Need some teaching advice from other hardboot snowboard instructors

[Sinecure]

This year I've taken a job teaching skiing (mostly) at Alpine Meadows in Tahoe. Teaching skiing is no problem for me. I have AT gear, but few students notice that it is different from their gear unless I break out the Dynafit bindings. What I'm wondering about is teaching snowboarding. It won't happen too often since I'll only be teaching snowboarding to beginners or helping if someone miraculously turns up and wants race/carve coaching help. But the supervisors now know that I can snowboard and that I'm willing to teach snowboarding. They like having bi instructors for times when we get a rush on snowboard school rather than ski school.

Today I shadowed a never-ever snowboard lesson and there was a lot of discussion and distraction caused by my board/boot setup. Obviously it is easy for me to explain and demonstrate the skills necessary in the basic snowboard lessons. But I'm wondering about some stuff. First, when you teach in hardboots, how do you deal quickly with an explanation of why your hardboot gear looks so different? And how do you minimize any skepticism on the students' part that they can't do what you're doing because their equipment is different? I don't want to try to convert them, but I don't want the equipment/appearance difference to get in the way of teaching them.

Also, are there things I should be thinking, doing or emphasizing in my demonstrations that will help ensure that I'm showing skills in a way that the visually oriented students will relate to?

I find my hard boots much more comfortable and easier to ride in than rental softies so I'm reluctant to "suck it up" and just use a rental setup.

Also, are there things I should be aware of as I start working on AASI Level 1 cert?

I had my board and boots in the locker room today and some of the other instructors were very curious and interested in trying it out. I'm looking forward to that.

[kinpa]

Ok, so I've been teaching since 1990 or so... started off mostly teaching skiing, as there were plenty of young guys even back then who only snowboarded and I did both. It wasn't until about 1995 after I passed my Level II cert that I did more snowboarding. Back then, it was still under PSIA (no AASI yet) and was still very alpine/carve oriented. AASI was developed out of a need for freestyle.... many snowboarders at that time didn't like being under PSIA and it's Alpine focus. Some of the Examiners and higherups left teaching and some adjusted to soft-boot gear and went with the flow. (I was still in the Eastern Division until about 2000 or so, now I'm in Northern Rocky Mountain)

So, there were a few times in my teaching career that it was pushed on me to be in soft gear. I did try.... I loved my little F2 Elimator boarderX board and taught on that for many years in a Burton SI system. I like step-ins so it's easy to get in any out..... seems like I'm ALWAYS in and out while teaching beginner lessons.

Over the years now, I've taught at 4 different mountain in the east, and now onto my second ski area in Montana. Each ski school and ski school director seems to have his/her own feelings about stuff like that. I think there was a thread on here last year about someone being forced to teach in soft boots?

I don't feel that it happens very often that I get asked about my gear from students. If they even notice, they don't usually ask. I get more questions about the step-ins than about the hard boots. I do try to teach on an all-mountain board with lower angles, but I have taught on my slalom board too.

Just watch that you don't get taken for granted at being "BI" (as you put it). I try to find about well before lineup what gear I should be in. Luckily right now, it's not to far to run back from the ski school meeting place to the locker room, but at one mountain (Camelback in the Poconos, PA), the treck was pretty far and it happened more than once.... "Hurry up and go change, your students are waiting!" UGH!!!

As far as AASI level I cert, there are optional freestyle stuff that can be included, but it is slightly different for each division. I know it can be done by guys on alpine gear because I've seen it. That's what really impresses me most.... someone who can do it all on one board. I can, and have, ridden switch on my Oxygen Proton, but I wouldn't say I'm very smooth at it. You should be able to go on the division's webiste and see what the required moves are for the different levels.

Right now I guess I'm in a good place. My boss (ski school director) needs me and I don't think he really cares if I teach in hard boots. I do try to keep one board in the locker room available for any instructor who wants to try it. Most of the snowboarders seem to want to, but when it comes right down to it, they don't. I think they are afraid!

Kathy

[NMU Alpine Boarder]

I have yet to teach in hardboots. I do teach on a 167 Volkl Cross with Burton C60s however... My gear definitely looks different than the typical setup seen on the hill, and it really hasn't ever been a big ordeal... I don't think it would complicate a beginner lesson if I did go all the way to a full carve setup...

