Unusual Day at Snow King

[Steve Prokopiw]

two_ravens,you wrote that this was a holdover from your ski days; I do this too.It is just one of the tricks I grab out of my bag for those ultra satisfying toeside trenches I gouge into a steep run.I don't do it because I need to.I do it because I can.You can too:) In a more exagerated way I do this to catch air from the heel edge before dropping into a toeside carve.

If I was going to give you anything to work on it would be to vary the size of your turns more.For example,stretch out some of those heel turns by "stepping on the gas" inside your front boot and extending the front ankle,right before you flex the same ankle,pull the lower leg back underneath you and up as if to ollie and procede to the toeside through the air.:)Fun as heck! There are gaps in my info,but I have a feeling you can easily figure out the rest.You obviously have the skills to do whatever you want with a little practice.

Remember,this is a recreational past time.If there were really rules to how to look or perform it would be called racing;).Kristina and I have some fun video in the can that we're editing now.While I hope that I show good form for the most part,it's full of 'improper' movements that I use to turn my 210 in the space of 1 1/2 cat widths on a black slope.And I enjoyed every turn without a twinge of guilt.:)

[two_ravens]

I've been paying attention:biggthump

Cool!

(PM sent. :))

[Beckmann AG]

All parts are causally connected to all other parts to a greater or lesser extent.

Moving the bindings back 1 cm will affect board response with the existing boot/binding relationship. Lifting the toe under the boot will affect posture, which may then affect board response via rider input options.

Wouldn't raising the toe, of the rear foot, as I opined, also shift the force distribution, toward the heel, of that foot? Are you suggesting, that the front foot, is more valuable, as it were. That it is more effective, in turn initiation, than the input, from the rear foot?

Raising the rear boot toe between boot and binding could affect ROM, leverage, and pressure distribution, all at the same time, and not necessarily for the best, . If you change the internal ramp, you may only affect ROM and pressure distribution, but not leverage. Ideally, you make small changes to get what you want for the smallest compromise. Raising the rear boot toe externally will likely straighten the rear leg, rotating the pelvis/torso anti-clockwise, thus shifting the default weight distribution forward.

For Two_Ravens, I suggested the front foot, as most Deeluxe boots have too much internal ramp, combined with 'floating forward lean' by way of the BTS unit. Raising the front boot toe slightly should rotate her right hip clockwise (as viewed from above) which would move her CM toward the tail of the board without muscular expenditure. Also, with the hips rotated slightly in that direction (more aligned, as I think Rob is suggesting) movement of the CM at slow speeds via 'angulation' is more facile.

Regarding turn initiation: The delay in initiation seen in the clips involves previous turn completion, and the arrangement of body parts that creates stability for the rider in that part of the turn.

Rob,

When you reference 'steer', what do you envision? I realize that you are not suggesting 2Rs ingest more beef, but I hear that term bandied about so much (and so often uselessly) that I would like your version.

Nigel, Re: 'toeside/heelside' hands:

We are 'balance strong' on the long axis of the board, and 'balance weak' on the short axis. Particularly at the turn connection. The hands and arms are useful for 'filling in' , if you will, the gaps in our balance as we move. The catch is, they are most effective when not already dedicated to another task.

As reference points, one could say that the movements of hands and arms to a particular location indicates a need to counterbalance some other body part. So, in the case of 2Rs, if both of her hands are arranged over the toeside edge of the board, while the heelside is engaged, it stands to reason that, perhaps, too much mass is off to the inside of that turn, at that moment.

As she becomes more accurate at moving various body parts from turn to turn, the location of her hands relative to the board should be less variable.

If you take a peek at the clip of Sigi that Rob (and Seraph) referenced:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31798

You may notice that he has one hand to each side of his board. When he makes a mistake with his feet, one hand or the other will move to cover that mistake. Be it up, down, forward, or back. E.G., every so often, his left hand swings away from the center of the turn while on a heelside. One could speculate that perhaps he had moved too much mass too quickly to the inside. Given that he is moving fast enough to have sufficient 'covering' momentum, the hand/arm movement need only be brief to be effective.

From a rider improvement perspective, it would be a mistake to suggest that he quiet his hands, rather, it would be prudent to determine why they moved in the first place.

It is interesting to note that he exhibits more tension through his hands and arms than does 2Rs.

Yes, there might be something here for that "Question for Women" thread, but I doubt any of the women in question have even looked at this thread or the video. I will say that the kind of dense technical analysis going on here is exactly what most women aren't interested in. But most carving women want to improve - so there has to be some other way to foster that improvement...

Your clips provide a fairly good image for evaluation and emulation, and not only because your performance is atypical for your gender. If women (and men) want to ride better, they need to avail themselves of quality information and imagery, and 'push' their on snow application, their understanding of what they are doing, and how they might do it better.

A great deal of snowsports instruction involves somewhat abstract suggestions on how an athlete might improve. Such suggestions are relatively easy to accept by the suggestee, as they are subject to interpretation, and as such, indeterminant. (Get forward, be more aggressive, develop angles, build edge pressure, steer the skis, etc.)

The explanation of direct causal links can be overwhelming, as you either get it, and fix it; or you don't.

Hardbooting itself need not be complicated. Done well, there's not much involved. Removing the myriad obstacles to performance involves a number of overlapping variables, a project by its very nature.

just curious - where would you have started, and would you have ended up in the same place, or focused on other issues?

The extent of knee flexion through the toeside, and the forward aspect of the torso on the same, suggest that the board is slightly front loaded.......

Don's observation on ROM and its effect is entirely relevant, but I tend to look for what would involuntarily impair ROM, rather than on ROM itself. An athlete won't give up useful movement options without good reason, and in your case, achieving stability trumps ROM. Resolve the source of instability, gain ROM.

