Unusual Day at Snow King

[two_ravens]

It wouldn't hurt, though. He's kinda qualified... ;)

Beckmann too.

Both Rob and Beckmann are free to offer any analysis that they care to post up - but Rob has clearly shown no interest, and I'm not sure why Beckmann is on this thread trying to stir the pot?

BTW, I certainly have my own list of things to work on after watching these vids, and have gotten lots of useful feedback from people whose input I seek out....

[Beckmann AG]

Both Rob and Beckmann are free to offer any analysis that they care to post up - but Rob has clearly shown no interest, and I'm not sure why Beckmann is on this thread trying to stir the pot?

Hardly pot stirring. Rob made a valid observation with which, for the most part, I agree. That observation cut as well as complimented, and it could have served as a start point for a positive discussion.

If I understand correctly, you are relatively new to the sport, working with minimal outside influence. Clearly, you are doing more than a few things right. I am assuming, perhaps in error, that Rob is seeing things in your riding, the identification of which may benefit other riders.

My interest is in what could be called 'effective use'.

Sorry for any misunderstanding(s).

[two_ravens]

Beckmann, very good. I'm all for positive discussion and effective use. :)

[BlueB]

Hardly pot stirring. Rob made a valid observation with which, for the most part, I agree. That observation cut as well as complimented, and it could have served as a start point for a positive discussion.

That's how I understood the original comments, too.

[kieran]

i'd like to know where the little tail-flick into a toeside carve comes from.

[two_ravens]

Kieran, not sure exactly what you are referring to...? Do you have a point in one of the vids that is an especially good example?

I do have a long standing habit of throwing a little skid/check in at the start of each turn - usually worse on heel sides, and am working hard to eliminate that. (That comes from learning on steep slopes that scare me. :o)

Also, at times, I stomp on the board a little harder during transitions and throw in a quick over rotation just before committing my body to the new turn - this is a holdover from my skiing days, a technique called split rotation rebound. Puts a little more energy/subtle rebound into the transition, not sure it's really so great for carving, just makes transitioning to the downhill edge feel safer. But again, I feel I do that more going into heel sides, and I'm not seeing it so much in these videos.

Going into toe sides I feel I often hesitate, then lead with my shoulders instead of initiating the turn from the board. Maybe it's just my board trying to catch up??? :rolleyes:

[Don]

My interest is in what could be called 'effective use'.

Sorry for any misunderstanding(s).

That is a hint. OK, I'll bite.

First impression, Awesome. When I was a beginner I never looked that good, and still don't.

What I noticed is consistent blockage of the rider's suspension. Seems to be centered on the lower two thirds of her natural range. Toe lift in rear is insufficient by about two degrees is my guess. Fix the setup and the upper body can then become a little more upright without compromising rider's feeling of secure balance.

Beckmann will set me right sure enough. He always does.

Second impression, same as the first.

[BlueB]

i'd like to know where the little tail-flick into a toeside carve comes from.

I've just watched the slo-mo again. You are dreaming.

Btw, abillity to change the board's direction by few degrees in a small airborne transition, is an excellent skill to have.

Raven, superb self-analysis.

[two_ravens]

i'd like to know where the little tail-flick into a toeside carve comes from.

OK, I just watched the first video again - at about 00:42 I do a little tail-flick (of the board - that is what you meant, right? ) That comes from booting out on the previous heel side and I don't have enough speed to actually carve into my next toe side turn.

And did a little of that split rotation thing I was talking about at 00:9 & 00:17 of the first video...

What I noticed is consistent blockage of the rider's suspension. Seems to be centered on the lower two thirds of her natural range. Toe lift in rear is insufficient by about two degrees is my guess. Fix the setup and the upper body can then become a little more upright without compromising rider's feeling of secure balance.

Beckmann will set me right sure enough. He always does.

