Hard boots with regular width board

[mikeyboy123]

For ATV equivalent in EU, look for Nidecker Proto, or F2 ElDiablo/Vantage. The last one, Vantage, is titanal but I didn't ride that version. The other 2 are very capable all-round boards. Proto was my favorite bump board last year.

Yeah,

I've had a look at the Proto and I think I want something with a larger sidecut radius. I have come accross the F2 boards you mention and am particularly intrigued by the Vantage as it is titanal. They both come up new on ebay and other websites every now and again. Again, I feel I want a board with a larger sidecut radius. My Salomon burner has an SR of about 9m which is roughly the same as the proto and the two F2s and I often find myself wishing I had a board with a larger SR.

One of my favourite things is to hold a really long carved turn at high speed rather than lots of tight turns, so think a larger SR is needed.

Thanks,

Mike.

[mikeyboy123]

if you cannot setup your board as on Jack's foto:

with angles 45 and over - I mean that you cannot set it up without major underhang of toe and heel - you will have severe underleverage to make edging on harder slopes - which gave inability to stay in central balanced stance and possible shin-bang because you will need to leverage edges through boot upper-calfs. so: board width, angles, boot size - it is all related, i.e. board width _determines_ angles for specific boot size. so simply said - you cannot stay in perfect stance with 25mondo hardboot on 25cm board. it's no problem in deeps, but on harder slopes and in moguls it is a very bad idea. want to ride everywhere in hardboots? just use suitable board, with waist 22 and narrower...

Hi Terekhov,

I realise wht you are saying, and you are probably right that with a 28.5 mondo boot I may have to ride with angles less than 45 degrees to achieve correct heel/toe/edge alignment. I realise that 45 degress seems to be the magic number for hard boots, and that riding at lower angles seems to be frowned upon, and that was really one of the reasons for my questions. If HBs at less than 45 degrees aint gonna work then I'll explore other options, but if it can work then I am keen to explore it. From the other responses, quite a few are riding with HBs at less than 45, so what are the pitfalls of doing this and is it really not worth bothering with?

Thanks,

Mike.

[b0ardski]

Terekhov has valid points about shinbang and underhang; but I'm not talking 3-4 cms which would change the leverage a good bit, +/- 1 cm will give you clearance & a couple more degrees of angle and the extra leverage wont be an issue.

As for shinbang, inward cant with a softer flexing bootshell/liner will get you in the comfort zone for lower angles (sub 45*) and surfy/carvey fun:biggthump

It work's for me

[Neil Gendzwill]

One of my favourite things is to hold a really long carved turn at high speed rather than lots of tight turns, so think a larger SR is needed.

If that's the case you might be better off looking at a more conventional hard boot stance. My advice would be to get one of the 23 cm waist boards and run at around 45-50 degrees - that's an extremely versatile setup. The only downside is that switch stuff is not as easy but if that's not a concern there's really no need to go much shallower IMO.

[BlueB]

I've had a look at the Proto and I think I want something with a larger sidecut radius. I have come accross the F2 boards you mention and am particularly intrigued by the Vantage as it is titanal. They both come up new on ebay and other websites every now and again. Again, I feel I want a board with a larger sidecut radius. My Salomon burner has an SR of about 9m which is roughly the same as the proto and the two F2s and I often find myself wishing I had a board with a larger SR.

One of my favourite things is to hold a really long carved turn at high speed rather than lots of tight turns, so think a larger SR is needed.

Well, ATV 167 is also 9.5m SCR, that's why I suggested the other 2... Hi speed, longer turn, you'll have to look into the Steepwater Steep, Tankers, or one of the new school BX boards... Why are you buying a wide board for this business, anyways? You'd be better of with a propper all-mountain carving board, or just ful-on carver. You already have the Salomon for the softer snow.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think one of the new Coiler Titanal AMs with 12 m sidecut would fit the bill, he could get that in a 23 cm waist.

