SEJ Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 I'm working on a 170 Madd that has the X wing coming loose. (Yellow sidewalls) I think JG placed it as 03 or 04 looking at it. I've decided the best thing is to remove the whole thing and re-install it. Has anybody done this before? It looks like the original install was done with double sided tape. Any input from the Madd followers would be helpful. I'll follow up on this thread as I proceed. It will be interesting to see the difference in camber, stiffness, and torsional stiffness with or without the X wing. I've figured out how to maintain the original camber through this project, but I'm wondering what the right adhesive should be. JG, Billy, anybody? Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 you might want to talk to Bruce @ Coiler about this. I know he has dismantled madds before and may be able to offer advice. (Or JG or Shaggy might be able to help?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 SEJ, Some of the boards of that generation suffered from a glue problem. If the top sheet pops, the guts may not be far behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I'm working on a 170 Madd that has the X wing coming loose. (Yellow sidewalls) I think JG placed it as 03 or 04 looking at it. I've decided the best thing is to remove the whole thing and re-install it. Has anybody done this before? It looks like the original install was done with double sided tape. I've haven't run into this trouble, but am waiting patiently for your updates on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Your VERY best bet would be to get it into a press. The best place to have this done...; call Vin Quenneville at "Out of Bounds" snowboard shop in Killington VT- have him find "Emillio Zappata" AKA Mr. Anderson- an American Airlines Pilot who had several regular boards modified with X wing top sheets- they were very durable- I never heard of any delams.. He would know where to send it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted May 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I've figured out a way to pretty easily build a table that matches the camber. I plan on doing this before the wing comes off. I can use this as a clamping jig with a ton of clamps during the install. Boardy recommended marine epoxy for the adhesive. I've got loctite Hysol, but it only has a five minute pot life. I'm now looking at West Systems G Flex. It will be a month or so before I can start this due to other things. I will document the entire process. Keep the comments coming! Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I used these epoxies for a base repair but they have all types in small amounts: http://www.sanford-epoxy.com/Epoxy.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Just few comments... If the original method was some sort of d/sided tape, or a soft, thick layer of glue, then the thing acted as a sheer layer, to some extent. By laminating it back with epoxy, you'll have much firmer bond, it would act as a part of the beam. In other words, board would ride slightly different. Those carbon sheets are very thin, aren't they? You likely don't need to build the camber table... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted May 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 BlueB, It was in fact installed with d sided tape. I agree with your thoughts on performance. If the tape did allow for movement in the bond, I can't see how the x wing did much at all for performance. There's simply not much to it. I would think it needs to be BONDED to the board to become part of the top chord to add much of anything. Again, it will be interesting to see the difference in flex once I pull it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Hey, here is an idea: Measure the flex before, then after removal, then ater reinstall. Prop the board at widest points, measure distance to the floor, then weigh the center with 10, or 20kg and measure the distance again. Would be quite interesting to see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Tat Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Wouldn't mounting bindings secure it to the board at the middle and allow the free ends bonded with d-sided tape towards the tip and tail to act as a stiffener/energy return system much like a leaf spring when the board decambers in a turn? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 IIRC in '08 JG told me the main performance enhancement is torsional stiffness. I plan to measure camber, flex, and torsional flex at the start, while the wing is off, and again once it's re-installed. To measure flex I'll set the tip and tail on a stack of blocks and stand in the middle (after weighing myself). Torsional stiffness will be measured with the board locked at the tip perpendicular to my work bench. With a torque wrench I can apply a repeatable amount of torque to the tail and measure the deflection with a tri square. The more I think about this the more I want to get started, but spring chores are now taking priority. It will be VERY interesting to see how much the wing actually does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 IIRC in '08 JG told me the main performance enhancement is torsional stiffness. I plan to measure camber, flex, and torsional flex at the start, while the wing is off, and again once it's re-installed. To measure flex I'll set the tip and tail on a stack of blocks and stand in the middle (after weighing myself).Torsional stiffness will be measured with the board locked at the tip perpendicular to my work bench. With a torque wrench I can apply a repeatable amount of torque to the tail and measure the deflection with a tri square. The more I think about this the more I want to get started, but spring chores are now taking priority. It will be VERY interesting to see how much the wing actually does. Just try and twist the wing when it is off completely... it's pretty amazing considering how little material is there, just be careful not to overdo it and split it at the x junction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted June 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Thank's John. Yet another thing to look at while it's apart. What do you think of the sliding bond thing BlueB brought