When I teach my lessons, I explain that the beginner progression is a set of skills that is applied to every aspect snowboarding from that day onward... I'll cite that I used the principals when racing SBX and GS... I also explain how some of the skills are applied to freestyle as well... These include being relaxed when on the board, initiating movements with the lower body, and the basic concepts of how a snowboard turns... It seems to get the students attention when I mention that I still work on these fundamental aspects...

From here, you can get the students to focus on certain aspects away from the boots and bindings... Make it a point to have the student look at your hands or shoulders... If you need to do something from the knees down, stress that the movements are the same (for the basic skidded turn)... Make sure you are spot on in your demonstrations, and make them look like you are in softies... It might not be fundamentally correct for hardboots, but that is a secret that can be kept for a few hours ;)

[BlueB]

I think there was a thread on here last year about someone being forced to teach in soft boots?

Hey, that was me - the banned hardboot instructor... I had to put up with softies nonsense for 2 years (after successfully teaching on HBs for a year before that). This year the tide has changed a bit and I'm back on HBs, but not without friction with the Boss.

My story is almost the same - thouth the skiing for couple of years, then got mostly into snowboard teaching. Still teach ski when there's demand. Below is my 0.02 CAD...

Boots, get something that works well for both ski and snowboard. You seem to have that part already sorted out... Softer is better, or you can always ride in walk mode when teaching begginers.

Board, get something really wide (in alpine terms) and with rounded tail and not too much camber. BX boards work great, or really wide AM boards. This year I settled down for Stepwater Steep 164. At 24.5 waist, it works great for the angles I want to ride when teaching. It has huge SCR and is pretty stiff, so when I want to go for it, it would still carve almost like an alpine board.

Bindings, floppier the better - Raceplates, Blax, Proflex, F2 freecarve, Fritchi... Snowpros are already on the upper end of acceptable stifness. Ride the lowest angles you can make work. Lots of splay helps too. I think I'm somewhere like 30/10 or 30/15 (which are pretty much the angles I like riding on softies). Overhang is not a problem, as you won't really be laying it over. Or, add risers under the bindings (I did).

As far as the riding goes, be prepared to dumb it down a lot. Ballance at low speed is the key, as well as being able to perform very subtle movements with your lower legs/feet (the setup is still way more responsive then softies, so overdoing it may result in eating it).

Learn to ride switch really well. Carving switch is a great tool to keep the mouts of your softbooting collegues and bosses shut ;) Moguls are fun too. Superpipe, hell yes! Rails, no thanks.

Newbies hardly ever notice the different boots. They are too busy truing to survive their first attempts of snowboarding to have time to worry about your boots. Sometimes they do notice the different bindings. Mostly they'll envy your ease and speed in and out vs. them sitting around fidlling with the straps. When they do notice the boot/binding difference and ask, I try to explain nicely and give pros and cons of HBs.

The biggest difference would be if you tried to ride too high stance angles, as your boddy would be aligned to the bindings, not to the board like theirs. If your stance is slightly too high, you might want to cheat just slightly and align the shoulders just in between the binding angles and board axis. This is a slippery slope, as it is NOT really by the book (balanced, natural body position). Emphasize all the movements on the vertical axis, to get it in their minds, as well as all rotational moves. You can also use your hands a lot to mimic what your feet are doing. I do it while explaining and while demonstrating too!

I also keep few spare alpine setups at our shed, for other instructors to try, but hardly anyone ever does...

Have fun!

[kinpa]

AASI talks about the "reference alignments" a lot.... so, keep your angles low, if you can, keep your hips over your knees and your knees over your toes. I don't have a problem doing it while I'm teaching, but it's harder for me on that ocassional freeride before or in between lessons. Then I KNOW my alignment is off because I want to ride it like the other board with the steeper angles. I have to constantly remind myself to keep my back hand and shoulder back. Sometimes I try to ride with my back hand behind my back to remind me I'm on lower angles. Sheesh..... such a creature of habit....

