Great soft booter with big feet.

[bobdea]

dave, I'm confident that I've put in more miles on good, bad and terrible equipment than you. just based on your statements in the last couple years.

I don't know it all, I eat crow all the time on this forum. the thing is, you don't. you keep it up when called on it and proven wrong.

in palmers early years? uhhh, as far as I can find still not riding your stance here's a pic

in a IM conversation another member called you the new maciek, that's wrong, you're worse.

the fact that you had cateks on a beer board is funny too. like putting a spoiler on a golf cart.

[Dave ESPI]

Typing text is cheap.

....and you really are an eletist asshatt.

See you at the bottom of the mountain hommie, I will leave a nice crisp trail for you to follow behind me.

It isnt about being right and wrong or perfect technique or "package deals" with ultimate equipment. Its about enjoying what you have and sharing experiences knowledge and information. To some it may be bunk, or nonsensical, but to others, it may also be valuable as it is not the "norm" as a socially accepted "truth" that so many people seem to need to lump into as the gospel of "carving".

SO I'm just going to step down off the anti-soap box and leave it at the point where I too have no qualms about admitting when I am bested, or trumped and I have a flock of my own blackbirds to crow with as well on occasion.

PS: If you hate this board you will love a lot of my others :rolleyes:

[bobdea]

notice how you dodge the question and just call me a elitist then go on about how it's not about being right or wrong WHEN YOU OFFERED SPECIFIC ADVICE ON A RIDER'S STANCE.

if you have to ride a stance like that you have the wrong board

I have a mike's hard lemonade board I'll sell you, seriously, never ridden. heard it's almost as good as the coors light models.

[Dave ESPI]

fine, you want to push the issue, here douche, this is from 2009

TWOOOOO THOUUSANNDDD NIINNEEEEEE.....

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/oE_IyAy06Q6/FIS+Snowboard+World+Cup+Day+1/jTMLRtw44kO/Shaun+Palmer

Shaun Palmer of the USA competes during the finals for the FIS Snowboard-Cross World Cup on February 13, 2009 at Cypress Mountain in West Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. (Photo by Jed Jacobsohn/Getty Images) *** Local Caption *** Shaun Palmer <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

(<SCRIPT type=text/javascript>document.write(localMDY('February 14, 2009 00:00'));</SCRIPT> February 14, 2009<NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> - Photo by Jed Jacobsohn/Getty Images North America)

May not be

"exactly" 38/25 but it is still forward stance..... next time he is flying thru the air I will be sure to ask him if he would care to comment about this thread....

sheesh.

BUNK.

[bobdea]

dude, how the hell can you tell from that pic, it's a side view?

Phil already pointed out that you were off the mark and he's prepped the guy's boards.

I posted multiple pics based on your info you were saying early in his career and so on

now you post this

like I said I ride forward forward too, most people don't specifically most pros I have seen.

there's a world of difference between running 38-25 and running 21-9 or 15-5.

I'm actually in between but both of us are well outside of what works for MOST people, pros included.

this is besides the point anyway

sorry OP, just don't let ESPI put any ideas in your head

[Dave ESPI]

SOrry bob, its an open forum, and you called me out, and I went a step better and posted a pic that was from last season let alone the last 15 years..... If you want to split hairs about it, thats fine but this is moot.

ONE

LAST

TIME....

I RIDE THOSE ANGLES. I WAS INFLUENCED YEARS AGO BY SUCH AND IT IS WHAT I LIKE TO RIDE.

IT WORKS FOR ME, AND IS MY PREFERANCE TO GEAR, ANGLES, BOOTS, AND STYLE.

ok?

Done .

[bobdea]

that's fine but you tried to use shaun palmer to say it's for everyone

you found the one picture it would be impossible to guess what his angles are and posted it.

I posted two, one from WAY back and one from the 90s disputing what you were saying both of which were clearly showing low angles.

you post a friggin side view

just don't offer that type of advice.

also, what you're riding is so dated that your opinion is probably skewed anyway.

[Dave ESPI]

also, what you're riding is so dated that your opinion is probably skewed anyway.

yeah.... unlike the other 9 boards I have..... but whatever.