up? It is mounted with double sided tape. Is it a part of the top chord of the beam, or just an add on that's doing it's own thing on top of the board (think conshock)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I was never fond of snow sticks as the point on contact is so small as opposed to a bonded sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I was never fond of snow sticks as the point on contact is so small as opposed to a bonded sheet. John, did you mean conshock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 any of those type of devices as opposed to the entire sheet bonding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I finally got a chance to spend a little time on this. First thing was to build a platform that matches the existing camber. The next step was to take some measurements of camber and flex. The flex measurements are only the "winged" portion of the board. When placed against a wall the board has 1-1/8" of camber. When loaded in the center with my body weight (175) the board decambered 1-1/2". With 20 Ft/lbs of torque applied the board deflected 1-5/16". I've got pics of the whole process if anybody is that interested in the process. The next step will be to remove the wing and take measurements again. What was interesting was watching the wing when I did the decamber test. I could see the spots where the wing was not well bonded. They literally popped up off the topsheet as the board decambered. If any Madd owners want to know how well there topsheet is attached simply prop up the front and rear of the wing with a couple of 2x4s and step in the middle. You WILL see any loose places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Hi Scott. Interesting. Yes, more pictures of your process and results please. If you need a space to post a gallery let me know. Thanks, Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 If you want to add some POP.. camber the board about 1/4 - 1/2 an inch more during the layup... as I remember those reissues were not very snappy. Don't go overboard with this as it places the glue in slight stress all the time- and of course the camber would only be emphasized under teh x- wing- and primarily underfoot there the most carbon resides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I'll be damn. I got the wing off and measured everything again. Camber, torsional flex, and decamber stiffness are identical with or without the wing! I really think the double sided tape was not a secure enough bond to integrate the carbon into the beam. It's just floating on top, doing it's own thing, which is very little to nothing. John, do you know if all of them were installed with double sided tape, or were the earlier ones epoxied on? I would bet that BONDING it to the top with epoxy would make a difference. I just don't know if it would help or hurt the boards performance. The owner is very happy with the way it rides as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Hey Bryan, here's the long version: First I measured the camber in it's free state. (Standing up) I then put the board on it's back and blocked / shimmed it to replicate that camber. I then took a piece of baltic birch plywood, attached eye hooks to the ends and used cables and turnbuckles to tune it to the shape of the camber. The plywood would not match the camber perfectly, but it got me close enough to where I could use the edge to scribe and cut an arc close to the camber. I clamped this piece to the board at a contact point, then scribed an arc 3/8" from the base. Once I had this cut and sanded I used a router with a pattern bit to make a duplicate. I added ends and some cross braces and screwed the plywood down. It matches the board perfectly. The flex testing was done only on the portion of the board where the x wing resides. I didn't want the rest of the board watering down any differences. Turns out there isn't any difference with or without the wing. Here's some pics of the process and the set up for measuring torsional flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Here's the torsion test. You can see that just the weight of the torque wrench is twisting the board a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I'll be damn. I got the wing off and measured everything again. Camber, torsional flex, and decamber stiffness are identical with or without the wing! I really think the double sided tape was not a secure enough bond to integrate the carbon into the beam. It's just floating on top, doing it's own thing, which is very little to nothing. He, he, told you so... However, it's not that it does nothing, it acts as a damping layer. By rigid bonding, you'll get slightly stiffer board... But now the shocker - for ultimate effect, boards need another carbon layer under the core. Also, a single layer under the core is more efficient then a single layer on top. To achieve soft bond again, that won't give in like d/sided tape, you could use a thicker coat of Sikaflex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelc Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 I tried last year to replace the topsheet on an old F2 Roadster that i had lying around. I liked the boards general specs but its torsional stiffness was nothing like what was required. i peeled the topsheet off and had a mate of mine that makes high end marine carbon fabrications laminate with a vacuum bag three layers of bi-axial carbon along with some unis to augment the torsional stiffness. None of the fibres was oriented along the long axis of the board and most were offset by between 30 and 45 degrees. The board looked great and he did a really professional job - he has just finished the rudders and stocks for the new AC45's so clearly his work is good enough for BMW/Oracle! Anyway long story short The board didn't feel very different than before the modifications. Simply adding stiffness to one side of the core had a very minor effect. The added stiffness is simply that of a thin sheet of FRP - actually pretty floppy without the effect of two skins seperated by a core where the stiffness varies exponentially with thickness. The board lasted two runs before I swapped back to the Prior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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