This is frustrating?!?

[carvedog]

However, misrepresenting yourself or your situation is NOT ok.

So we should ban all those 'expert' carvers, who turn out to be bunny hill bound for the most part......

Out the deceivers. Smite them down with all caps shouting and then give them a good keystroke lashing.

Bomber trading has been great for me to purchase and occasionally ( not very good at this part ) purging all the overindulgence.

[kjl]

This.

Stop bitching. If I purchase an object, it becomes mine - at this point I am entitled to do any damn thing I like with it. This includes selling it immediately afterwards for a profit.

You, the original seller, don't get to bitch and moan about what I do with it, because you have ceased to be its owner. You have no say in the matter. You were presumably happy with the price I paid, because that's the price you sold it for.

It shouldn't require a communist to explain the basics of capitalism, surely?

I guess I'd hope that at the small, community level that a lot of people seem to think bomberonline is, cutthroat capitalism at its greediest extreme is not desirable or appropriate.

e.g.

1) Tsunami hits. Convenience store owner can sell bottled water for $100 a bottle. Fair, according to the letter of the law. But he's a dick.

2) I'm on day 1 of a 3 week carving vacation, and my intec heel breaks. Another carver brought extras, says "sure, you can have this heel for $800." Sure, demand is high; I need the heel or the rest of my 3 week vacation is ruined. That guy is an ass, though.

According to the letter of the law and the rules of capitalism, these things are all fair, but do you really want people to behave this way all the time? Screw that.

This sort of thing turns me off so much that when I encounter people like this, I go out of my way to screw them, even at personal cost to myself. When I was in college, 5 friends and I rented a house for the year from a group of students who lived there the previous year. They sold us all the furniture in it for some nominal fee ($200 maybe for tables, chairs, etc.. Maybe more than the actual value of the crappy furniture, but less than the value of having to shop for furniture while taking classes). They said, "we bought it from the last tenants for $200, they bought it from the tenants before them for $200, and you can sell it all to the next tenants next year for $200." The next year, the next tenants came in and tried to lowball us and would not budge. So our choices were to accept $100 or nothing. We unanimously decided to donate everything we could and then destroy everything else. We took a net loss of $100 rather than reward people for being dicks.

I suppose you can sit around and flip gear on bomber for profit if you want, but I would disapprove, because my understanding is that the way the bomber community works is more like a bunch of friends passing gear back and forth for a fair price but without taking advantage of each other, and less like a bunch of profit maximizing individuals. Perhaps my understanding of the culture is wrong, though. On Ebay or craigslist, it's fair game for sure.

[Michelle]

However: I think using the forum for the purpose of flipping equipment for a profit is pretty lame. Selling equipment with known and undisclosed flaws/damage is incredibly $hitty.

This was the point of this thread. lots of great thoughts posted here and I can see both sides. However, it's the deliberate deception that makes me angry and I am hoping that the community will police itself, as the moderators have no intention of doing so. We can only make people aware.

with that said, buyer beware, but people that flip product or intentionally decieve others are LAME.

[kieran]

with that said, buyer beware, but people that flip product or intentionally decieve others are LAME.

maybe amend the guide/rules bit in the 'for sale' sticky to explicitly say that some people are scum. or create a name&shame one.

[tufty]

I guess I'd hope that at the small, community level that a lot of people seem to think bomberonline is, cutthroat capitalism at its greediest extreme is not desirable or appropriate.

Personally, I don't think it's desirable or appropriate anywhere. But then I would say that...

However, if you accept capitalism of any form, then you must surely accept its logical final form. But, like I said, I would say that.

For those that think it's acceptable to gouge people on eBay, but not here, all I can say is that you're a bunch of hypocrites.

I once worked with a guy called Gordon, who had a sideline "doing up" second hand cars and selling them for a profit. "doing up" involved things like "a handful of sawdust in the gearbox to keep the noise down" and "tinfoil in the brake drums to get a couple of hundred miles of braking, rather than paying for new shoes". When challenged on the ethics of this, his reply was:

It's all right, I'd never sell a car to a mate

[Ohob]

This might be slightly off topic, but one thing I've noticed (and could be wrong) about the classifieds is the majority of people don't leave 'feedback' on a purchase.

A small note of 'thanks for the gear' or 'love the board' to 'did you let monkeys package this?!?!?!' might help other buyers decide if they should buy from that seller.

[kjl]

However, if you accept capitalism of any form, then you must surely accept its logical final form. But, like I said, I would say that.

For those that think it's acceptable to gouge people on eBay, but not here, all I can say is that you're a bunch of hypocrites.

Well, I disagree with this... as long as "gouging" refers to simply trying to get as much profit as possible without being unethical like your coworker Gordon or anybody being deceptive in their description of the items. If you are just talking about grabbing a good deal when you see it and flipping it for a quick profit, I have no problem on eBay, for this possible flawed reasoning: On eBay everybody is anonymous and you are competing in a global market. Everybody is attempting to maximize their profits, so I have no problem if you try to maximize your profits as well, as long as you play by the rules (no lying). You're not "screwing" anybody because everybody is playing by the same rules.

