Health Care Bill

[heroshmero]

And, to use your point, if Medicaid uses its money so much better than other companies why do we need new legislation?

Good question. Maybe because the country seems to be scared of the word "socialism". Pretty funny when you think about all the services that benefit from federal funds... roads, airports, police, firefighters, schools... the list goes on and on.

[bobdea]

someone said in a lame argument that you can't talk to conservatives because the Billybobs are so afraid they will have their guns taken away (paraphrased)

really? that's like saying you can't converse with a liberal because their bleeding hearts are hemorrhaging from trying to save the baby whales while killing fetuses in humans.

let's have constructive talks here instead of stupid "you're this!" "you're that!"

playground mentality.

before anyone harps on the abortion topic, i believe in equal opportunity death... death penalty, abortion rights, and end to life rights.

aaaand back to healthcare!

.

yeah, that was me and I was specifically reffering to a couple comments from petrol that revealed his outlook on these things crying communism and to a couple of Jacks arguments basically saying if you have a good job you are all set.

thing is, most people don't at one time or another and even if you do it means nothing if you have claims denied or coverage for that matter.

FYI I don't really mind what people say if they can back it up a bit.

[bobdea]

what topic would you have to argue with "full-on-red-communists" over?

christ, thank you for making my point for me.

[bobdea]

I would call 60 Billion awash. The frauds are carried out by criminals, not businesses.

CBS 60 Minutes, 10.25.09:

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it is the first story in the episode, and is about 15 minutes long.

bad example, plus, you're assuming corporations are not composed of people who break the law on behalf of the interest of the corporation. that 60 min clip did not focus the biggest medicare thieves, the hospitals and the companies like lincare who for example was billing medicare for oxygen concentrators that he never had seen. it's the legit corporations that steal the most money from medicare and it's systematic.

the 60 video is only part of the problem and only tackles t5he guys who make a fake company for fraud.

[Aisling]

I think it can work in small scale, ie, Iceland, etc. but not in a country of 300+ million people.

It begs the question, if capitalism is so bad, why do people leave socialist countries to live here?

Why is even China starting to embrace capitalism?

What's wrong with thinking if you work your a$$ off you should be able to do with your income what you wish and not be made to be charitable?

Charity comes from humane desire to do so.. forced redistribution of wealth is not charity, because it is FORCED.

In my community, we have what we call "times" for people in need.

"hey bud we're havin a time for so and so ... guy's got cancer,lost his job etc" so we have a get together where people donate $20, $30+ bucks each and the community rallies to support their friend. that's charity. people choose to do this, they aren't told if they don't give to their neighbor they will have to pay a fine or be jailed.

and a pithy comment to end this : why can't socialism work?

because it gets paid not to ;)

[ZetaTre]

Wohhh... I'm surprised so few people are $#@%!* pissed!!! But maybe that's just why it passed... Americans got lazy, they have been leaving comfortably because of the freedom and liberty that the Const has been providing us and has started trading it for security... Started with FDR, then LBJ and the list just get longer.

Another point is that probably 'till back in '89 there was the anti-ruski propaganda holding back, but not anymore: central planing has failed miserably everywhere and now we're missing something to compare against.

I'm young, disillusioned, and Italian (where everything is public and everything is F'ed up - that's why given the opportunity I left), so I haven't lost the hope that the trajectory can change, but I was very upset on Sunday watching C-SPAN...

[Jack M]

I think it can work in small scale, ie, Iceland, etc.

Iceland is bankrupt.

[Aisling]

Iceland is bankrupt.

jack i was using someone else's example ...but well there ya go. can't even really work in small scale.

[Transistor Rhythm]

I think it can work in small scale, ie, Iceland, etc. but not in a country of 300+ million people.

It begs the question, if capitalism is so bad, why do people leave socialist countries to live here?

Why is even China starting to embrace capitalism?

There are many forms of "socialism", you shouldn't mix up China's version of socialism with ours or Scandinavia. People will go where more money and freedom is, or at least seems to be. In many ways China and Russia are more like America than Europe nowadays, pure capitalist greed, only great for those with the money.

If you need handouts by your family, friends or community to get by if you get into unforseen trouble, you're doomed if you're new somewhere or simply not liked by your community, because you happen to live your life the way you want to live it instead the way the community wants you to be.

Iceland is bankrupt.

