board characteristics for pow

[Guest]

13 inches? How the heck can you control a board with such a narrow stance? I can see maybe for all-out carving, but for anything other than that your manueverability is severely limited. And for pow? What about bumps or trees? Can you actually maintain control with such a narrow stance? I find that if I go under 17 inches my ability to turn the board sans carving or to feather the edge is dreastically reduced. And I'm only 5'5". I ride with an 18.75 inch stance.

[lonerider]

Carving powder should be nearly effortless if you did your research before picking a board off of the shelf and laying your finances on the line. If I could put this to anyone more plainly' date=' I'd be glad to oblige. But being a big fan of physics... Total Length should be no less than 97% of riders Total Hieght. And stance widths should never excede 10% (in inches) of a riders total wieght. (ie. 180#'s = max stance width of 18")

Hey Lonerider. Yes, a 13" stance should be ideal for you for carving powder. I, myself, have been riding with various stance widths using this same technique over quite some period of time. When I was trying to sell skiers into buying snowboards back in the day I often got asked "how do I set up my bindings", and this was the result I came up with over the course of time. And no, it's not biased toward the heavier rider at all. In 1991 I was only 156#'s. On my race decks, I rode with an 11" stance width, and on my freeride boards, I rode with a 14" stance. And it worked the same then as it does now that I'm still 5'7" but weigh in at 194#'s. (Thanks Nautilus!!) Just give it a try, lay out on a few carves, and see how your board responds. Arguing it out with me will only serve to take more time off of your life than what is required to change the position of six or eight bolts.

Thanks for your post.

Juss[/quote']

Uh huh, just a change of 6-8 bolts... and drilling your own inserts - you do realize that virtually all modern snowboards have a minimum stance width of 17" (industry standard for mens snowboards). This include all $1500 of your Glissade Big Guns, your F2 Silberfeil, all the Swallow-tail Powder boards including the Prior PowStick and Nitro Powder Gun. The same is again for Rad-Air, Donek, and Coiler. (See I do *research* too... like reading your profile... and going to websites and reading the board specifications).

Soo.... are you saying that none of these snowboards can be properly ridden in powder? Where are you getting this magical narrow stance snowboards? What special narrow-stanced snowboards have you been putting your sub-150 "disciples" on?

[Guest Juss_Tredd'n]

Jim,

Bumps and trees present their own dilemas, though I don't think I need to remind anyone there are drops, spines, and couliers everywhere you look where I'm from and I don't differ from this method between riding in Washington State, Idaho, Montana, or in Alaska. For the sake of this topic, I've intentionally been quite firm in stating that the application I am talking about is "carving powder" and have not otherwise been application specific.

Certainly you should have less to question in this method given your location. Being in Aspen where the midwestern snow contains less moisture, you ought to be more used to drier powder than someone who is continually getting battered with wet Pacific snowpack. The only reason trees might pose a problem is after the "tree wells" begin to form later in the season. Otherwise, I suppose it is up to your level of carving. Are you accustomed to laying out on powder turns through the trees? If so, you should have no more difficulty turning your board with a closer-in stance width. There is plenty of control in a short stance. And to a varying degree, I believe it makes for a smoother ride as well. Your body will have more extension and you'll be able to utilize more of your entire body for holding your turns rather than spending your energy stabilizing an antiquated tuck position solely with your legs. If you have some older videos of Craig Kelly, you'll see how he used full body extensions to maximise the effectiveness of his turns. Which is why he appeared to ride more gracefully than, say, even Steve Graham (same era) who would be using almost all leg to hold turns.

Just as I pointed out to Lonerider, I'd recommend that you try this stance option and see how well it works for you. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with what you find. I just put the tape measure to my 195cm to double check, and it's set at 18.75". Again, I weigh in at 194. My 175cm and 185cm are dead-on 18". And the only reason I go a bit wider on the 195cm is that I use a cant on the front binding.