In contrast, I believe (correctly or not) that on bomber classifieds, people are not necessarily trying to maximize their profits, just like at my workplace, you'll see stuff like "I have these great boots that I just don't use any more - they're worth $200 but if they find a good home to anybody here I'll let them go for $50; other wise they'll go on eBay next Friday." If you grab those boots and flip them on eBay, you are profiting and preying on the other person's good will and charity.

Maybe an analogy would be lining up for a ski lift.

eBay is like: no ordered line- everybody is cramming as hard as possible to the front to get on as fast as possible. If those are the rules of the game, you should also cram to the front.

I view bomber classifieds like an ordered line, where everybody is waiting their turn. If you ignore the line and get on, you're not breaking and laws (there's no sign that says you have to line up), but you're taking advantage of everybody else's willingness to at nice.

[tufty]

Well, I disagree with this... as long as "gouging" refers to simply trying to get as much profit as possible without being unethical like your coworker Gordon or anybody being deceptive in their description of the items.

Really, what's the difference? All Gordon was really doing was "doing a quick patch job" so the flaws weren't immediately obvious in order to maximise his profit. There you go, nice little runner, hundred notes to you, squire. What's that you say, the brakes died after a hundred miles? Sorry, mate, "sold as seen". Sure, he could have said "needs new brake shoes", but he'd have had to lower his profit margin.

If you've never had an item from ebay where the seller has "forgotten" to mention some little flaw, you've been lucky. Same deal. The rules are 100% the same - if you can get away with it, then do it.

This is why I used the word "hypocrites". If you think there's any difference in dealing with a complete stranger on ebay or with "one of ours" here, that's exactly what you are, and you could probably benefit from rereading "The Water Babies".

If you don't think there's a difference, but you're willing to sell stuff here for less than you could get on ebay, then you're an idiot.

But then, what the fsck do I know? I'm a communist. I give my old stuff away.

[John E]

I don't treat buyers here or on eBay any differently. I value my reputation both places. I prefer to sell on eBay because I don't have to deal with "tire kickers" or bargain with somebody. Also, stuff that sells on eBay sells for a "fair" price as long as the seller is honest. I don't have to decide what something is worth - the market does.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Find something else to get upset about. This shouldn't be it.

[Michelle]

Find something else to get upset about. This shouldn't be it.

I totally disagree. People should be informed.

[Gcarve]

It's all good. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions about this issue. I figure once I've sold something at the price that I'm happy with, whatever happens after that is no longer anything I'm going to concern myself with.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I totally disagree. People should be informed.

Certainly is an option. This seems like allot to do about nothing. I think we all understand what is good behavior. I see very little abuse or poor behavior here at BOL. So, the thread and the strong comments are perhaps a bit much.

Try to keep the occasional "Sale gone wrong" in perspective. It is not cancer or even a broken leg. It is poor behavior on a relatively small scale.

[tahoetrencher]

I'm with Bryan all the way.

Mods: move this thread to off topic,

politics have no place in our SNOWBOARDING forum.

No offense intended Michelle.

[kjl]

Really, what's the difference? All Gordon was really doing was "doing a quick patch job" so the flaws weren't immediately obvious in order to maximise his profit. There you go, nice little runner, hundred notes to you, squire. What's that you say, the brakes died after a hundred miles? Sorry, mate, "sold as seen". Sure, he could have said "needs new brake shoes", but he'd have had to lower his profit margin.

I think maybe because you are a communist, you are making a slippery slope argument against capitalism when you assume that if somebody is trying to maximize their profits, being unethical and deliberately lying is just part of the game. (I could be wrong, though)

There is nothing hypocritical about "attempt to maximize your profits without lying."

Without trying to be all braggy about it, I feel like I am a good example of an ethical capitalist. I have done exactly what you claim a capitalist should not - disclosed that the car I was trying to sell had some funny electrical problem that actually was not manifesting itself while potential buyer was looking at the car, while at the same time asking for more money because the tires were brand new. I have also downloaded a cracked version of (expensive) software (Adobe Illustrator, at ~$500) to test if it would work for me beyond the 30 day trial, and then I actually purchased a legal version when I decided I did like it (which I didn't even use, since the cracked version was just fine) simply because I believe the company should be paid what they ask for if I want to use their product.

When I say I would charge people more for something on ebay than I would on bomber, I don't mean I would charge the "fair" price on bomber and try to screw people on ebay by lying - I mean I would charge the "fair" price on ebay and give it away for a lower price here, just to be nice (just like I would sell something I don't really have a need for to a friend for a nominal fee. e.g. this bike is worth $500 but I don't use it anymore, so really it's worth $0 to me, but I could get $500 on ebay - if I give it to my friend for $200, we both win. No problem. I would find it tacky, and consider my friend no longer my friend if he flipped that bike for $500 for a profit of $300).

But then, what the fsck do I know? I'm a communist. I give my old stuff away.

I'll be honest, I don't really give my old stuff away usually, or gouge my friends, or sell it on ebay. I'm lazy, so most of my old stuff lives in the garage.