[Dave ESPI]

PSIA is all about the rhetoric and "Pro Knowledge". AASI will be looking for you to know the core values and the level 1 instructor manual and the book that you get. Read it, familiarize yourself with the exact phrasing and termanology in it. If U can ride well, and are exemplary in your technique, you will have no problems with it at all. They really want to see that you understand the conceptual models and can teach with a comfortable level of instruction and pace of actions.

If you do it in hardboots and an alpine stance, you will need good form and also they will want to see not only bowing of the board, but rocking fore/aft with body motions aswell as ankle based and knee/ upperbody based carves.

....and no.... your cant just pass level 1 with a pulse and a board strapped to your feet as someone had suggested elsewhere... :rolleyes:

Earn it, and excel at doing it.

ps: riding/ carving "fakie" and tossing 180s off little rollers and nose/tail butters will impress the hell outa the frestyle softbooters and the ASSI Examiner ;)

In my teaching experiences when in a HB setup, I simply say to the students this phrase:

"Today we are learning to snowboard. Keep in mind that there are various styles and a multitude of equipment we can use. While my gear is different in appearance, the body motions and techniques are equal across all snowboarders. Everyone is here to learn for various reasons and have personal ultimate goals. Where there are some people who are "parkers" and do tricks, and "freestyle" and "All Mountain Freeride" people who just go out to ride around, I am on the other end of the 3 diciplines of snowboarding spectrum: I go fast in one direction and epitimise the elegant grace of railing turns and "carves" in the snow. To do anything advanced, we all must begin at the same basic level, and that is what brings us all here today"....

Or something to that effect.

I've had a lot of awesome lessons and even had people come up to me and say " I NEVER KNEW SNOWBOARDING COULD LOOK SO AWESOME! I WANT TO LEARN TO RIDE LIKE THAT!" and take a lesson.

That to me, is the greatest compliment as a teacher, and if we can instill that in people to want to snowboard, its GRAVY for us Hardbooters reputations :)

[Keenan]

When teaching beginners I would usually ride with my top 2 buckles undone. Often I would never buckle my back foot in, not only would it make skidding a little easier, it also added a little challenge to the beginner slope that you are spending all day on. I never mentioned my equipment unless asked, beginners are overwhelmed enough as it is. One thing I found myself doing frequently was changing binding angles for crossover skiers. The 10-15 degree front foot caused a lot of pain and suffering to those with older knees. The rental shop did not appreciate this, but I figured it added a little excitement to their mundane jobs. I also would explain that skiers are set with their bindings, whereas snowboarders need to experiment until they find the stance/angles that feels right. - Good Luck!

[kinpa]

I also would explain that skiers are set with their bindings, whereas snowboarders need to experiment until they find the stance/angles that feels right. - Good Luck!

I think some of the newer ski bindings are more adustable fore/aft now too, but of course, MANY more adjustments on snowboard bindings.

[Sinecure]

Thanks for the tips guys.

[Kent]

Somebody has to say it.....

Suck it up.

If the students are in softies, you should be on softies..along with a standard stance position.

Just my 2 cents, mostly for the reasons already given.

I will agree my hard set-up is more comfy and easier to use (step ins). But it just isn't the best learning experience for the student. Sorry.

[kinpa]

Kent, if your students are goofy and you are regular do you switch just the leash around and ride it backward? Or do you actually changed the bindings around so you are riding like they are?

I'm not so great at riding switch, but I am getting better. I just can't image going up the rope tow with my other foot forward though. It's hard enough as it is already.

[CARV-NY]

I keep one board specifically for teaching it's a shorter board for me 155 and it's wide and the bindings are equal length from the nose as the tail and they are only set at 10 positive(front) and 10 negative (rear) that way if my class is mostly regular (I'm goofy) I can easily switch my stance and ride just as comfortably switch so I'm on as close of a setup to their's as I can be. Plus after spending some time teaching on the beginner hill I learned that you don't wanna teach on a board you care about and don't want scratched etc. I don't care what happens to that board so I just use it as a teaching board.