[terekhov]

From the other responses, quite a few are riding with HBs at less than 45, so what are the pitfalls of doing this and is it really not worth bothering with?

imho modern hardboots works best at 50+ angles, and definitely sucks at 40-: you get too much of too exact lateral leverage over the board and it is easy to overpower it on every occasion.

and definitely it a bad idea to use hardboots on too wide boards for looong mellow carves

in my mind using hardboots with softboot-waisted boards might be considered as fallback option - when you need to try hardboots for the first time, or cannot bring softboot setup (boots + bindings) with you to the mountain but can bring some freeride deck and at last get some powder, etc. it is definitely sucks as a go-to setup to build.

last year when I ride all over the Alps for the 3 weeks in UBER-different conditions - I rode Head Stratos Pro + F2 Race Ti + Donek Axis 182 (old, softened, with decambered nose due to age, and 87deg polished edges:). this setup almost shines in anything but ice, including 1m powder in avalanche-prone drop-coloirs. moral: if you go with hardboots - go with hardboot-specified boards too. or stay in softies - it's fun too!!

and break all rules, sometimes, too ))) after some overnite lone backcountry, but in all other cases - pogo secret spot definitely SHOULD NOT be driven by hardboots..

[b0ardski]

Hard is a relative thing, as to "stay in softies", my 124s w/thermoflex liners are softies.

They are way to soft both laterally & for/aft to drive my 185 x 18w race board at 60* angles, for that I need my 4 buckle Blax (like head stratos) with race skiboot liners.

Between 2 pairs of boots and 2 sets of liners I can get 4 different flex patterns from my boots to match the board/conditions, all with the same unbreakable stepin binding system. It doesn't suck!

I try "modern" soft setups every few years, and the fuss factor and inevitable pain from foot crushing straps:barf: sends me running back to the board/edge control, all day comfort, and ease of use I'm used to from over 20 yrs in plastic shells & plates:biggthump. Besides, duckfoot makes my knees & hips hurt.

If I could afford a new, truly all mountain, switch capable, sub 45* HB set-up; Deeluxe 225s (tight fit m26.5) w/BTS & thermoflex, fintec heels, sidewinder stepins 35*r/45*f, 3* cants mounted to a Coiler AM or donek axxes at 178 x 23, 11-14 vsr, with near twin, early rise tips, and extra carbon layed up in an asymmetric butterfly shape.

At 6' 190#, this'll be a tad short for high speed GS or wide open powder but an easy compromise for use in tight trees & bumps. If I just had an extra $2.5k laying around.:(

[dingbat]

I tried running my Catek OS1's on my Salomon FRS last Spring. It was hard ice in the mornings and scraped off throughout the day. This setup totally failed on the hard stuff. The disks of the Cateks were too far from the edge of the board to pressure it properly. I think it might work with the appropriate riser underneath or another type of binding that had a wider footprint. My Stratos Pros didn't feel ideal at those angles (about 40ish) but didn't seem to be a problem.

[mikeyboy123]

Okay, thanks for all your replies.

It's certainly given me alot to think about and I am coming round to the idea that I really ned to go for something with a waist width of 23cm max. It is just that I had seen that some people were running flatter angles on things like tankers and Eliminators, and that intrigued me.

I'll have a good go on a carving board when I'm in Kitzbuhel in March and then decide if I'm gonna take the plunge into a proper HB set up.

Thanks again,

Mike.

[b0ardski]

I tried running my Catek OS1's on my Salomon FRS last Spring. It was hard ice in the mornings and scraped off throughout the day. This setup totally failed on the hard stuff. The disks of the Cateks were too far from the edge of the board to pressure it properly. I think it might work with the appropriate riser underneath or another type of binding that had a wider footprint. My Stratos Pros didn't feel ideal at those angles (about 40ish) but didn't seem to be a problem.

I guess the long footprint of my stiff plated Nitros on wide boards (pictured on page 1) get more pressure out to the edges. Combined with soft flexing hardboots they work great in everything from deep pow to choppy groom to steep ice.

[b0ardski]

Mikey, try to demo a BX board with hardboots. The 168 Madd BX was a great all mt carver at 24 waist allowing lower angles versatility and EC capability. It's the board In my signature pic.

[dingbat]

I guess the long footprint of my stiff plated Nitros on wide boards (pictured on page 1) get more pressure out to the edges. Combined with soft flexing hardboots they work great in everything from deep pow to choppy groom to steep ice.

Yeah, I definately had the feeling that if I had something inbetween the discs and the deck to transfer pressure outward, or an f2 on there it would have been real good. But as it was....

