carry chains in R2 control areas. Those cables and other chain substitures are legal, they are called "Traction devices". For reference, R1 is chains OR snow tread tires required, and R3 is chains required on everything, no exceptions. I've never seen that happen, usually they close the road at that point. Here is a really handy chart that shows what controls are in effect in Northern CA. There might be one for Southern CA too. It's a PDF, but it's supposedly updated constantly. http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist3/projects/chainmap/chain_control_map.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsider Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 i dot think thoes flex trax will be acceped as chains. i just got back from the tahoe area after being passed by every single 4x4 that came up behind us. i would recomend a 4x4 w/ snow tires, as your overall travel time will be greatly improved. if no 4x4, then you are faced with the decision of regular chains vs cable chains. the regular chains are easier to put on, and do not require zip-ties to secure the escess cable. Cable chains soude better when driving, but can have a tendencyto break nd require zip-ties to secure the ends to the rest of the chain so that they dont fly around and cut your brake lines. good luck, enjot the pow, and bring a tarp to lay on when you are installing the chains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagen Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Steve, you almost got me confused there - my English so bad... But a quick google on all season showed me that I wasn't really off there. "all season" seems to be a common name for tires that you can drive in all seasons... ...and most of them also are M+S rated. And yes you are right - tires need to have at least the M+S rating to be considered snow tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 The "Flex Trax" might be OK. Dig this, man: The California vehicle code section 605 defines tire traction devices as follows: " Tire Traction Devices are devices or mechanisms having a composition and design capable of improving vehicle traction, braking and cornering ability upon snow or ice-covered surfaces. Tire traction devices shall be constructed and assembled to provide sufficient structural integrity and to prevent accidental detachment from vehicles. Tire traction devices shall, at the time of manufacture or final assembly, bear a permanent impression indicating the name, initials or trademark of the assembling company or primary manufacturer, and the country in which the devices were manufactured or assembled in final form." Hagen: You're right, I just meant that I don't know if "All season" is anything more than hype. if the all-season tires have the M+S on them, they'd be OK. M+S doesn't seem to mean much, I've seen some not-very-agressive treads with that designation, but they look for it at the chain control stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagen Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 ...you are right - the other thing that I found during my little research was that even the M+S marking doesn't mean much: For a tire to get this designation, it must have a specified tread-to-void ratio, however it does not mean that the tire has passed any actual tests for it effectiveness in severe conditions. But then it's mainly the driver that keeps the car on the road anyway. ...it's funny that you see mostly the big SUVs and pick up trucks in the ditch when it starts snowing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted January 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 One of the problems with 4WD or RWD is that the drive wheels sometimes work against you. Let's say you are sliding towards a ditch. The nose of the car is facing the ditch, so you turn the wheel away from the ditch. Problem is, your rear wheels are still pushing you into the ditch. Since your front wheels have no traction, they are not steering you. The only way to counter this is to throw the transmission into neutral and then steer. People driving automatics (which is like 95% of all SUVs) don't know to do this. You have a better chance in a manual transmission since it's more instinctive to depress the clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy S. Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Hey Skategoat, Don't get me started on how stupid our CA chain restrictions are. I grew up in NH and never needed chains in my entire life. That said, you'd be amazed at how many truly stupid people there are on the roads in CA. Remember that it doesn't rain one drop all summer in much of the state. As a result, people often get by on minimal tire tread. Heck, the first few rain storms of the season you'd think it was snowing by all the accidents and spin-outs. Here are my recommendations to folks: Reserve a 4WD vehicle and watch the weather forecasts. As much as we malign the meteorologists, they usually get the general situation fairly close. The day before your departure, check to see if it looks like snow at all during your visit. If not, change your reservation down to a normal car. If you do get a 2wd car and get caught in snow, buy chains. You can't buy chains at the chain check, but there are guys there who will put them on for $20 if you don't want to get wet and dirty. Also check out www.tirechains.com. They sell these cheap little strap-on chain things that will get you past the chain control. What you do after that is up to you (you may elect to keep them on if there's lots of snow on the road. Either way, as you drive, you'll notice that the only cars in the ditch are SUVs and Jeeps. They are the really ignorant people who think that 4WD translates to "ice brakes". Also, they probably have no tread left on their M+S tires. Oh, the other fun ones to watch are the guys with cars like Trans Ams and 2WD Pick-up trucks who put their chains on their front tires (and the Toyotas with the chains on the rear). Then they wonder why their tires are spinning. Like I said, the best thing is to watch the weather report. For instance if you were arriving today and staying through the weekend, right now I'd suggest getting a normal car and taking your chances. Chances are you won't have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Randy, not sure what you mean about the restrictions. Most of the people I see up there need to be forced to put the chains on and slow down, they aren't mentally equipped to handle the lack of traction with skill alone. I'm glad they make them put chains on. Most of the problems are simply the result of driving too fast (40+) in the snow. It works on Kansas on a straight highway, not in CA on a mountain road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted January 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Actually, judging by Randy's post, the chain restrictions sound like a good idea. A good safety measure for those people unaccustomed to winter driving. There are few snowstorms that you can't negotiate safely if you just go slow enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 He's sure right about the SUV's and Jeeps. I see them in the ditches all the time, but almost never sedans with chains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I will preach 4 wheel drives as the day is long, but in the hands of the inexperienced, it could be deadly. Yes it is true you can go faster in the snow and hold corners and generally get more traction, .but your vehicle still won't stop any faster than a regular vehicle. Some people with 4x4 will drive faster because of all the traction, but when they do lose it, it is too late. If you drive normally, you have a better chance of getting there. I remember driving with a young kid in Quebec. He was driving a car with studded tires, he was driving like a maniac, I asked him why he is driving like that and he replied with " I have studded tire, I can." One other thing I learned too is if you are sliding straight with the front tires turned in a 4x4 if you press the throttle a bit, the front tires will grab and take you where you want to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by skategoat The only way to counter this is to throw the transmission into neutral and then steer. People driving automatics (which is like 95% of all SUVs) don't know to do this. or let off the gas? Im drivin an RWD explorer...been up and back to bachelor in some pretty ****ty conditions (altho the road is almost dead straight with only two or three big curves over 20 miles) and Ive lost the back end a few times, but...I guess I just know what Im doin and instinctively let off the gas, but I definitely turn the wheel back into the turn and its always worked. Never understood "steer with the skid?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 If just means that if you steer in the direction you are skidding in, the front will have less drag than the rear, and you will straighten out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 so...if my back end starts pitching LEFT...Im supposed to steer...right? wait..no...steer INTO...like...youre doing a slide turn on your toes and you want to shift back to straight so you unweight the..er..uh... Im pretty confident I know how to drive in ****ty weather. Ice sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 No, if your back end goes left, you steer left. You steer towards the direction you are sliding, not the direction you are pointing. That takes friction off the front wheels, unless you are driving a forklift. In a forklift, you would steer away from the skid. That was the first thing they taught me when I worked in a warehouse, in case I hit any spilled milk or jelly and started to slide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 why in the WORLD would ANYONE steer TOWARD what they are sliding towards? It makes no sense whatsoever anyway...like I said..I know how to drive:) been through my fair share of slides, some of them started intentionally so I could pretend I was a rally driver in my 84 subaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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