How long has "alpine" been an entity in snowboarding?

[KingCrimson]

A fun little summer question..

When was alpine snowboarding widely recognized as a completely different discipline from freestyle/freeride?

There was a period when everyone on pointy squaretails with the front foot at 45 and the rear straight, and then some years later, boards like PJs started showing up.

There is a large gray area where you had guys like Sanders hitting the pipe in plates, and movies like One Track Mind with softboot racing.

It seems like the Safari was the first alpine board, but was that nomenclature around?

[b0ardski]

I've been calling plate binding &/or plastic boots with forward angles alpine since I first saw "alpine mountaineering" boots (plastic lace up) used in '88.

Most of the shop guys I talked with then knew what I meant by "alpine style".

That same year I rode the 1st carve specific board I ever saw, a narrow (21cm?) square tail Look with alpine stance (25/45), same model year as the 1st trick stick which I also demoed. I used Merrel super comps (plastic buckled cuff, leather over plastic lower) in strap bindings.

The trick stick couldn't even compare to the carve-ability of the Look alpine.

Here's the boots on my 1st board

[Petrol]

at risk of thwarting my chances at being awarded the medal for courageous restraint, I have to say one retrospective look at that set-up helps explain why so many mountains banned snowboards

[b0ardski]

I don't blame them for banning non metal edged boards. however that setup kicked a$$ on sorels with skiboot liners.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Great question young man!! Don't you all love the enthusiasm brought into the community by

some of our younger members. Well done!!

It is broad enough to include plenty of discussion.

Other associated questions might be:

What is the earliest hard boot /binding set up you are aware of?

Who was the first manufacturer to provide production alpine plate bindings.

Please share the earliest plate bindings photo/video you can find.

Etc.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

at risk of thwarting my chances at being awarded the medal for courageous restraint, I have to say one retrospective look at that set-up helps explain why so many mountains banned snowboards

Yes, as recent as Aspen / SES a few years back.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I've been calling plate binding &/or plastic boots with forward angles alpine since I first saw "alpine mountaineering" boots (plastic lace up) used in '88.

Most of the shop guys I talked with then knew what I meant by "alpine style".

That same year I rode the 1st carve specific board I ever saw, a narrow (21cm?) square tail Look with alpine stance (25/45), same model year as the 1st trick stick which I also demoed. I used Merrel super comps (plastic buckled cuff, leather over plastic lower) in strap bindings.

The trick stick couldn't even compare to the carve-ability of the Look alpine.

Here's the boots on my 1st board

Interesting combo, looks very functional (for the times)

Along the same lines I used "Alpine" boots (hard shell climbing boots) in soft bindings with the high backs removed to summit and ride Mt Hood years ago.

[b0ardski]

the 1st true snowboard plates I saw were 2 piece emery surfs, new in 87 at the rental shop at Hyak. looked like these

The 1st plates I encountered were Fritchi alpine ski plates on one of the 1st metal edged avalanche boards. I rode the lift at ski acres up with the owner of a skate shop in Belleview, Wa. that used that board with leather lace-up ski boots in Dec. '86.

I have an old set of those Fritchi plates in a junk box, I'll post up a pic later today after I find the camera.

[softbootsurfer]

I vas giofgioefg; xjfg hugag lfjkgeh u;

[b0ardski]

I have always thought that riders using a parallel stance as Alpine...

and

That most if not all the early Euro folks used a parallel stance and that Sims

and Burton pushed the Skate Thing first?

Softboot / Hardboot to me has never been an indication on it's own of

Alpine riding...

Agreed, alpine indicates stance, but I've been calling plates & plastic boots "alpine gear" since the '80s, whatever board they were on.

[tahoetrencher]

Was the old neon green base, wide, symmetrical rossi, called, you guessed it,

"The Alpine"

At least that's what we all called it. Mine might have said 173A (instead of spelling out alpine- can't remember)

Mine had the same Emery's pictured above. You could easily break multiple bails daily.