Could happen in America too if it would be a smaller country! It's about unchecked capitalism, about the same cause as the current American crisis. I really don't understand why a wise guy like you either doesn't want to know what he's saying or deliberately tries to put things in a wrong perspective?...now you have someone like Aisling believing Iceland being bankrupt has anything to do with socialism! If you're so sure about your stance on this subject, why are you trying to spread FUD?

[bobdea]

I think it can work in small scale, ie, Iceland, etc. but not in a country of 300+ million people.

It begs the question, if capitalism is so bad, why do people leave socialist countries to live here?

Why is even China starting to embrace capitalism?

What's wrong with thinking if you work your a$$ off you should be able to do with your income what you wish and not be made to be charitable?

Charity comes from humane desire to do so.. forced redistribution of wealth is not charity, because it is FORCED.

In my community, we have what we call "times" for people in need.

"hey bud we're havin a time for so and so ... guy's got cancer,lost his job etc" so we have a get together where people donate $20, $30+ bucks each and the community rallies to support their friend. that's charity. people choose to do this, they aren't told if they don't give to their neighbor they will have to pay a fine or be jailed.

and a pithy comment to end this : why can't socialism work?

because it gets paid not to ;)

LOL, as far as china goes it's not new unless you mean gradually over the last 25 years or more.

there have been no pure capitalist societies that have worked. the closest thing might of been pinochete's chile and after letting banks and a few other sectors run unregulated ended up having to socialize them to keep them afloat.

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[bobdea]

There are many forms of "socialism", you shouldn't mix up China's version of socialism with ours or Scandinavia. People will go where more money and freedom is, or at least seems to be. In many ways China and Russia are more like America than Europe nowadays, pure capitalist greed, only great for those with the money.

If you need handouts by your family, friends or community to get by if you get into unforseen trouble, you're doomed if you're new somewhere or simply not liked by your community, because you happen to live your life the way you want to live it instead the way the community wants you to be.

a large portion of americans don't really understand the differences between them nor do they care. it's like arguing if the moon is green with a blind man. china has possibly the most free manufacturing sector in existence. as long as you don't make tibetan flags or print anti government propaganda they let you do anything. not pay workers, lock them up in slavery type conditions or whatever. anything goes, in that sense it's the it's very capitalist but at the same time is a totalitarian regime unlike pinochete's government that I mentioned before.

[Aisling]

a large portion of americans don't really understand the differences between them nor do they care. it's like arguing if the moon is green with a blind man.

is the guy colour blind or straight up blind ? ;)

[BobD]

In my community, we have what we call "times" for people in need.

"hey bud we're havin a time for so and so ... guy's got cancer,lost his job etc" so we have a get together where people donate $20, $30+ bucks each and the community rallies to support their friend. that's charity. people choose to do this, they aren't told if they don't give to their neighbor they will have to pay a fine or be jailed.

So the problem is that you have to know the person that needs help, and if you don't know them, it's tough luck pal. The world has moved on since people spent their entire lives in a village. A society of 250 million would scary place if we all thought that way.

[Aisling]

If you need handouts by your family, friends or community to get by if you get into unforseen trouble, you're doomed if you're new somewhere or simply not liked by your community, because you happen to live your life the way you want to live it instead the way the community wants you to be.

Ok but by that logic, if I happen to live my life the way i want to live, which is I give to people when i want to, from my heart, not because the government forces me to, then i am doomed in a socialist country as i will be fined or jailed for not complying with what the govt has set forth, yes?

[Aisling]

So the problem is that you have to know the person that needs help, and if you don't know them, it's tough luck pal. The world has moved on since people spent their entire lives in a village. A society of 250 million would scary place if we all thought that way.

by your logic, as we don't all live in a village, we have millions of people... everyone knows someone don't they?

[Petrol]

christ, thank you for making my point for me.

lighten up Francis, it's called Humor

oh, and it's Christ... Freudian, or parapraxis :p

[Transistor Rhythm]

Ok but by that logic, if I happen to live my life the way i want to live, which is I give to people when i want to, from my heart, not because the government forces me to, then i am doomed in a socialist country as i will be fined or jailed for not complying with what the govt has set forth, yes?

Well you will be fined and jailed right now and you're not even living in a socialist country! Would you accept an America where you don't pay taxes at all because there is no government and without any form of involuntary taxation by your community? Would you dare to live in America without any form of real centralized defence for example?

In any growing community first people start to create leaders, then laws, then taxes.