Thanks for your inquiry,

Juss

[nekdut]

Juss,

I would really like to see some video of you riding both powder and carving the hardpack. You seem to have some very different ideas of stance and setup to many of us here. From your profile:

FREECARVE:Catek 58 deg front / 36 deg back w/ 11" stance set back 1" from center

That is a WAAY narrow stance. I ride almost twice that! And that's quite a lot of splay, do you ride with a Pureboarding #one style? I'm not knockin' you at all, just very curious, and I'd like to learn about as many styles of riding as possible. :D

Edit: Oh yeah as Arvin mentioned, did you have to tap your own inserts to achieve that narrow stance width on your boards?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Neil, is your race room white and pink or grey and pink? 178cm right?

Post a photo if you get a chance. I love that you are still riding it in the pow.

Did you know they made a "Racer" only downhill board for DH in a 213cm??

Nose cut out. Crazy fast!!

My race room is grey and pink, and labelled 178 although it measures more like 181. I haven't ridden it for a few years because the Elfgen bindings on it only fit my old Koflachs. If I remember I'll try to snap a pic.

[Guest Juss_Tredd'n]

First, let me point out that an error was established earlier in a certain post declaring 17" stance widths to be the industry standard. While many board companies have gone to great lengths to accomodate so-called "progressive" riders with wider stance options, it is more relative to manufacturers who specialize more in park or freestyle boards. Just three quick examples to disprove the statement- and I'll move on:

Glilssade "Big Gun" 195cm: Shortest stance width available = 13.5" (obviously not built for a 135# rider)

Palmer "Burn SE" 175cm: Shortest stance width available = 12.5" (agian, not built with the 125# rider in mind)

Volkl "Selecta" 175cm: Shortest stance width available = 11.5" (Need I say more)

It's free advice- so take it or leave it. Whether or not you decide to try it is up to you. And likewise, whether or not I will debate it is up to me... and I choose not to debate it. There is nothing to debate. I've been snowboarding a good many years on all types of terrain, all types of boards, and all types of gear setups. So when it comes to throwing down arguements, I can easily stand my own ground. But I choose not to. There's really no point in it. And quite frankly, it's a waste of time.

Now then, to field the question of drilling: Yes, I do own one board that I had to mount with T-Bolts... because my Aggression didn't come with inserts. When I got it, it was a blank deck. As for how I achieve narrower stances on some of my other boards- on occasion I use a machined aluminum cant plate that I machined to adjust the front binding position back an extra 1/4" to 1". I use it in tandem with a riser, allowing an additional 3/16" (6mm) space between my boots and the edge contact of my board. The most effective application for this is on windpack, "boiler plate", or suncupped conditions in areas where you might be going into/out of lee or windward slope angles. Lets face it, no two sides of a spine or a coulier ride the same unless they receive equal sun, wind, etcetera.

As for the appearance of bewilderment at my stance angles on my freecarving decks; I have set my stance as such to accomodate for the terrain I ride. Not every chute opens into a bowl, and not every rock outcropping has a perfect 65 degree outrun. In order to maintain a deep carving angle with my bindings on my freecarve decks without sacrificing landing stability, I monkeyed around with the stance and found that this works the best for all around riding. I've used this same stance, (or a close variant of it), since 1991 on all of my assymetrical boards. I still have a stance that is strongly angled for turning flat, and I can still take necessary drops without losing much needed stability. It also seems to have helped keep the tip from having too much overplay on snowpack that generally causes chatter, though chattering can also be easily circumvented with proper detuning.

Videos? Sorry... I work in the oil industry, not the alpine film industry. As I suggested previously, Craig Kelly's stance widths tended to coincide with this same "short stance" riding style. And there is a fair amount of footage to choose from. Another rider to look for would be Damian Sanders- who for those of you too young to remember rode hardshells, even in the halfpipe. He's another good one to watch, but most of the films that featured him riding in the late 80's/early 90's center their attention on how he mastered freestyle on plate bindings.

By the way- the sunrise from Artist's Point at Mount Baker this morning was breathtaking. So much more life-enriching and enjoyable than receiving petty little arguments in this forum.

Juss

[Mark.Andersen]

Hey Juss, welcome to Bomberonline. People tend to get a bit grumpy around here in the summertime. Don't sweat it. ;)

I was very interested in your analysis of friction and weight dispersion for pow riding. How do you think the new "fish-type" powder shapes change things? What about swallowtails?

On the stance width debate, I'm wondering if perhaps part of the heated discussion here is resulting from differing ways of measuring stance width? Are you measuring 11.5" from "center-to-center"? If so, how can you get there without drilling extra holes?