But those were the racing ski boot days

I think Burton was already making the "Alp" but the FP was still a few years away if I recall,( maybe they were out but still asym?)

In a sense snowboarding has always been alpine (square tailed) as you mention. It wasn't until the boys started messing around in the Tahoe City dump (inventing the halfpipe)

and pushed it toward freestyle/skaterstyle (Tom Simms) that we needed a differentiating nomenclature. Jake resisted this momentum at first I think 'cause it wasn't what he was good at.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well as I recall the early boards were attempts to mimic surfboards (Winterstick, Sims FE) and then later they switched to incorporate ski design and got more square-tailed looking (Sims Blade, Burton Safari). I had a Blade in '87 or so but like most I rode it in softies. The first plate setups I lusted after were the PJs but I think Damian was already rocking plates for freestyle and Burt for the steeps at the time.

[BlueB]

Take an analogy to the skiing, the original snow-sliding sport:

Alpine predates the freestyle, while freeride is a part of alpine. Definition of alpine is sliding downhill, mostly in contact with the snow, mostly in forward direction, focusing mostly on the skill of turning as the means of going in desired direction, speed controll and stopping. It can be done in the set course (race), on-piste (cruise/freecarve) and off-piste (freeride). Jumps are performed seldom and mostly as the means of overcoming the obstacles.

Freestyle focus is on doing the tricks, aerial or non-aerial, as a form of on-snow gymnastics or "ballet". It can be done in natural environment (all-mountain freestyle), or on man made features (park/pipe). Backward direction is an importand part of riding. Jumps are performed as the means of expression.

In snowboarding the clear deffinition is blured by the issues of the stance, board shape and boot/binding combo. Trying to define alpine by one of these categories would always fail. Example: One could ride hard boots on a twintip board board and do the park. Or, softboots and 3-strap bindings on a race board. Or hard boots on all-mountain carver and just "freeride" without carving it up. Or a ful-on freestyle setup in the race course... Where do you draw the line?

The original "mountain surfers" were mostly riding the mountain in forward direction and turning, thus being alpine. Along came the skate monkeys, marketing took the sport over, consumers rode the wave and suddenly, everyone is "freestyle", while wery few remember the actual meaning of the alpine...

[KingCrimson]

I wasn't be specific in my first post because I wanted to keep the thread relatively broad.

There are some "dark" periods in snowboarding that leave some questions about when the obvious split into dedicated carving happened.

For the purposes of this discussion, I think alpine only includes softboots if we're referring to carving before the proliferation of hardboots.

At the USASA Nationals, I asked Bruce Varsava what he thought of Hardboot BX racers' extinction. Slightly hunched over to keep the weight of his Apex-topped NSR on the safety bar, he described snowboard racing at a point when nobody knew if hardboots were faster or better.

To me, this described a period prior to the obvious division between freestyle and alpine. What happened between this and P&J?

[Seraph]

Take an analogy to the skiing, the original snow-sliding sport:

Alpine predates the freestyle, while freeride is a part of alpine. Definition of alpine is sliding downhill, mostly in contact with the snow, mostly in forward direction, focusing mostly on the skill of turning as the means of going in desired direction, speed controll and stopping. It can be done in the set course (race), on-piste (cruise/freecarve) and off-piste (freeride). Jumps are performed seldom and mostly as the means of overcoming the obstacles.

Freestyle focus is on doing the tricks, aerial or non-aerial, as a form of on-snow gymnastics or "ballet". It can be done in natural environment (all-mountain freestyle), or on man made features (park/pipe). Backward direction is an importand part of riding. Jumps are performed as the means of expression.

In snowboarding the clear deffinition is blured by the issues of the stance, board shape and boot/binding combo. Trying to define alpine by one of these categories would always fail. Example: One could ride hard boots on a twintip board board and do the park. Or, softboots and 3-strap bindings on a race board. Or hard boots on all-mountain carver and just "freeride" without carving it up. Or a ful-on freestyle setup in the race course... Where do you draw the line?

