lowrider Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 After a difficult year of snow making and grooming the local bump finally stepped up and improved the grooming on our best carving run. It was only after an instructor (while working) slid off a patch of ice hit a tree breaking his leg. Nite riding sucks. It was one of those ice patches that form down hill from the snow guns where the water drains from the pile of wet snow. It forms early in the season and stays all season. Is there an effective method of grooming this ice, covering it or preventing it from forming in the first place ? Years ago when snow guns sprayed less water and were moved more often this was less of an issue. Now with the ability to pump massive amt's of water and move even larger piles of snow (slush) it is evident everywhere the piles formed. Any groomer operators or snow makers out there have any ideas how this could be handled better ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Not running the snow cannons when it's not cold enough to form snow would be a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 In Canada ( Ontario ) resorts spend most of their budget to try and capture the Christmas $$$$ only to close after the March school break with full snow cover on most slopes. Managment, marketing and public insanity results in a disfunctional ski industry that caters to unrealistic expectations .It leaves we diehards scrambling around trying to ride the remaining places that do stay open for the sping skiing experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 the hill local to me digs a drainage channel and covers it with a half-section of corrugated plastic pipe for this sort of thing. they also put walkways and planking over the burns and rivers we have all over the hills. i fell off one of the bridges at the start of the season and dinged the tail of my lovely donek rev. sniff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Sounds like your hill management at least tries. We have ice patches and water boils that show up in the same place for the last 50 years. The workers are willing to work at the problems but management doesn't seem to be willing to let them. Frustrating for them i"m sure even more for members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 How much drainage infrastructure is actually cut into the dirt? Mountain High has nasty melt and snowmaking, but not a huge amount of the problem you describe, but I know the whole resort is littered with drainage ditches everywhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Some was done 25 years ago when they put in one lift but you would have to see it to belive what they did. The loading terminal is actually the lowest point so every spring it floods with the first melt. A new lift installed this year is further up hill so it's high and dry but with a 300 foot vertical we lost lots of hill. I'm of the opinion that once a puddle appears they feel they are justified in closing. This is a member financed not for profit but operated much like Cuba. I attend annual meetings with suggestions but they ignore mine as well as the staff. I really appreciate it when i visit other resorts and see what an excellent job they do often with fewer resources. Especially the ones that attempt to stay open on limited terrain at the end of the season. I rember going to Killington years ago in May just to ride a few runs the vibe around the place was electric something you rarely experience today. Tailgate barbercue season is approaching enjoy it if you get the chance it is a dying tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboarderdude Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 alright, first you need to understand how the guns work. assuming you are talking about fan guns: the outer nozzles are water only nozzles. there is one in the very middle of the gun, inside it. it runs air with a little bit of water. The air is the only reason you can make snow above -10f. now: draining the guns and hoses only results in <10 gallons of water. if the ice is on top of the snow, it is because water isn't getting "nuc-ed" with the air, and drifting. water draining from the piles drains down to ground level and then runs down hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Sadly the stuff they make here is slush and they trowel it out with groomers them pulverize it with the tillers. So the bottom of every pile is almost always solid ice. As mentioned before in the old days with small hoses and underpowered groomers the guns were moved more often and since it was easier to push snow down hill smaller piles were made and as a result i believe less ice. Now the piles are huge as are the ice footprints left behind. I'm comming to the conclusion some schooling of staff at a larger resort would improve the situation but my plea to have staff visit other resorts falls on deaf ears. I guess their afraid if you teach them too much they will go and work somewhere they are appreciated ? Water boils from ground water is also an issue but the only cure that i know of is to tile drain the water away. Work is under way to double the water resevoir so i suspect that next season they will be able to make even bigger piles of slush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Water is presumably cheaper than air, and the appearance of more snow trumps the utility of drier snow. The solution requires only resource management and a willingness to employ same. It does not sound like that is in the cards unless the shareholders wish it so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Nature does it best i guess. Trend seem to be fan guns and snow max. The best terrain this year has been on natural snow but it comes late and leaves early. Man i wish there was a cure for stupid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Man i wish there was a cure for stupid! Zombie Apocalypse w/Fresnel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 What are the chances of getting a box across the boarder in my snowboard boots ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Just curious, Any of you guys ever made snow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crote123 Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 if anyone understands French and is interested, a local TV show made a segment on snowmaking. Starts at 1:00 and ends around 9:30. http://www.tou.tv/la-semaine-verte/S2012E26 The Bromont ski station is my local hill while the St-Bruno is about 15mins drive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacopodotti Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Come to Campo Imperatore 100km from Rome only natural snow until the end of may. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Campo sounds like what would be the ideal resort . I'm imagining cougars in big sunglasses sunning themselves as i type this. Heading to Canadain Rockies in mid April but most resorts there closed by then. Note to Dingbat i don't make snow making myself but have a cable lift and groomer for my own small hill on the farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Nature does it best i guess. Depends on what you mean by "best". It's a helluva lot nicer to ski on if properly groomed, but it doesn't last as long. There's little wrong with artificial snow, as long as it's made properly, and it lasts way longer. Again, if it's properly made and groomed. If you're blowing slush, then you're trying to make snow with too high an air temperature to start with, it'll be horrible to ski and groom, and won't last properly. It's a waste of time, in short. As for snowmax, I don't like it. I think it may well be banned in France - we certainly don't use additives any more and I don't know of any resort over here that does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 "It'll be horrible to ski and groom, and won't last properly. It's a waste of time, in short." That pretty much sums up this season in Southern Ontario. Is it typical in Europe (the Alps) to concentrate all you resources to target the Christmas market and discourage or close with lots of snow available for spring skiing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboarderdude Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Just curious, Any of you guys ever made snow? yes, I have. I ran my gun 231 hours between december 16th and janurary 31st. I would be over 350 hours but my pressure washer motor broke the night of the 31st. wow... a week and a half of snowmaking in a 6 week period. only cost me $87 in water, even though I used 25,000 gallons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenchman Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 I made snow for a few years at a local resort. If there is large amounts of water bleed from snow piles then the snow guns were not properly adjusted to the weather conditions. You can make good snow in marginal temps just not much! When you try to make alot of snow in marginal temps the snow will be very wet and may bleed off water. If you want to keep it drier you can but it will not produce as much snow. Your local resort is just pushing its limits too far and they don't care if they make quality snow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Is it typical in Europe (the Alps) to concentrate all you resources to target the Christmas market and discourage or close with lots of snow available for spring skiing ? Certainly not in France. We have 2 big bits of season this year (Xmas/New Year, which is minor, and 4 weeks of school holidays in "February", which is where we make 75% of our money). Most years there's also a third period (Easter school holidays around the end of April). Where I work we're generally relatively busy the rest of the time as well, but there are a lot of resorts which are totally dead outside those periods. It's rare for resorts to stay open much beyond the easter break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Interesting school break is usually pretty quiet here followed by spring splash the next weekend then close.that's when i go into mourning for the snow that remains and no access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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