I checked out the Volkl website and the Selecta 175 is quoted as having a minimum stance width of 48cm or about 19". I'm guessing that is measured with the bindings centered in their screw-slots. So, to get from 19" to 11.5" you'd have to have 4" of adjustment on each binding. Most bindings have disks around 4" in *diameter* and you'd need 4" of radius to get that amount of adjustment.

I've heard in the past people quoting their stance width from the inner edge of each binding. If that's how you're measuring, I think if you measured center-to-center, you'd be alot closer to "normal" stance width's of ~18-20".

FWIW, I've been gradually narrowing my stance width on my Pow ride. I'm down to about 18" center-to-center on my Oxyygen Shogun 170, and that is the absolute minimum I could achieve without getting out the power tools. I'm riding plates/hardboots though, so that might have some impact on the weight distribution.

Have you ridden the Selecta? What do you think? It looks like a "fish-type" shape, but with a whole lot more size. The 20mm taper isn't quite as much as the Fish (30mm), but it's inline with the Prior Khyber. 10cm of extra length over the biggest Khyber and 15cm over the biggest Fish sounds pretty interesting.

Mark

[Neil Gendzwill]

Palmer "Burn SE" 175cm: Shortest stance width available = 12.5" (agian' date=' not built with the 125# rider in mind)[/quote']

I think you're measuring wrong or you've got your metric conversions wrong. According to this randomly googled website, stance width ranges from 440 mm to 660 mm, which is 17.3" to 26". If you measure from the inside holes, minimum width is 15.7".

[Guest Juss_Tredd'n]

Mark: Thanks for your questions and understanding. I appreciate it.

Surely it is possible to measure center-to-center, however, the general rule of thumb when setting up stances for newbies coming in to buy their first board was to take a measurement of their natural gate, (feet shoulder width apart, flat on the floor), from the inside of one foot to the other. When measuring a newbie hardshell rider, the measurement was more like this: stand with feet shoulder width apart, put weight to front of toes, and rotate body 90 degrees without lifting your feet. Take the measurement from the inside center of both feet. That was the original methodology...

I use the same measurement techniques now. Inside center of foot to inside center of foot for measuring binding placement. Over the course of time, I've replaced this technique with the one I've described previously in my post entitled "Wieght a minute"- though I still measure the stance width using the measurement between the inside center leading edge of both bindings, (ie. boot to boot), and round it up or down to the nearest 1/4" for the sake of not having to confuse things with 3/8" here or 1/10" there. Since the introduction of dial mount systems, the industry has tended to go the way of taking the measurement from the center of the mounting disks. Unfortunately, this is still by far an inaccurate method because some of those dials are slotted to adjust the binding forward/back or front edge/back edge. Ultimately, taking the boot to boot measurement is the most accurate.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Elfgin CX911s or Two Pc Plates?

"Super Pipes" ?? That was THE boot back then!

Great oldschool set up! Bryan

[Neil Gendzwill]

Two piece plates, Koflach Damian model boots (pink Valugga Lights with the built-in gaitors, which I cut off).

[lonerider]

First' date=' let me point out that an error was established earlier in a certain post declaring 17" stance widths to be the industry standard. Just three quick examples to disprove the statement- and I'll move on:

Glilssade "Big Gun" 195cm: Shortest stance width available = 13.5" (obviously not built for a 135# rider)

Volkl "Selecta" 175cm: Shortest stance width available = 11.5" (Need I say more)

[/quote']

Here are the numbers copied and pasted from the manufacturer's websites

Glissade "Big Gun" 195

http://www.glissadesnowboards.com/biggun.html# - 17.7"

Volkl "Selecta" 175cm

http://www.voelkl-snowboards.de/voelkl/start.htm - Minimum Stance 48 cm or 18.89"

Update: I see, you are using really archaic measuring conventions. Even taking that into account (1" on each side to slide the bindings closer, 2" to measure from side to side, that's still only 12.89 for the Volkl Selecta. However, now that I realize you are using wholly non-standard measuring conventions I'll let it pass... (but in my opinion it would be like saying that you are 5ft 10inches tall... if you measure yourself in shoes and count my hair sticking straight up because that's how everyone sees you).