[BlueB]

There shouldn't be any sucking up... As long as it is called snowboarding and instructor associations do not clearly ban it (in writing), hard boots should be perfectly legitimate option. First thing I learned about snowboarding is that the stance is very individual thing and there was no "right" one for everyone. I happen to ride 30/10 on softies. Should I make it duck, just because the rental shops sets the boards like that as default? It would result in poor riding on my behalf and potential injury. Now, if we can agree that my softy stance is acceptable for teaching, what makes it so different if rode the same angles with hard boots? My feet would stay dry and warm and ankles safe, plus I'm 3-5x faster in and out of my bindings... Last time I checked, discrimination based on visual appearance differences was against the law in both of our countries.

[Dave ESPI]

I have to re-chime-in here behind Blue B and and agree.

WHile I have 10+ snowboards, at any given time i can pull one off the wall and they will all have almost identiacal "agressive" alpine stances with forward directional facing bindings. I have one board that is ducked stance, and it is my 121 MINI and is purely a "funtoy". I can teach just as well on a 121 as on a 177, despite what the stance and angle and boots are.

It really just comes down to being a good teacher. Everyone learns in different ways, It is up to us to find that way and give the best comparative examples and teach them based upon things they already know and tap into each individuals skill sets that are pre-existing to be successful in their learning to be a snowboarder.

[Beckmann AG]

I think the last time I taught a 'learn to ride' in softboots, I was on a Performer Elite 150, with a pair of 70s vintage Sorels. I have taught a very large number since then, on the 'wrong' equipment.

I used to ponder the effect of my equipment choice on the learning process, and soon realized that it really had no bearing on what the guest was doing, or what they were capable of doing. Correct information at the right time in the right sequence was, and is, far more important.

how do you deal quickly with an explanation of why your hardboot gear looks so different?

The answer to this question will depend on your audience, but I will often say something to the effect of, "I have a Ducati, and what you have there is a Moped."

Alternatives: I have a D-cell, and you have a AAA.

You have a Schwinn Varsity, and I have a Colnago C-40.

The idea is that each piece of equipment has different capabilities, in terms of handling and/or energy storage/retrieval. Throttle response is a distinct liability for a novice driver, so too for the beginning rider.

In other words, "We are each on equipment appropriate for our respective abilities and needs."

how do you minimize any skepticism on the students' part that they can't do what you're doing because their equipment is different?

By the time the guest begins to hobble around with a slippery object attached to their foot, their concerns and anxieties will tend to focus inward. You could be wearing white after Labor day, and they wouldn't notice.

Also, are there things I should be thinking, doing or emphasizing in my demonstrations that will help ensure that I'm showing skills in a way that the visually oriented students will relate to?

As far as demonstrating is concerned, good posture is good posture. Too often instructors get caught up in how body positions influence outcomes. Good posture/positions should be regarded as the byproduct of good outcomes, not the other way around.

The posture/movements in use should be somewhat proportional to the task at hand.

A beginning rider should not need to make obvious or large movements in order to execute most elementary maneuvers on a gradual pitch. Most of the movements required should be almost invisible. To pretend or demonstrate otherwise is misleading.

If large movements are necessary to, say, sideslip, stop, sideslip, then there is something wrong with the boot/binding/board configuration.

As far as visual learners are concerned, if they see that you are not doing much to direct your board, they will take note and act accordingly.

If you analogize the process of learning to snowboard to that of learning to walk, (which is to say obtaining functional equilibrium while in motion) you might consider that many parents do not actually demonstrate to their toddlers how to move around on their feet. Remaining upright is a process that is hardwired; given the opportunity, the body will determine the most effective way to accomplish this task regardless of context.

The hazard for the visual learner is that the most obvious visual cues are not always the movements that should be modeled.

In short, if you are providing accurate information in the proper sequence in a way that your client can use it, you can be effective with a pair of swim fins on your feet. Properly waxed, of course.

[mackDan]

If the students are in softies, you should be on softies..along with a standard stance position.

I completely disagree. I don't teach, but my very first snowboard lesson was taught by a guy in hard boots. And after one or two questions about his gear and our gear differences, he got us focused on trying to turn the board, and after that we forgot all about equipment.

