Need some teaching advice from other hardboot snowboard instructors

[Dave ESPI]

Just my opinion. Perhaps in a Level II or III class it might be a topic of discussion and would be worth of a hard boot demonstration, but in a Level I class where all students are riding softies...I'll stand firm. :) I'd go so far as to require it if I were in charge of the ski/snowboard school.

I and a few other people (instructors on this very forum) who are hardbooters on various mountains were subject to just such, ludicrus decrees as recient as last season. We stood our ground and proved again and again that we were superior instructors and even though we had hardboots, our students and classes surpassed others in the same alotment of time and lesson plans regardless of the equipment.

I was hired to teach as a snowboarder. I had "junk gear" that I could ride my ass off strapped to it, and the skill shown thru. I was hired on the spot. Back in 2005 before I was on plate bindings, I had ridden "agressive stance" since day 1 back in 1994 in softies. "Requiring" someone to use specific gear is assinine to say the least. Thats like saying every beginner needs the same stance and boards and bindings until they are deserving of an "upgrade" to choose what they want and feel most comfortable on.

Its not about HARD VERSUS SOFT, its about the right tool for the job, and knowing how to use it to get the desired results unilateraly.

EDIT: oh and I forgot about the "Humble pie" aspect. Every single person who takes even 1 hour to try and learn to snowboard gains a huge respect for those who are able to do it, and godwilling...make it look good. Even if they are an epic fail @ their own attempt to learn. Noone wants to fall, but the nature of Snowboarding: it is almost a requirement.

[Beckmann AG]

once the student gets their first big helping of humble pie and gets their ass handed to them

This is known in some circles as hyperbole, a common literary device.

And just to clarify, I am not suggesting that any client, beginner or otherwise, is supposed to have something handed to them, least of all their ass.

(Although I have seen a few get knocked onto said posterior by strong wind, but that is another issue.)

I have encountered far too many individuals that have failed in previous learning environments due to poor equipment configuration and pointless exercise lines.

I presume that their 'instructors' were 'properly' equipped, albeit lacking the necessary 'software'.

arguing about teaching technique is pointless

If you and your perceived 'adversary' had enough information on the topic, then there would be no argument, and there would, in fact, be a point to the endeavor.

Informed discussions pertaining to the many absolutes of moving over snow should be encouraged.

As President of CASI, I say "Solid".

Hey, thanks Rob.

[Jack M]

This is known in some circles as hyperbole, a common literary device.

Heh, I didn't mean to sound like every student is going to or needs to get injured in a beginner lesson. I meant that they are going to find out that their own sheer awesomeness isn't enough to just strap on a snowboard and go. Once that realization happens, like Dave said they gain an instant respect for the people who can do it, regardless of equipment.

[Jack M]

but in a Level I class where all students are riding softies...I'll stand firm. :) I'd go so far as to require it if I were in charge of the ski/snowboard school.

I think that's a bit harsh and unnecessary. In my experience, my equipment simply was not an issue in a beginner lesson, and the vast majority of my students successfully learned to ride the lift, link left and right turns repeatedly, control speed, and stop, after a 2 hour group lesson.

[BigBump]

If you and your perceived 'adversary' had enough information on the topic, then there would be no argument, and there would, in fact, be a point to the endeavor.

Informed discussions pertaining to the many absolutes of moving over snow should be encouraged.

Informed discussion is welcome. I felt this topic was just boiling down to another soft boot vs. hardboot debate and was expressing that.

To say there are many absolutes implies there are absolute to moving over the snow...and I stand by my quote above the only absolute is "it depends".

I personally think that if the instructor is good it doesn't much matter. But if you teach in hard boots....how do you show ankle flexion?

[BlueB]

But if you teach in hard boots....how do you show ankle flexion?

BTS !

[carvedog]

....how do you show ankle flexion?

I flex my ankles.

REally I get flex out of my hardboots. I have been know to leave the top two buckles undone. This helps me to line up my hips with the board too, to not show rotation to the front.

I have been through all the certs and examining too. People get much more out of a lesson with me - the old guy in hard boots - than they ever will with 90% of the soft booter instructors out there.

Part of the reason too, is to maximize my carve time while at the hill.