I struggle to weight the front foot enough on toeside and this may be a binding setup issue but i don't know where to start to fix it. I have six degrees of heel lift on the back and flat on front on 54R/64F.

Very few actually benefit from a flat front mount. Check your email.

[two_ravens]

OK, headed out tomorrow - hoping for groomers! :) We'll see if I can put at least some of this good advice to use. Thanks guys!

In a more exagerated way I do this to catch air from the heel edge before dropping into a toeside carve.

While I hope that I show good form for the most part,it's full of 'improper' movements that I use to turn my 210 in the space of 1 1/2 cat widths on a black slope.And I enjoyed every turn without a twinge of guilt.:)

Steve, love watching you rip crazy airborne turns on those monster boards!! And no twinges of guilt here either for any of the silly things I do...

I have the classic toeside problem of rotating toward the turn and dropping my head and shoulders into the turn on toeside. I struggle to weight the front foot enough on toeside and this may be a binding setup issue but i don't know where to start to fix it. I have six degrees of heel lift on the back and flat on front on 54R/64F. Two Ravens I would love to look as good as you!

Nigelc, the photo below shows what I looked like 15 months ago with 6 deg heel lift in back and flat front with very similar angles (that's how I rode... er... skidded around for 2+ seasons.) There is hope for your riding, I just hope your sense of fashion isn't as tragically misguided as mine!!! :rolleyes:

[Seraph]

Your clips provide a fairly good image for evaluation and emulation, and not only because your performance is atypical for your gender. If women (and men) want to ride better, they need to avail themselves of quality information and imagery, and 'push' their on snow application, their understanding of what they are doing, and how they might do it better.

A great deal of snowsports instruction involves somewhat abstract suggestions on how an athlete might improve. Such suggestions are relatively easy to accept by the suggestee, as they are subject to interpretation, and as such, indeterminant. (Get forward, be more aggressive, develop angles, build edge pressure, steer the skis, etc.)

The explanation of direct causal links can be overwhelming, as you either get it, and fix it; or you don't.

Hardbooting itself need not be complicated. Done well, there's not much involved. Removing the myriad obstacles to performance involves a number of overlapping variables, a project by its very nature.

Ok, I've been following this thread with great interest and Beckmann's comments make me feel like I need to jump into the fray because it has me thinking about alot of what I have been trying to work on this season. So Beckmann, if I understand correctly, part of what you are saying is that carving involves a few basic principles, and if you apply those principles, things go right. If you apply those principles, and add extraneous stuff to the mix, things might go right (or not), but in the end you have still added extra unnecessary movements. So if you put yourself into a comfortable efficient position on your board by setting up your position correctly, then its about applying those basic principles, nothing more nothing less. So the goal should be to strip it down to the basic elements. Or did I complete misread this? And if this is a threadjack, and you feel a reply is worthy, but not here, feel free to email me your response instead.

[nigelc]

There is hope for your riding, I just hope your sense of fashion isn't as tragically misguided as mine!!! :

Thanks 2ravens. Yes that toeside looks tragically similar to mine. Fortunately the pink is restricted to my eyes......

[two_ravens]

And if this is a threadjack, and you feel a reply is worthy, but not here, feel free to email me your response instead.

For my part, I am totally open to any technique discussion/questions that come up on this thread. And I think it's very very cool that Beckmann, Rob Stevens and other top riders/instructors take the time and interest to post up so much info. Thanks!!!

[Beckmann AG]

So Beckmann, if I understand correctly, part of what you are saying is that carving involves a few basic principles, and if you apply those principles, things go right. If you apply those principles, and add extraneous stuff to the mix, things might go right (or not), but in the end you have still added extra unnecessary movements. So if you put yourself into a comfortable efficient position on your board by setting up your position correctly, then its about applying those basic principles, nothing more nothing less. So the goal should be to strip it down to the basic elements. Or did I complete misread this?

"In anything at all, perfection is finally achieved, not when there is anything more you can add, but when there is nothing more you can take away; when a body has been stripped to its nakedness..."

-Antoine de St Exupery, from Wind, Sand, Stars

The author was, of course, referring to aircraft design, but as he indicates, (and you correctly intuit), this philosophy can be applied to quite a few things, snowsport among them.

Quality skiing and snowboarding are essentially the same thing. At the core, all one is doing is maintaining a state of fluid equilibrium on a slippery/variable surface by way of rearranging the base of support relative to the center of mass.

Ideally, we should be able to engage/disengage the supporting edge(s) by way of inversion/eversion of our feet, facilitated by free mobility at the femoral heads. Flexion/extension of the legs are a means of modulating the bend of the board, and as a suspension system to both isolate the CM from the surface, and to allow the board to follow that surface.

'Balance' so to speak, should be referenced off the momentum of the CM, and the path on which it may travel, as opposed to the surface on which we stand.

As novices, our energy state is high, while the energy state of the board remains low. As we become more effective, that relationship inverts.

Looking exceptionally fluid and relaxed while in motion is fairly simple when you are 'doing' almost nothing.

Obviously, there may be more involved depending on circumstance, but those are the 'primary colors'.

Most everything else you 'see' is more or less a workaround for blocked joint articulation.

Or affect, conveying a sense of identity.

For an otherwise 'healthy' athlete, impaired ROM is almost universally derived from equipment configuration. (Though another possibility is trying to do things that you think you are supposed to do, but really shouldn't.)

For optimal outcome, the board and rider should have coincident states of 'zero output', which is to say, that when the rider is fully relaxed, the board should be 'relaxed' as well. Ergo, all effort on the part of the rider is then pro-active, rather than re-active (compensatory).

Tune out all the 'static', and you are left with either music; or silence.