The original "mountain surfers" were mostly riding the mountain in forward direction and turning, thus being alpine. Along came the skate monkeys, marketing took the sport over, consumers rode the wave and suddenly, everyone is "freestyle", while wery few remember the actual meaning of the alpine...

Say a prayer that there was/is no ballet event in snowboarding....that was like the equivalent of polyester for skiing. :)

[b0ardski]

Say a prayer that there was/is no ballet event in snowboarding....that was like the equivalent of polyester for skiing. :)

I resemble that leisure suit:rolleyes:

haven't tried a pole flip yet though:biggthump

I think '89-'90, the neon era, marked a fork in the road. That's when UPS, Burton, Raichle, Nordica, started making snowboard specific plastic boots designed for freecarve & racing, and freestylers were cutting off the tips and widening the stances to facilitate spinning.

Narrower carve/race boards, plates & hardshells were commonly found in most board shops and asyms started to appear to match the "alpine" stance.

[Rob Stevens]

When did a rider first turn their back foot to match the angle of the front?

That's the question.

The first guys I saw who did this were the Sims team at Blackcomb for the OP Pro in 88 - 89. They were training on Whistler and I was asked to "guide" them for the week, as I was the only instructor there at the time. Seeing them carve affected me so much that I re-drilled my Kemper Aggressor that night and subsequently set off on a few years of great carving and average freeriding.

[softbootsurfer]

such notables as...

Peter Bauer

Jose Fernandez

Leo Plank

Dave Alden

Jean Nerva

All were not quite there, but it would seem the Racing back then was the

motivator of the back foot alignment to the front...of course there may have

been freeriders prior to 87 that did it as well...we may not ever really know.

This from Pics in Bauers Book "Snowboarding" copyright 1988

[BlueB]

How parallel you need to be to be "parallel"? I think the really parallel riders are minority. On hardboots I use splays from 3 to 25 degrees, depending on what I wanted to predominantly do on the given setup. Even with the large splay, I consider myself "alpine".

SBS, I don't thing you attached that photo?

[softbootsurfer]

How parallel you need to be to be "parallel"? I think the really parallel riders are minority. On hardboots I use splays from 3 to 25 degrees, depending on what I wanted to predominantly do on the given setup. Even with the large splay, I consider myself "alpine".

SBS, I don't thing you attached that photo?

No, and none our parallel...I certainly agree with You however that Alpine

is not necessarilly parallel...I myself was not Parallel until the equipment

allowed me to be...My thinking here is some forward in both feet was and is

Alpine Style...:)

[WinterGold]

When talking about the beginning of the "alpine" movement don´t forget the French company "Hot". In the 88/89 season they introduced the Hot Revolution. This board had already a recommended angle of 40° for the back foot.

And Andre Maszewski was killing it on those boards. There are some amazing pictures of him - pretty "modern" style. He also performed very well on the ISF tour in the slalom discipline.

Later Hot released the Logicals and then the famous Blasts, which were available till the 09 season, I think.

[b0ardski]

IMO I've always considered "alpine stance" to be at least 20+ degrees on the back foot.

Never liked the feel of parallel (0 splay) at any angle, even when I tried a skwal at tahoe in '98. Zero or negative splay is definitely the minority of alpine riders. I rode with a volly patroller at Hyak from '91-'96 who rocked on a 175 avalanche kick at 45/45. Grego was a long time randonee skier and used Raichle Concordias for both.

I'll ride wide twin tips as low as 25r/38f and still consider that alpine stance.

10* +/- of splay is what feels right to me and I'll only go as low as 5-7 on 18cm boards. It's as individual cant & lift.

[scrutton]

I was riding a Burton Air with Burton plate bindings and ski boots in 1988.

[tahoetrencher]

with the old Kemper Apex GS170. The asym tail was AT LEAST 45o so a forward rear foot was required.

[KingCrimson]

Would you consider the Air with plates to be an alpine setup?

That doesn't really seem to be a "carving" rig.