[leeho730]

Board: swoard dual 158 with 24.2cm waist width and 9.35m SCR

Boots: T700 25cm

Binding: TD3SW with 45/40, no cant/lift

Usage: all mountain

[terekhov]

Hard is a relative thing, as to "stay in softies", my 124s w/thermoflex liners are softies.

soft low hardboots is no resemblance of modern softies at all, imho. and modern stiff softies (stiff softboots i.e. northwave reset or burton driverx + stiff bindings i.e. nidecker900 or flow c-xfr (sp?)) is comparable by overall stiffness to my softened-modified head stratos pro + f2 race ti w/5.5 bails

please don't fool yourself and DO compare it yourself

124 w/tflex + some flexy plates (and I think it is a bad idea to use 124 with td/cateks due to possible lateral collapse of the rather soft shell on frontal impact..) is comparable to modern low-grade softboots PLUS low-grade bindings

all in all, topic starter seems like took my side in taking narrower and hardboot-specified board to ride in hardies. BTW - I love rossignol undertaker 198 with hardboots! 23cm waist, 13.5m radius swallowtail is definitely easier on legs with hardboots. not so with f2 elim.ltd - it is a curse to ride it with hardies on anything but softer grooms

[Neil Gendzwill]

124 w/tflex + some flexy plates (and I think it is a bad idea to use 124 with td/cateks due to possible lateral collapse of the rather soft shell on frontal impact..) is comparable to modern low-grade softboots PLUS low-grade bindings

I think that's overstating the case by quite a bit.

[b0ardski]

soft low hardboots is no resemblance of modern softies at all, imho. and modern stiff softies (stiff softboots i.e. northwave reset or burton driverx + stiff bindings i.e. nidecker900 or flow c-xfr (sp?)) is comparable by overall stiffness to my softened-modified head stratos pro + f2 race ti w/5.5 bails

please don't fool yourself and DO compare it yourself

124 w/tflex + some flexy plates (and I think it is a bad idea to use 124 with td/cateks due to possible lateral collapse of the rather soft shell on frontal impact..) is comparable to modern low-grade softboots PLUS low-grade bindings

I may be a Foole but many 100's of days in hardshells in all snow conditions speaks from experience.

all due respect:biggthump

my soft 124 "hardboots" with 3 buckles+power strap aren't any lower than my 4buckle blax(heads) and using diferrent liners can drastically change the flex. plastic shells will always hold up to "lateral collapse" better than softies though they may break in the prosess.

comparison

I did a direct comparison last season on a 173 x 25 Idendity all mountain soft(compared to alpine) board between new Flows with Burton drivers, new BurtonSI with Mojos at 25*/38* vrs old Nitro stepins with Raichle 124s w/soft flex liners at 28*/40*.

The conditions were rough groom with 1ft of fresh med. dense snow off piste.

I agree that the over all stiffness of these setups was very similar but thats were it ends.

The flow+driver is a great setup as far as laceups go with lots of soft, even lateral flex and starts soft but bottoms out forward flex. (Conventional straps lessen the bottoming out but soften the overall feel IMO). The burton stepins had bit firmer lateral flex (which I like)and softer but more even forward flex.

The highback response on the flows was softer than the burtonSI which was equal to the Raichles w/out BTS. Love the ease of use of the flows but hate the bulk.

On groomer the ride was similar but less responsive with the drivers + flow than the soft HB+ plates.

In the uneven early season pow, I found it much easier to stuff the nose and go over the handle bars with the ecxess lateral flex of the drivers where the stiffer plate setup forced the board through and kept it underneath me. The softies carved the groom just fine but the more even flex and better response of the raichles ruled on and off piste.

Comfort of the molded liners in the raichles was way better than the drivers with custom foot beds Due to the crushing effect of any strap binding. The burton SI was more comfy than the drivers+flow but my ankles/feet got tired and painful much quicker than in the HBs due to shell deformation and the extra ankle strength reguired to drive soft boots.

In summary, since don't do park or tweak airs, I find no need drag out a secondary system that has less durability and response with more bulk, fuss factor and foot pain than the simple stepin system, usable for stiff skinny race, or soft wide powder boards, that I've been using for well over a decade with no breakage issues.

Hard setups can and will over power soft freeride boards if you drive them too hard. But like cars, I'd rather drive one that's over-powerd than under-powered (i.e. 185x18 gs race with 124s), just keep a light foot to stay in control to avoid breakage.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I agree that the over all stiffness of these setups was very similar but thats were it ends.

And you're comparing to one of the stiffest soft boot with a stiff binding, not "modern low-grade softboots PLUS low-grade bindings".

[philw]

I may be a Foole but many 100's of days in hardshells in all snow conditions speaks from experience.

Useful data - thanks. People have lots of different opinions, but when someone actually says what they tried and what they found, well then I find it much easier to accept as data.