Don, thank you for kind words. So... toe lift in rear? Tell me more. I was trying different bindings in these videos (having been on TD2's exclusively for my first 3.5 seasons.) I am on Snowpros with 3 degree toe lift front, 3 deg heel lift in back, gas pedal style. This set up seems to work well for me on the TD2s, though I end up overall about 1/2" higher off the deck with the TD2s... (I found the Snowpros difficult BTW, because I couldn't seem to get toe and heel distance from the board adjusted to work well - too far from toe side, too close to heel. Able to compensate somewhat in soft snow - 2 days later on near ice, they were pretty much unridable.)

And FYI - I am riding with a bit of a pinched nerve in my back. Healing, but still keeps me pretty stiff in the low back....

[kieran]

OK, I just watched the first video again - at about 00:42 I do a little tail-flick (of the board - that is what you meant, right? )

yes, also in the second video at about 0:00:22.

[two_ravens]

yes, also in the second video at about 0:00:22.

Ah yes, there it is. That's just my skid/check habit showing up. If you look at photos of tracks from SkES you will see that little skid at the start of almost every turn. Been trying hard to purge that habit for a few weeks now.... The Stubette is forgiving of skids, but the VSR punishes such behavior.

[Don]

Don, thank you for kind words. So... toe lift in rear? Tell me more. ....

Well, I expressed that rather badly. If my observation of travel restriction in the upper range, i.e. less than max extension is used, it *may* be related to the plane of the sole of the rear foot. Straightening the knee joint increases the distance from the sole to the hip joint. With a flat stance, zero toe or heel lift, that will move the hip joint higher. As the heel is moved higher and the toe is lowered to say 3 degree heel lift/toe drop the same knee extension will force that hip joint more toward the nose of the board and/or cause some pelvic rotation around the vertical axis of the body, goofy - clockwise, regular - anti clock. This may lead directly to greater horizontal and less vertical displacement of the center of mass or indirectly by movement of upper body parts as a consequence of the pelvic rotation/displacement.

All parts are causally connected to all other parts to a greater or lesser extent. I think some move is causing your center to mass to behave badly enough when you make it that it is causing, and training, you to *not* make it.

Still waiting for Beckmann explain my erroneous deduction.

[two_ravens]

Raven, superb self-analysis.

Ah, well - I knew my transitions to toe side were weaker but I had a little help from Mike T sorting out what was/is going on. I don't ride entirely in a vacuum.

If my observation of travel restriction in the upper range, i.e. less than max extension is used, it *may* be related to the plane of the sole of the rear foot. Straightening the knee joint increases the distance from the sole to the hip joint. With a flat stance, zero toe or heel lift, that will move the hip joint higher. As the heel is moved higher and the toe is lowered to say 3 degree heel lift/toe drop the same knee extension will force that hip joint more toward the nose of the board and/or cause some pelvic rotation around the vertical axis of the body, goofy - clockwise, regular - anti clock. This may lead directly to greater horizontal and less vertical displacement of the center of mass or indirectly by movement of upper body parts as a consequence of the pelvic rotation/displacement.

All parts are causally connected to all other parts to a greater or lesser extent. I think some move is causing your center to mass to behave badly enough when you make it that it is causing, and training, you to *not* make it.

OK Don, thanks for your reply - still trying to wrap my brain cell around it.... I agree that rear heel lift will tend to move my CM (Center of Mass) forward. I also have 3 deg toe lift in front, which seems to me would have an equal & opposite effect, restoring movement to an upward direction - maybe I'm wrong on that? Maybe it just restricts movement an additional 3 degrees...?

The other factor that seems would tend to send the CM forward is increased forward lean of the rear boot, which seems to me does in fact restrict upward travel of the pelvis by keeping the rear ankle flexed and thus the lower leg aimed forward...

Guess my real question in all of this is: Why & where do you feel I need to be more upright? Upper body? Legs? Just at some certain point in my turns or all the time...? I do tend to ride more upright on lower angle terrain (though I admit I feel incompetent - always chalked that up to lack of practice.) The camera makes this run look a bit flatter than it feels in real life - it is a Snow King version of a blue run, which is to say it's a winch cat groomer (in the slo-mo video that is - first vid is a gentler slope.) I have just learned to stay somewhat compressed riding the King, as things seem to go right more often that way & hurts a lot less when things go wrong. So - you are saying that I should be able to ride this terrain happily in a more upright position? Trying to understand exactly what you would want to see change in my riding.....

