newbie question

[redserge]

Greetings everybody!

I'm a total newbie to this site and carving community in general. Couple of seasons ago I've witnessed several snowboarders at the Big Bear Mountain resort in So. <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = " /><st1:State w:st="on">Cal</ST1:p</st1:State> doing what, I guess, you guys call carving or even "extreme carving" and was just totally blown away by watching them. Now, about myself: I've started to snowboard (freestyle board and soft boots) many years ago (around 1997) and became what I've thought an intermediate to advanced rider. I've never got into doing jumps but can ride most runs at any of our local So. Cal</ST1:p resorts fairly comfortable. Six or so years ago I've decided to learn how to ski (along with my 2 daughters) and have been mostly skiing since that time. I think last season I've started to make some carving turns on my skis and I kind of felt, I think, that special moment of g-force or whatever it is, that makes you lay these perfect turns when you know how to control it. Than I've remembered the riders I saw and decided to try the same on my old freestyle snowboard without much success. I ran into two main problems: first, my boot heels and toes are digging the snow when I try to carve; second – my stance (binding angles F15/R0) feels awkward, especially while trying to lay a heel turn. So, I thought, it was time to buy another board. I went on line to do some research and found this forum, as well as extremecarving.com place. I've read all the info in the welcome center section of this site as well as all the FAQ's.

I’d like to still try carving with my old gear before spending any money on new equipment by practicing The Norm and so on, just like it says on this site. I have an old K2 Dart 155 cm freestyle snowboard with K2 Clicker step-in bindings and boots. This is the kind of boot/binding set up that is not very common – boots are harder than the regular soft snowboarding boots and they click into the bindings with the toe and heel mounted fasteners.

So, first of all, is that possible/safe to start carving with such gear? If yes, my second question, what binding angles should I start practicing with? I guess the angles should be at least enough to not have the heels and the toes of my boots hang over the board edges? Is that right, or should I try right away with the stance that most alpine snowboarders/carvers use – F55/R50 or so?

Appreciate any feedback!

[heroshmero]

Generally speaking the way you initiate turns changes when you put your binding angles up past 45. At 45 and above you initiate your turns with more of a side to side motion like you have been doing on skis.

And yes, it's safe to put your current freestyle board setup at those angles. You probably won't be able to generate the power in the turn that you will be able to when you graduate to a narrow board and plastic boots but it will give you a chance to work on that technique.

Also, when you are ready to try plastic boots and plate bindings, mount them on your current board before you try a narrow alpine board. That again will give you the chance to work on your technique before stepping up to an alpine board.

Welcome and have fun!

[pow4ever]

Welcome!!!

As a recent convert. Just my 2 cents.

You can try higher angle on softboot.

You can also try plate/hb on bx/freeride board.

I even demo a full on hardboot/plate/alpine board and was half expecting that I was able to carve right off the bat. <-- how wrong i was...

Did the above. However I feel that it didn't help me much. it's like golf. I spent countless time at the driving range. However it didn't help much as I didn't know the proper technique/musle mechanice suppose to be.

What really improve my riding was to watch/follow other alpine boarder.

Don't be afraid to ask for help/tip. I havn't meet a unfriendly carver yet :) Go to the ride board and introduce youself.

Seem like you did your homework. Which is great.

I read and read and nothing really click in until someone point out what I am doing wrong.

HTH and welcome again.

David

[Pat Donnelly]

http://www.vimeo.com/9981200 riding a Burton SuperModel and carvin it up

[Terryw]

Instead of watching us, you should come carve with us . It is possible to carve in a soft setup. I know a few riders who can carve in any set up you give them. You should definitely be able to do the Norm. Try to master that prior to switching over to the stiffer alpine equipment. Pay attention to the ride board for so cal. We have a pretty good group hitting Snow Summit on a very regular basis. Any of us would be happy to help you make the transition to carving. You might even be able to borrow some equipment from us and try an alpine setup. You just have to come hang with us! You can find us on chair 1 first thing in the morning at the opening. After that we usually migrate over to chair 7 to rip it up.

[kjl]

So, first of all, is that possible/safe to start carving with such gear? If yes, my second question, what binding angles should I start practicing with? I guess the angles should be at least enough to not have the heels and the toes of my boots hang over the board edges? Is that right, or should I try right away with the stance that most alpine snowboarders/carvers use – F55/R50 or so?

Hi - welcome. You can crank your binding angles up, but be sure to slide the highbacks around so that the boot cuff doesn't fall off them on your heelside turns (so rotate them so the highbacks still face the heelside edge of the board). You will have a hard time pressuring the toeside edge of the board with your back foot at 50 in my opinion. At that point you have a significant mechanical disadvantage. Softbootsailer (in that video) has rigged up three strap bindings (extra strap around the top of the boot) to compensate.

I have smallish feet, so it is easier for me, but you might try something in between. I find that both of my carved turns are pretty good at 39F/21R, though I need to put weight on the front foot on the heelside carve and weight on the back foot on the toeside carve. And of course they are not nearly as good as the carves on hardboots. You could try angles somewhere around there, and if you still have too much overhang, maybe stick in some risers to see if that buys you a few more degrees of lean. I used to use those Palmer plates a long time ago; don't know if they still make them.

[Corey]

One other thing to note is that most freestyle/freeride boards have much tighter sidecuts than alpine boards do. This just means that you need to go slower to really have that board hook into a carve. It took me a while to get used to this as I used to go quite fast on my soft board - way above the speed I could carve a pure turn with the very deep sidecut.

Try slowing it down a bit and doing the Norm exercise.

[redserge]

Thanks everybody for the welcome and all the pointers!