[b0ardski]

After the comparison tests last season I sold the flows for what I paid after a couple of days use; and then traded the drivers for a 5th pair of old nitro stepins. big Happy for me.

I kept the BurtonSI even though I may never use them because they ride almost as well as the driver+flows and mrs. boardski uses them, (5 pairs 1 for every board) and they have no resale value.

We picked up used bindings and like new boots last year on fleabay for under $50 shipped. Highly recommended as an under appreciated, easy to use, good performance softy setup, available on the cheap.

Not for clydesdales or aggro park riders. Plastic latch cups in the bootsole break out from bigger guys making hard landings.

[BlueB]

I'm yet to see a softy setup that would be even close to softest hard boots in the terms of ankle suport, foot stabillity, comfort, lateral flex. The only part that can be somewaht matched, is forward flex...

Softest h/boots I've tried were LeMans, previously known as 423 and 413. Prety noodly, couldn't carve very steep and fast with confidence.

In softboot/binding combos, I've tried many things. Here are some crazy and not so crazy setups, that kinda worked for me:

Burton Driver, Kevlar laces upgrade, Raichle hardboot tongue insert / Burton 3-strap - most supprt, acceptable lateral flex, pain in the neck to get geared up, uggly and unsafe due to the age of the bindings.

Burton Driver / Nidecker Carbon 800 - acceptable ride, probably the best combo, too stiff on the heel side, not enough sideways stabillity.

Vans SI/ Vans Switch with highback - best foot stabillity, but not very stiff flex.

Rode the softy angles from 15/5 to 45/35...

My main issue with soft boots is that I never have feeling that my ankles are safe enough. I always think (and feel) that I'd bust them if something went wrong. Also, they lack the power and linearity of resposne I can get from the hardboots.

Verdict: I go softy only when snow school makes me do it.

[terekhov]

I may be a Foole but many 100's of days in hardshells in all snow conditions speaks from experience.

:) just reread my post - english is not my native language, so I sound pretty harsh - sorry for that. nothing personal at all)

too much opinionness come from different backgrounds, so I state mine: 90kg, pretty aggressive moguls carver in hardboots almost all of the time) I drive board strongly with feet - so idea is to ride noboard-style, with even pressure of foot' sole against the board at all times - not using extra support of boots+bindings to leverage board controls, just to give some protection and controllable corrections in case of unanticipated undulations in snow. after some 100-200 days of relearning to foot-driving technique - I came to conclusion that boot's stiffness not so significant anymore. BTW - now I ride mountaineer's plastic boots (lowa civetta) in flow's in backcountry, and when I try this for the first day on slopes - I've done BX course on them! ))

when people start to say that hard softboots is SOFT comparable to hardboots - it's almost definitely that they regularly use boot uppers to leverage his boards....

sorry again)

[b0ardski]

No worries Terekhov:biggthump

discussion is all good.

My being a Foole was all tongue in cheek.

Just explaining the basis of my opinion that the softest of hardboots are still more responsive than the stiffest softboots.

Being an expert alpine & tele skier before going to mostly snowboard, I do tend to drive with my knees rather than ankles.

I have some old nordica SBS soft boots that would be great for noboarding. There's a couple local guys that noboard the whole mountain here at Schwietzer on a snow skate deck mounted to a custom 155 powder skwal. no board version of the new isolation plates. Followed them around a few runs last year, I may have to demo one this season.

[kinpa]

I intend using them with something like an F2 Eliminator or Tanker

I had the F2 Eliminator that was red/white/blue with the lightning bolt on it.... probably got it in the mid to late '90s.... it was my go to board for years... I used it to teach on and would freeride quite a lot too. Some years I would start the season with soft boots on it, but almost always ended up putting the plates back on (luckily past ski school directors didn't mind me teaching in hard boots!). I finally retired it last year.... it has seen better days, that's for sure!

[Mats]

I just saw this thread and wanted to say that wide is the thing for me in most conditions. I ride my 192 Superswede (24,2 waist and aprox 11m sidecut). The style of riding I´m into suits this setup. I ride really softned upp Deluxe 325's with soft F2 plastic bindings, softest BTS as well. Soft, soft, soft. But in a different way then say, Salomon Malamuts, or F2 Hurricanes.

A wider twintip works everywhere exept tight trees and my riding has taken a direction a stiffer and narrower setup never could has taken me. Here´s a little video where Tom Palka and I wide boards. The Superswede is tailored for HB's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJLsHOQW8W0&feature=player_embedded#!