Surely it is possible to measure center-to-center' date=' however, the general rule of thumb when setting up stances for newbies coming in to buy their first board was to take a measurement of their natural gate, (feet shoulder width apart, flat on the floor), from the inside of one foot to the other. When measuring a newbie hardshell rider, the measurement was more like this: stand with feet shoulder width apart, put weight to front of toes, and rotate body 90 degrees without lifting your feet. Take the measurement from the inside center of both feet. That was the original methodology... I use the same measurement techniques now.

... around riding. I've used this same stance, (or a close variant of it), since 1991 on all of my assymetrical boards. I still have a stance that is strongly angled for turning flat, and I can still take necessary drops without losing much needed stability. It also seems to have helped keep the tip from having too much overplay on snowpack that generally causes chatter, though chattering can also be easily circumvented with proper detuning.

choose from. Another rider to look for would be Damian Sanders- who for those of you too young to remember rode hardshells, even in the halfpipe. He's another good one to watch, but most of the films that featured him riding in the late 80's/early 90's center their attention on how he mastered freestyle on plate bindings.

[/quote']Again you are just simply out of date. It might have been the methodology back fifteen years ago... but times have changed, and so have stances measurements. The standard now is to measure from center-to-center - you can say what you want about whether it's the correct way... but that's what *everyone* has been doing for the past ten years... and you are the one out of sync.

Damian Sanders was a great rider... but equipment and snowboarding methodology has advanced a lot in the last two decades. Feel free to keep up the old-school riding style alive... but I've seen it and I don't think it's effective anymore. Of course that is my opinion and you are entitled to yours.

Again I would like to see some video of yourself... just because you are drilling oil in Alaska a lot of the time is no excuse, doing a short video clip takes relatively little time... all you need is a camcorder/digital camera and a friend to video you, I'm sure you can acquire both of those will relative ease.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ultimately' date=' taking the boot to boot measurement is the most accurate.[/quote']

That's highly debatable. But using a non-standard measuring system and then getting into a pissing match over it with a bunch of people on the net when you clearly knew we were talking apples and oranges is just asshattery.

[Guest Juss_Tredd'n]

And to think I'm normally the one reminding people that Koflach wasn't just a mountaineering/ice climb boot manufacturer. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in this world. My Koflach Superpipes are definately a little worse for wear, but they are probably the best boot I've ever used. It is getting impossible to find liners for them, though. If anyone knows where a stash of them are being kept- please let me know. If I can get in on the Lottery for the Mt. Baker Banked Slalom this year, it would be a hoot to ride my old school setup with my otherwise retired Fritche plates, Koflach Superpipes, Aggression Assualt, and day-glo Spider speedsuit.

The liklihood of me winning the Banked Slalom: Zero to none.

The possibility of being the best dressed on the hill: Not likely

The looks from people who believe snowboarding is all jumps and rails: PRICELESS

Juss

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Cool boots Neil! , I know the ones. Amazing what Damian could do in plates.

Avalanche really "Bet the Farm" on hard boots / plates at a time when US Freestyle wanted no part. Remember the "Uni-Plates" , basically like inverted crampons without the spikes?

Juss, ever feel in you just "Stepped In It"?

Details are seldom overlooked here on BOL.

Dude, enjoy the view and again welcome to BOL.

You have definitely spiced up the forum this week.

Thanks for joining the OSB Forum as well.

Look forward to your visiting us here in the "South"

Bryan

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Juss, did you go to the anniversary "Legends" Mt Baker race? Year before last? Check out some of the photos from the "Donner Legends Race". You will see some familiar faces. What an honor to finally meet these pioneers!

Shred Daily Dude!! Bryan

[Guest Juss_Tredd'n]

Bryan: I would have posted a reply earlier, but I was climbing all day at Index. I saw that you left me an email in my personal inbox which I will read/respond to tomorrow, as well as checking in on your other more friendlier forum. Thanks for the warning, by the way- though I pretty much figured it out after Lonerider's first post that he's only looking for an arguement. Realizing that people from the San Francisco Bay Area have so much more experience riding powder than Alaskans has led me to the conclusion that I should resign from the conversation. (I jest) If only I had started boarding in 1985 instead of waiting until 1986 to sell my skis....