[Beckmann AG]

Still waiting for Beckmann explain my erroneous deduction.

Well, your deduction (or at least parts thereof) may not actually be erroneous. Although a few commas might help...

I would probably start elsewhere, but since you want to go with ROM...

If there was a bit more 'give' from the hips down, the finish of the heelside would be smoother, and the toeside would be less delayed. As stands , at that point, the hips are a bit to the inside, while the shoulders are counterbalancing the hips. As the board 'escapes', the hips rise, while the shoulders pitch/rotate slightly into the toeside turn. If the knees, ankles and hips were to 'soften' slightly just ahead of that point, the torso may remain more upright, which, while certainly better in the long term for spinal health, would also set 2Rs up for a smoother heelside/toeside transition due to more consistent weighting of the board through that phase, (and the rotationally derived 'flick' pointed out by Kieran might disappear).

In addition, with the shoulders first into the toeside, eventually, the upper body mass and the path of the board begin to 'collide' near the end of the toeside turn, leading to a brief 'stall' as the board tries to get out from under the rider.

Energy that could be channeled into the next turn is diminished as the CM is lifted, and there ensues a slight lag before the board 'powers up' on the heelside edge as the CM falls. As the board is not particularly active for the first part of the turn, the CM is momentarily not supported and drops a bit too quickly to the inside.

Or, in other words, the board is tilted, but only slightly loaded.

The binding bias issue may play a part here, as the board would tip too easily to the heelside, while requiring greater effort to the toeside. Definitely more noticeable on hard snow, as 2Rs mentioned.

My guess, Don, would be less towards rear foot involvement, and more towards binding setback and front foot toe lift. Of course, implementing your suggestions would no doubt yield some interesting and perhaps informative results.

The extent of knee flexion through the toeside, and the forward aspect of the torso on the same, suggest that the board is slightly front loaded, and 2Rs is compensating a bit by moving mass tailward as a means of stabilizing. On at least two toesides, there is a slight tailwash effect right near the end of the turn. This 'wash' is also present on a few heelsides.

A common compensator for forward weighting on a heelside is to move the hips further inside to offset skid through increased edge angle. (Which refers back to the second sentence of my first paragraph).

This 'sitting back' (for lack of a better term) is similar to what you see in alpine skiers who are over-ramped.

Drawback, among other things, is that suspension travel has been compromised in favor of fore/aft stability. Again referring back to paragraph 1; with a partially collapsed suspension, the 'softening' option may be off the table.

Bear in mind any adjustments to either boot/binding configuration or 'technique' should be minor. Probably 1 cm setback, and maybe 1 or 2 degrees of additional toe lift. (If the bindings are bail closure, you can stack up a few business cards between the front toe pad and boot). That, and try to make sure you always have a 'toeside hand', and a 'heelside hand'. This should make the transitions less tippy, and will provide a reference point for resolving rotational issues.

The admirable thing is that 2Rs is not all wadded up like a discarded candy wrapper, nor is she trying to flog the board into submission. Rather, it appears she is partial to finesse; feeling her way towards a better path.

A cool breeze, if you will, on an otherwise humid day.

@Two_Ravens; as your initial post was more about the joy of riding, and less about the technical aspects thereof, I will readily delete this post if you wish.

[two_ravens]

@Two_Ravens; as your initial post was more about the joy of riding, and less about the technical aspects thereof, I will readily delete this post if you wish.

Beckmann, thanks for the input - please do not delete. As I am an extremely visual/kinesthetic learner, it will take awhile for me to translate this into something I can use on the hill.... Something to do while the lifts aren't spinning. :)

[Beckmann AG]

As I am an extremely visual/kinesthetic learner...

You don't say....