Instead of watching us, you should come carve with us . Pay attention to the ride board for so cal. We have a pretty good group hitting Snow Summit on a very regular basis. Any of us would be happy to help you make the transition to carving. You might even be able to borrow some equipment from us and try an alpine setup. You just have to come hang with us! You can find us on chair 1 first thing in the morning at the opening. After that we usually migrate over to chair 7 to rip it up.

Terryw, thanks for the invitation! I might be able to hook up with you guys one day, but would like to practice a little on my own first to get at least some handle on it, to not embarrass you guys when/if we meet ;)! I'm planning a trip to Brian Head, UT for the spring break - should be a perfect place to practice as it's not crowded even during peak season...

[SteveInOregon]

Welcome,

This is the mother of all hard boot -binding forums, with readers from all over the world.

A lot of the guys who regularly contribute here have been riding hard boots on long skinny so called "alpine" boards for many many years, some are builders, and some are PGS type racers.

There are some run of the mill jerks here (( like me )) ;) but I am on Vicodin and home made beer right now so I am a nice guy at least for a few hours lol, (busted my ankle ).

Seriously: I started this season on opening day so I am a NUB like You to hard boots.

The 1st time on hard boots was this Dec I attached plate bindings to my 176 all mountain board (( profile photo )) and loved it, I started out just going higher in boot angle degree a bit at a time, and soon I was up past 55 degrees in a few weeks on the front boot and just a little less on the back.

You will soon find that the typical all mountain board does not have enough inherent stability up on edge at a high angle. ( specially compared to a narrow focus carving board, but If you are a a good athlete You have flog it into high angle corners and "make" it stick the carve

I am not a techno guy, nor do I have enough time on carving boards to give you an in depth explanation, but its my limited experience that a non carving board does not have a lot of what I call "edge hold" ability it flexes to much, chatters, lack torsional kind of stability and feels like it wants to literally break.

Remedy: I bought a $75 "rock board" here off of the BOL " buy & sell section by posting in the "wanted to buy" forum what I was looking for.

I got a 185cm legit skinny width Oxygen carving board and Ebay boots and 2nd hand old plate bindings just to get my feet wet and I LOVE it. so yuo dont have to buy a $500 or $1,200 board and $250 or more boots.

The difference is day & night, this old alpine carving board is stable and has no problem being tossed or leaned up on high edge, it transitions from left to right edge fast and holding an arc is no problem so long as you stay on top of it, and "fast", ya they are a lot faster than a typical park or fat & wide pow sled, its not "ski" fast but the fastest board on the mountain in a strait bomb & transition to carve. ( that is if I am the only alpine carve guy on the mountain, wich is usually the case )

Oh ya, one more thing if you want to keep posting here after 1 season then you have to buy new Bomber brand binding from Fin < owner of BOL lol.:p

[redserge]

Hi - welcome. You can crank your binding angles up, but be sure to slide the highbacks around so that the boot cuff doesn't fall off them on your heelside turns (so rotate them so the highbacks still face the heelside edge of the board).

Thanks again for the advice!

BTW, my bindings do not come with highbacks. Like I sad, it's a very uncommon set up - the boots are much harder than the regular softboots (especially in the back/heel side) and the bindings consist of just two flat bases with front and back fasteners. Here is the pic of similar boots:

and the bindings:

I guess I'll try increasing the angle gradually by starting with 30-35 angle or so.

Any other suggestions?

Again, I really appreciate all the feedback in such a short time, you guys are a nice bunch for sure!

[kjl]

Oh yeah, I rode boots like that for a little while ago, like 12-13 years ago maybe. If I remember right, they did not have a huge amount of lateral stability (because the connection points were toe/heel), so you could waggle the boot left/right. I could be wrong... it was a while go.

But in any case it should not be a huge deal.

I agree with Corey - a 155 freestyle board will have a super tight turning radius. You should probably take it to a green (actually, if you are new to carving in general, regardless of gear, you should move to a green), and practice the norm exercise. If you get going too fast, you should probably just scrub the speed and reset, rather than trying to keep it together at a higher speed.

Take a look at the video Pat posted and watch for Bob, in the softboots - he rides like you want to ride - always carving, on a freeride board in softies; slow, rounded turns. Graceful, relaxed riding, not super powerful cranking, high-G turns, which your setup would have a hard time coping with.

[Loc]

Welcome to BOL, like Terry said you should introduce yourself in the SoCal forum. We have plenty of gear to share The best thing you can do for your carving this season is attend SNES at the end of March. See the thread here. I noticed you're from Irvine. I'm in Santa Ana on the weekends, hopefully we can ride together sometime!

[dingbat]

Redserge,

Remember when you are setting your binding angles that they are somewhat dependent on the width of the deck you are riding. Any degree higher than the angle that eliminates toe/heel overhang is going to cause you to loose your leverage advantage when pressuring the edge. Usualy a little toe and heel overhang is totaly acceptable with a soft boot setup as you don't have the suport to hold the board at an angle high enough for it to matter. For example, in the turn in the picture below, I had my rear knee riding the snow (just before the shot was taken) and I run about a centimeter of toe overhang on my rear boot. Angles approx 32/27 on a 24cm waist board. Boots size 27.5

[redserge]

Welcome to BOL, like Terry said you should introduce yourself in the SoCal forum. We have plenty of gear to share The best thing you can do for your carving this season is attend SNES at the end of March. See the thread here. I noticed you're from Irvine. I'm in Santa Ana on the weekends, hopefully we can ride together sometime!

Thanks for the welcome!

Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend the SNES at the June Mtn, as I'm going to Brian Head, UT just one week after, for 4 days. We should definitely hook up one day and ride together locally, maybe at the Snow Summit or Bear Mountain.