Niel: Sorry if you got the impression that I was involved in a "pissing match". I thought I made it relatively clear that I wasn't interested in getting into any debate. I retired from pissing matches after my divorce, when I got to keep my pension all to myself and my ex-wife got exactly what her adultress-ass deserved... nothing. I'm not a Prosecuting Attorney, I'm an Engineer. I leave pissing matches to the professionals.

Juss

[gdboytyler]

...Realizing that people from the San Francisco Bay Area have so much more experience riding powder than Alaskans has led me to the conclusion that I should resign from the conversation...

This has been an interesting thread.

I have a daughter, an ex-wife and several ex-in-laws that live in Wasilla, and I wouldn't take any of their advice when it comes to snowboarding :D

I also wouldn't take advice from anyone that advised me to use a 13" stance (since I weigh 130 lb) or someone that used outdated methods of measuring stance - unless they posted video/pics of themselves totally ripping in powder.

Now, Juss’ recommendation of a 13” stance measured from inside of boot to inside of boot, is about 16.5” at center of disk. I was using that stance width about 10 years ago. I doubt that all of the AK snowboarders are still caught in the same time warp.

Some the crew from the Bay area highly recommended the O-Sin 4807, which prompted me to get one last season. Great board and great piece of advice.

So in this small sample, when it comes to giving snowboarding advice, Bay Area =1 and Wasilla = 0.

[Guest Randy S.]

5ft 10inches tall... if you measure yourself in shoes and count my hair sticking straight up because that's how everyone sees you).

:lol: You crazy aZns and your spiky hair. No wonder I thought you were taller. Imma check for platform flip-flops next time I see you too. ;)

I hadn't paid any attention to this thread in a while. I've been missing the and . I shoulda got some

Treddin, did you start all this just as a troll, or were you really measuring stance width from inside to inside? That's just plain silly.

I do agree with Treddin that longer boards work better in pow. Even the 178 is kinda short when the pow is light and fluffy (which is pretty rare in Tahoe). Also, moving stance back a bit makes a huge difference in float. I suppose it will slow you down as well, but it is so hard to find that perfect spot with just the right amount of nose float but that doesn't sink the tail. I tend to opt for moving it back a little too much in pow. I can always weight my forward foot a bit more, which is the stance I'd probably take if I'm aiming for max speed in pow anyway.

Arvin, I think we're going to put you on my 210 next season just to see what happens.

This thread is getting like the Aisling/Michelle date/misogyny thread. Clearly we all need some snow soon.

[Mike T]

Even the 178 is kinda short when the pow is light and fluffy (which is pretty rare in Tahoe). Also, moving stance back a bit makes a huge difference in float.

I only logged one day on my 178 last season, on a morning that started out quite fluffy, and I was very happy with it even w/ the stance centered on the inserts.

Arvin, I think we're going to put you on my 210 next season just to see what happens.

Take some pictures, eh? (Just as long as what happened to me on it doesn't happen to Arvin!

[Guest Randy S.]

Take some pictures, eh? (Just as long as what happened to me on it doesn't happen to Arvin!

:lol:

I'll make sure visibility is more than 5 feet when we go out. I've done a cornice on a 185 race board before, but I could see where I was going. What happened to us that day you messed up your ankle was partly our own fault for not minding the elements. That was an expensive day. I wrecked your Coiler at the same time that you wrecked your ankle/knee. Dang.

[Mike T]

:lol:

I'll make sure visibility is more than 5 feet when we go out. I've done a cornice on a 185 race board before, but I could see where I was going. What happened to us that day you messed up your ankle was partly our own fault for not minding the elements. That was an expensive day. I wrecked your Coiler at the same time that you wrecked your ankle/knee. Dang.

Oh, that was *mostly* our own faults! Although Ski Patrol shoulda had some ropes up in that area. I didn notice they had it marked often, but not always, last season.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Hi Randy, I was sorry to hear about Mike's injury and that you did not get to ride with the Bachelor Crew. However it was lucky I even got to meet you!

I seldom go in for lunch. With the storm and riding with the "Group" , it worked out good that you happen to be at Pine Martin. I hope you come up and visit Mike T again and give us a "Shout Out".

Bryan