That being the case, have you ever tried to link a turn on a flat pitch with your eyes closed?

[Don]

Did you hear the one about the nearsighted house painter. The one who was climbing up with this great big bucket of purple paint, and as he neared the top of the scaffolding at the Sistine Chapel,

. . .

So, I think I see it. Lifting the toe of the front foot shifts the distribution of the downward force, so that more is directed toward the heel, less toward the toe. Business cards? Is that leverage comparable to, say, a 1 cm displacement rearward of the front binding? It certainly is easier to do, for a test. Is adjusting one the equivalent to adjusting the other, or will each adjustment effect other parts, in different manners?

Wouldn't raising the toe, of the rear foot, as I opined, also shift the force distribution, toward the heel, of that foot? Are you suggesting, that the front foot, is more valuable, as it were. That it is more effective, in turn initiation, than the input, from the rear foot? That's foot bigotry, no less.

Hmmmm, your changes, I think, could shift the CM rearward, by a compressive force, whereas, any rearward CM shift, by my change, would be the result, of a tension force, and that tension, is applied, at the bottom, of a jointed leg, which is part, of, an, inverted, 'V',,

I need to go uncross my eyes now, and rest.

[Rob Stevens]

Also, at times, I stomp on the board a little harder during transitions and throw in a quick over rotation just before committing my body to the new turn - this is a holdover from my skiing days, a technique called split rotation rebound. Puts a little more energy/subtle rebound into the transition, not sure it's really so great for carving, just makes transitioning to the downhill edge feel safer. But again, I feel I do that more going into heel sides, and I'm not seeing it so much in these videos.

Going into toe sides I feel I often hesitate, then lead with my shoulders instead of initiating the turn from the board. Maybe it's just my board trying to catch up??? :rolleyes:

I remember looking at Snow King from town. The run you're on is pretty steep.

Eurocarve zone for sure.

What you said above is really the only thing I'd say, now that you're asking...

That over-rotation to start a turn is what happens sometimes when you're trying to make the board go flat, centered under you and ready to switch.

You use a rearward turn of your torso to start a winding up of the hips which, when unloaded, brings the board up under you.

It works pretty good, but can slow things down in one important way: Because you've turned your shoulders away and now they have to come back forward, you lose that time above the fall line, where you need to be switched to the new edge and low. You've moved away from your direction of travel just for a second, which twists you up and won't let you get low.

Because this kind of turn starts low, and you need to be pretty much all the way extended before the fall line, you can't take that long after the edge change to get re-alingned. You'll start the laying out move too late, build up too much pressure after the fall line and chatter out or stall from so much late edgeing and not enough speed.

You need to be alingned at the switch. It's way easier to get low and you look much better doing it.

So now you've given up your counter-rotation, but it leaves you having to get the board where you want it, under yourself, in a different way. you'll need to steer in your lower joints to finish the pushing phase, switching to pulling to bring it up, under you.

You can sort of simulate this move by suspending yourself on your hands, with your legs hanging below you. You're trying to imagine the moment of switch, where you feel your hips, knees, ankles, heels and toes steering on the arc... One moment you're feet are out in front, or behind you, then you've pulled them underneath your core. Try doing it for a minute or so... It's a burner.

If you can make the board go flat to the traverse between turns this way, back to a centred stance and balance, you won't have to do it with an big, clunky upper-body move.

The other part of it is having some arm discipline at the switch to keep yourself in line from shoulders through hips to your feet. Your trailing hand, on the heel going to the toe, or lead hand on the other side, can fly to the outside like it is now, but as you steer the board up under yourself, advance the outside arm and hand forward.

If you're countering, that hand will go back right then and you'll feel it have to come forward again. Time-waster.

There's some good video of Sigi Grabner on here from "Marco", I think, showing him free carving. He's not laying out on the snow, or super low at the switch, but just riding mid-flexed and you can see the idea in what I'm trying to say

Watch his outside hand in every turn... It floats out there, then flicks forward, never back. You can also see him build pressure in the board and then describe the completed turn with his legs, steering his lower joints, subtley ahead of the board, allowing it to come up, under himself.