Snowboarding, in soft boots or in hard boots, is about riding with both your feet attached on one board (different from skis) and is about riding with a leading foot and a trailing foot (essentially sideways). While there are subtleties between soft boots and hard boot equipment, the basics are the same, and that's what you are teaching.

And you can (IMO) teach most everything about snowboarding with either type of rig, including carving and fakie riding. But some of that is either more difficult or less effective with the "wrong" gear.

[dingbat]

I've found hardboots easier and more effective to teach in because students can see the toe or heel lift caused by various body movements more clearly and because I can quickly step in to my bindings to demonstrate and then out again if someone needs their hands held. I do twist my hips toward being parallel to the board like their's though. It's nothing more than a gut feeling, but I think I get better results on hardboots than softies.

To answer questions about the difference in my setup I explain that my gear works exactly the same as theirs, but is built stiffer to handle higher speeds and g-forces and it's actualy easier do what we're doing on the gear they are using. The two occasions that a student made an issue out of being taught by someone on different gear, both times it was brought up 3/4 of the way through the lesson by the guy with a crushed ego looking for an excuse for why he couldn't ride like a superstar after the first 45 min. in his life on snow. The same guy who doesn't listen to a thing you say or watch a thing you do and then points it straight down the hill and rockets out of control every time it's his turn to get up and try something.

[Rob Stevens]

I think the last time I taught a 'learn to ride' in softboots, I was on a Performer Elite 150, with a pair of 70s vintage Sorels. I have taught a very large number since then, on the 'wrong' equipment.

I used to ponder the effect of my equipment choice on the learning process, and soon realized that it really had no bearing on what the guest was doing, or what they were capable of doing. Correct information at the right time in the right sequence was, and is, far more important.

The answer to this question will depend on your audience, but I will often say something to the effect of, "I have a Ducati, and what you have there is a Moped."

Alternatives: I have a D-cell, and you have a AAA.

You have a Schwinn Varsity, and I have a Colnago C-40.

The idea is that each piece of equipment has different capabilities, in terms of handling and/or energy storage/retrieval. Throttle response is a distinct liability for a novice driver, so too for the beginning rider.

In other words, "We are each on equipment appropriate for our respective abilities and needs."

By the time the guest begins to hobble around with a slippery object attached to their foot, their concerns and anxieties will tend to focus inward. You could be wearing white after Labor day, and they wouldn't notice.

As far as demonstrating is concerned, good posture is good posture. Too often instructors get caught up in how body positions influence outcomes. Good posture/positions should be regarded as the byproduct of good outcomes, not the other way around.

The posture/movements in use should be somewhat proportional to the task at hand.

A beginning rider should not need to make obvious or large movements in order to execute most elementary maneuvers on a gradual pitch. Most of the movements required should be almost invisible. To pretend or demonstrate otherwise is misleading.

If large movements are necessary to, say, sideslip, stop, sideslip, then there is something wrong with the boot/binding/board configuration.

As far as visual learners are concerned, if they see that you are not doing much to direct your board, they will take note and act accordingly.

If you analogize the process of learning to snowboard to that of learning to walk, (which is to say obtaining functional equilibrium while in motion) you might consider that many parents do not actually demonstrate to their toddlers how to move around on their feet. Remaining upright is a process that is hardwired; given the opportunity, the body will determine the most effective way to accomplish this task regardless of context.

The hazard for the visual learner is that the most obvious visual cues are not always the movements that should be modeled.

In short, if you are providing accurate information in the proper sequence in a way that your client can use it, you can be effective with a pair of swim fins on your feet. Properly waxed, of course.

As President of CASI, I say "Solid".

My one caveat is that if you have higher angles, you could drop them to what Blue B is running.

I do agree that the students experience isn't really affected by your alignment to the binders, but if it's close to their stance, there will be no questions about you vs. them.

[Kent]

Kent, if your students are goofy and you are regular do you switch just the leash around and ride it backward? Or do you actually changed the bindings around so you are riding like they are?

I'm not so great at riding switch, but I am getting better. I just can't image going up the rope tow with my other foot forward though. It's hard enough as it is already.

Depends on the class. If a group class with mixed riders..I'll ride regular stance. If a private lesson and they are ponying up $, then I'll ride however they want to ride.