[newcarver]

by your logic, as we don't all live in a village, we have millions of people... everyone knows someone don't they?

What happens if everyone in your small community is poor and struggling too?

[bobdea]

lighten up Francis, it's called Humor

oh, and it's Christ... Freudian, or parapraxis :p

I smiled when I typed it, I'm pretty mild mannered today.

[Petrol]

I smiled when I typed it, I'm pretty mild mannered today.

cheers. threadjack out.

[C5 Golfer]

It seems the people most unhappy about the Health care plan just passed are the ones that are very healthy and always have been and/or have a great health plan at work, the people most happy about the recent health care plan are the one that have a pre-existing condition like cancer.

I hope those that are unhappy can continue to be healthy as you are now... but next year--- who knows what will happen ---there is nothing worse than having a pre-existing condition that an insurance company rejects you for and you pay everything yourself.

[Alaskan Rover]

"If capitalism is so bad, why do people leave socialist countries to live here?"....posted by Aisling.

Aisling: See that's the point. People confuse socialism with communism, and they are of two entirely different subsets. The socialist countries I was using as examples were Sweden; Norway; Dennmark; Finland and Switzerland. I see now nor ever NO mass exodus from THOSE countries to the U.S.

I don't consider Cuba; North Korea; China; Venezuela amongst others as TRUE socialist countries, but rather as totalitarianist Marxist regimes...that people DO leave in droves to escape.

Sweden, et al, are countries whose political systems actually work fairly fluidly, thus giving their respective populaces no concrete reason to leave. In fact, most citizens of those aforementioned socialist countries are quite deservedly proud of their countries and governments.

Of course, NO system of governance is EVER is perfect...such would simply be an exercise in impossibility. Those aformentioned countries DO, in fact, have a working system of capitalism...it works cohesively with a socialistic government....there is no reason why it cannot here, also.

I think such 'Randian', 'Galtian' philosphy as embraced by the conservative right in this country is actually fairly abrasive to a democratic system and is more aligned with outright anarchy.

In no way is charity FORCED upon a person in the countries I had mentioned...it is TAXES not charity. We are forced to pay taxes in this country too. Taxes that pay for our roads, airports, schools, etc etc.

As far as health is concerned though, I DO somewhat align myself with the "OTHER SIDE" and believe that the best health care is proactive care that we give to OURSELVES, by eating right and taking care of our bodies and our minds. And I firmly believe that INDIVIDUALS should be ultimately responsible for our health and not rely upon some sort of a safety net.

So I guess I am a very odd duck of a socialist...one that believes in the strength of the individual, but hopes that the individual can indeed be altruistic. Does that make me "Bi"??

Gravity IS Life.

[ZetaTre]

there is nothing worse than having a pre-existing condition that an insurance company rejects you for and you pay everything yourself.

Yes, there is: having you neighbor being forced to pay for it...

[Aisling]

Well you will be fined and jailed right now and you're not even living in a socialist country! Would you accept an America where you don't pay taxes at all because there is no government and without any form of involuntary taxation by your community? Would you dare to live in America without any form of real centralized defence for example?

In any growing community first people start to create leaders, then laws, then taxes.

:) I knew you would bring up taxes and I nearly addressed it but then waited.

My point is it has to stop somewhere... already we pay money towards SS, medicare, medicaid that are meant to cover those who have trouble paying. So why mandate health care? thereby encompassing those who simply have chosen not to purchase it, even when they could do so financially... thereby increasing the burden on those who pay into these whilst allowing people who feel like they want to live their lives on welfare and handouts to continue sitting around doing nothing about it?

the option for those who are too poor, having tough times is supposedly already in place with those systems so there is no need to force people to have it and force people to pay more for those who would otherwise just not buy it of their own free will.

i put an example of a rich person in a post further above, who is on Free Care here in my state. why are people working hard, struggling to pay their bills, paying for her to leech off the system when she could purchase it herself but somehow defrauded MassHealth?

again, the systems are there... they need to be better monitored for the people who really need them. I don't think this country is running amok with greedy, rich people trying to keep the poor people down. unless we're talking about the politicians. ;)

[Petrol]

I hope those that are unhappy can continue to be healthy as you are now... but next year--- who knows what will happen ---there is nothing worse than having a pre-existing condition that an insurance company rejects you for and you pay everything yourself.

sounds like a textbook example of a candidate for medicare... now, if it weren't so damn awash in fraud, waste and abuse... and denied services and waiting lists