In that moment, he's flying across the hill, inclined to the slope, but if you look at him, he's straight running just like he would if he was pointed straight down... Totally flat-based, centered and neutral.

He can do anything from here, including lay out on the snow, if he wanted to.

You can also see it done right in your own video, usually further into the run when the board is driving itself more and you're letting it happen.

If you get this consistent, it will make the big radius turns you're doing even smoother and allow you to get into moving faster from one turn to the other, in tighter laid turns, because you're not stalling in a countered position between them.

[Rob Stevens]

... Is from Surf Quebec and it's called "Racer carving but not in a race".

[nigelc]

" That, and try to make sure you always have a 'toeside hand', and a 'heelside hand'. This should make the transitions less tippy, and will provide a reference point for resolving rotational issues"

Very informative, if difficult to understand. Can you elucidate on the above a little further please?

cheers

Nigel

[two_ravens]

Hey guys, thanks for all the input! Don, special thanks, for, all,, the,,, commas. I needed a chance to catch my breath! ;)

Rob, thanks for the video reference, but I haven't been able to find it...? Is it on youtube, or someplace else?

That said, with only 9 days of riding left in my season, if any of you have other video suggestions, please post links! I can watch a video a few times, and my riding will be different the next day. Technical descriptions... well... take a lot of time for me to digest. I'll print 'em out and study over the summer. I'm trying to pick out one or two things to concentrate on though for now.

So; 'what do you see that is worth replicating/emulating' and 'where would you go from here'?

Particularly relevant to this thread:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34092

Yes, there might be something here for that "Question for Women" thread, but I doubt any of the women in question have even looked at this thread or the video. I will say that the kind of dense technical analysis going on here is exactly what most women aren't interested in. But most carving women want to improve - so there has to be some other way to foster that improvement...

You don't say....

That being the case, have you ever tried to link a turn on a flat pitch with your eyes closed?

Well, no. I thought my new trick of linking turns with my eyes open was pretty good! Actually did try that a bit yesterday - last day of the season at the King, on 4" of heavy fresh over ungroomed frozen chunks, just little swishy turns - good entertainment! Will try to find something where I can try to carve turns when I go to Targhee Wed.

I would probably start elsewhere, but since you want to go with ROM...

Beckmann, just curious - where would you have started, and would you have ended up in the same place, or focused on other issues?

And I second what nigelc said - some clarification on the 'heelside' 'toeside' hand thing might help.

Cheers and thanks! :)

[Seraph]

Rob, thanks for the video reference, but I haven't been able to find it...? Is it on youtube, or someplace else?

http://bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=323344

[two_ravens]

Sweet! Thanks Seraph! (OK, I didn't think to search BOL....)

[Daneille]

Yes, there might be something here for that "Question for Women" thread, but I doubt any of the women in question have even looked at this thread or the video. I will say that the kind of dense technical analysis going on here is exactly what most women aren't interested in. But most carving women want to improve - so there has to be some other way to foster that improvement...

I've been paying attention:biggthump

[nigelc]

Ok what I think you are saying is:

there should be no rotation/counter rotation during the initiation. The upper body should stay relaxed and upright through the turn and roughly facing the bindings. The turn should be effected through flexion of the ankles knees and hips (in that order) and weight shift with little or no involvement of shoulders etc. I Think you are proposing to unweight the board by a down unweighting/crossthrough/retraction and when on the new edge to extend until the fall line, then to retract through to the new edge change. Is that right? Just trying to clarify

While I have a passable heelside, I have the classic toeside problem of rotating toward the turn and dropping my head and shoulders into the turn on toeside. I struggle to weight the front foot enough on toeside and this may be a binding setup issue but i don't know where to start to fix it. I have six degrees of heel lift on the back and flat on front on 54R/64F. Two Ravens I would love to look as good as you!

By the way it is great to have the input of you guys - beckmann, rob stevens, blue B et al - I really appreciate your comments