This thread suprises me. Guys..the war is over and soft boots have won. Let it go. The bravado is nice "hey, I can ride switch and do a 360 in my hardboots". Big ****ing deal.

I understand why people would want to teach in hardboots (comfort/ease of entry/etc) but don't understand why people do it to promote hardboots or their own agenda. Give it a rest..it's not a sales job, you're teaching snowboarding. The 1st thing Joey Parkboarder is going to think is "dude, the instructor is lame and wearing ski boots".

[BlueB]

Assuming that Joey the Parkrat is really that (he can ride already and wants to learn to ride the park), he wouldn't even be with me. He would be assigned to a park certified instructor. Otherwise, if Joey can not even ride yet, he is Joey the Begginer... In this case my footware should be the last of his concerns.

I do not quite understand where the sentiment "hardboots are the devil" comes from, or the idea that exposure to various options (in any discipline) is detrimental for one's developmnet as a person or a sportsmen.

[Kent]

It's beating a dead horse....

If you're convinced it's the most effective way to teach, then go nuts.

I did for most of the 90s, but have since changed my mind on the subject.

There is quite a bit more history...PSIA, AASI, Demo Team, Examiner Courses, blah, blah.

Regardless, have fun.

[Jack M]

I understand why people would want to teach in hardboots (comfort/ease of entry/etc) but don't understand why people do it to promote hardboots or their own agenda.

I can't imagine anyone teaching in hardboots for the primary purpose of promoting them. When I was teaching, working for Erik, I taught in hardboots for one real reason: in order to maximize my own carving time during off-hours (early morning, lunch, late pm) and that was that. The fact that I was putting hardboots in front of newbies was a nice bonus. I taught hundreds of newbies over 4 seasons and my equipment was never -never- an issue. (granted it was still visible in the Burton catalog... not sure if that matters)

The 1st thing Joey Parkboarder is going to think is "dude, the instructor is lame and wearing ski boots".

I disagree in a beginner lesson. Erik has it right, once the student gets their first big helping of humble pie and gets their ass handed to them by the cool softboot equipment they're on, the focus turns inward and attitudes and egos disappear real fast.

[BigBump]

Jack,

Isn't the purpose of an instructor to keep a beginner from getting their ass handed to them?

Also, arguing about teaching technique is pointless, IMO, because a wise man by the name of Gordon Robbins once told me "The only 100% answer to any question regarding teching is 'It depends........' ".

And to that, I'll add my opinion....when I was riding hardboots exclusively, I used to teach in them. I stopped only because I found my softboots to be far more comfortable!

[Kent]

in order to maximize my own carving time during off-hours

True..another good point.

once the student gets their first big helping of humble pie and gets their ass handed to them by the cool softboot equipment

I think that kinda supports my position. At the time I was instructing 20 hours a week, I was also working at a shop 20 hours a week (in addition to my FT job), there is certainly a gap b/w the advice that is requested from a store and that requested from an instructor. Just my opinion. Perhaps in a Level II or III class it might be a topic of discussion and would be worth of a hard boot demonstration, but in a Level I class where all students are riding softies...I'll stand firm. :) I'd go so far as to require it if I were in charge of the ski/snowboard school.

[kinpa]

If a private lesson and they are ponying up $, then I'll ride however they want to ride.

This thread suprises me. Guys..the war is over and soft boots have won.

I guess my problem is that I work at a smaller area and dont make any big bucks.... even with privates.... If someone was specific about wanting a freestyle type lesson, I'd be more than happy to pass that off to someone more suitable for it, although I'm sure my ski school director knows that already.

As far as comfort, my hard boots are WAY more comfortable that my soft boots were. I've got a flat foot and really need the support. In the soft boots either my bone spurs would hit something causeing a shooting pain (like a funny bone kind of thing!), or the ball of my foot would totally cramp up and all my toes would go numb. Anyway, I'm much happier in my hard boots.

Surprised about this thread? I'll have to reread the initial post, but I don't think he was really asking, "Should I teach in hard boots or soft boots?" Stick with what works better for yourself unless it becomes a real problem which I haven't seen happen yet in all the years I've been doing it.