[Beckmann AG]

I felt this topic was just boiling down to another soft boot vs. hardboot debate and was expressing that.

Indeed; and that would be a waste. (Debate of that nature, not your expression).

To say there are many absolutes implies there are absolute to moving over the snow...and I stand by my quote above the only absolute is "it depends".

As a starting point, I will refer you to this guy, I think his name is Newton, and he proposed a few laws governing motion...

Once you have defined the context of operation, you are then subject to the absolutes of human behavior pertaining to that context. These are known and quantifiable. After all, you are dealing with an electro-mechanical construct.

I will assume that when you teach an LTR, you introduce content in a particular sequence (based on the client and the prevailing conditions), as you know that sequence of events to be most effective. I think is is fair to say that this represents something of an absolute in teaching.

Many good teachers will say things that are not intended to be taken at face value, rather, they stand as concepts to ponder, to send their adherents off on greater intellectual quests. I never met Gordon Robbins, and would not presume to know the intent behind the statement that you are quoting, but I suspect he would be disappointed if you did not try to disprove his assertion.

But if you teach in hard boots....how do you show ankle flexion?

Well, how much ankle flexion is sufficient? Does it actually need to be visible to be effective? Is good snowboarding (at any level) defined by a series of codified movements in a set sequence, or rather by agility while in motion on a slick surface?

I personally think that if the instructor is good it doesn't much matter.

Good on ya, mate.

[Kent]

I think that's a bit harsh and unnecessary. In my experience, my equipment simply was not an issue in a beginner lesson, and the vast majority of my students successfully learned to ride the lift, link left and right turns repeatedly, control speed, and stop, after a 2 hour group lesson.

I dunno...

Imagine guitar lessons. You have (15) rippers who come into class wailing on their electric guitars like Jimi, yet the instructor is touting his Martin acoustic.

Same applies to snowboarding.

I feel the boots and board are tools are the trade. If you're going to teach effectively, you need to use what your students want to learn on....

Once again..just my opinion and it's nice for folks to disagree.

[trailertrash]

Kent,

We can discuss this hypothetically 'till we are all blue in the face. The fact is Beckman has been teaching in HB's professionally since a few days after they invented snow. (ok, almost! :) ) If it wasn't possible I doubt his employer would have kept him on so long.

john

[Kent]

And you can bring that up each time, but doesn't make it that much more effective.

Which brings up a point....how do you define a successful lesson? Does your ski school actually pay for performance? Do you ask your students for feedback? Do you leverage best practices? Do you seek feedback from peers? Do you know who the "best" snowboard instructor is at your school?

In my case, I haven't "taught" a public class in over a decade, but have coached. I define success by returning kids in the program, number of kids qualify for National Champs, number of National Champs, number who further their snowboarding beyond the team and qualitative feedback (from kids, parents and other coaches).

Once again, certainly not saying one way is better than another....but you simply can't improve what you can't measure. In the case of teaching with hardboots vs. teaching with softboots, make your own conclusion, esp if you don't have the data to support the argument.

[Jack M]

Which brings up a point....how do you define a successful lesson? Does your ski school actually pay for performance? Do you ask your students for feedback? Do you leverage best practices? Do you seek feedback from peers? Do you know who the "best" snowboard instructor is at your school?

...

Once again, certainly not saying one way is better than another....but you simply can't improve what you can't measure. In the case of teaching with hardboots vs. teaching with softboots, make your own conclusion, esp if you don't have the data to support the argument.

Just to be clear, I am only arguing about using hardboots while giving <i>beginner</i> lessons.

I measured my success by the number of people who successfully learned to link turns, control speed, stop, and have fun by the end of a 2 hour group lesson. By that measure, I was quite successful. (90%? 95%?) I didn't need the money or the free pass, I just wanted to give back to the sport and have fun. I wouldn't have continued teaching if I wasn't doing that. I returned for 4 years of teaching part time. I did it all in hardboots.

So I have the data to suggest that teaching in hardboots is not a problem. I don't think you have any data to suggest it is.

Let me ask you this Kent, right now at Sugarloaf there is a snowboarding instructor who is a woman who looks to be in her late 50s (gray hair) maybe older. She looks about as hip as anybody's mother. Should she not be allowed to teach beginner snowboarding to adolescent males?