[LeGogoussier]

Top view, at Valamenco, Italy, March 2009

as seen here: http://www.aktaes.com/blog/2009/03/

[bobdea]

that is certainly not that far forward

looks like the rear is MAYBE 5 or 10 forward

still hard to tell though

not even close to 38-25

looks like from 3 to 10 in the back

regardless, the kid needs something wide enough so he does not need doobie dave's angles

I suggest calling bola at all board sports he will get you a nice wide kessler

[BlueB]

I didn't spend too much time to make it 100% accurate, but there is a scientific method to establish the angles from skew photos:

1) Draw the perspective lines and the lines you wanted to measure

2) Flatten the perspective until the perspective lines and object (snowboard) axis are perpendicular and object looks of the right shape

3) Measure the angles

Verdict: ~25/10 angles.

Case closed.

[bobdea]

praise the ****ing lord!

thanks boris

actually about the angles I ride

[chrisc]

While I appreciate the resolution, this debate certainly shows that this sport does not follow absolutes at this point. From angles to equipment, the person riding is the biggest determining factor of an outcome.

I appreciated the debate, though it looked like a flame war about to erupt at any moment. Well, actually it did.

Dave, those are some extreme angles, but nobody can deny that they work for you, you have proven that. I have always said given that right pair of boots and bindings, you should be able to ride a wood plank to the bottom.

I am looking into the Nidecker for SL still. The Kessler did not pan out (no reply). The Nidecker Race SL is a modern design and construction, Carbon, Kevlar, with Metal and is as wide/wider other SL boards. But it might be too stiff.

Still looking to Kessler, maybe Coiler, SG for GS.

In BX I am still undecided. Might stay with the Crown riding a different stance with a better wax set up.

Nothing in this discipline is absolute....Well Winning…:)

[philfell]

For Kesslers you will need to go through Bola at All Boards Sports. Going directly through Kessler will probably get you no where. That guy is so busy that unless you are on the world cup you probably won't get a decent reply and things will be very frustrating.

Educating about wax and board prep is important, but remember that it's all about the riding.

Yes there are no absolutes, but Palmers stance is typical of what you would see at an SBX World Cup, yes there are exceptions, but not many. I would suggest you start close to what he is riding and go from there. Also pay attention to stance width. My guess is that since your son is also a park rider and used to riding duck his stance may be too wide. I can't say for sure from here, but it's a hunch.

And the banter that was going back and forth was awesome to witness.

[Dave ESPI]

No worries Chris, Just play with angles, you may find riding a 30+cm weist tobaggan AKA WIDE board at around 25/10 to feel slugish like a barrel roll in a 747 versus a 25.5 cm with 32/26 and be able to turn like a raptor in high alpha attack.

LeG, thankyou for your effort to get a more precise measurement. One comment I can make, is that if you look at the picture, he risk booting out bigtime with toe overhang on that rear foot. Anythimg less than a perfect race course, he will experience major drag. Saving grace is perhaps if he is using riser plates, but that only works so far before contact with the ground happens and dumps him in a high tilt/angle carve for GS as his pic was in a BX race.

Bob, YOU WIN.

old saying "Don't argue with an idiot and expect to win a rational debate, they will only drop you to their level and beat you with the homefield advantage".

Bring your A-game to a slope this season, and we will see what works and what doesn't there numbnuts...

[BlueB]

Dave, you can not judge the toe overhang from that pic. Flattened perspective works only at the plan of the object (snowboard). At the toes you still read the imagery of the pic as taken, even made worse by flattening of the snowboard. Just like the legs look very thin and go forward diagonally, while they should be pointing straight to the observer, if I magically could undo the perspective of ALL objects on the pic.

What I'm trying to say is that his toe overhang is probably no bigger then the heel overhang of the same boot. However, I have no means of showing that on the simple Photoshop render.

[Dave ESPI]

Blue I agree. I was refering to the stock un-adjusted image, but again based on the angle of the pic it is indeed tough to really be certain as its shear speculation (much as the debate in this thread anyway) about the amount of clearance.

No worries :)

[bobdea]

who suggested a 30 cm wide deck?

most "wide" boards are between 265 to 275 width

[Dave ESPI]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Ability Level</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Intermediate - Advanced</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Core Material</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Wood/Carbon </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Dims: Tip</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">311mm (158), 314mm (161), 316mm (164), 318mm (167)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Dims: Waist</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">262mm (158), 265mm (161), 266mm (164), 269mm (167)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Dims: Tail</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">310mm (158), 313mm (161), 315mm (164), 317mm (167)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Effective Edge</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">1243mm (158), 1269mm (161), 1244mm (164), 1320mm (167)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Rider Weight</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">140-230lbs (158), 160+lbs (161, 164, 167)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Rocker Type</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Camber</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Sidecut Radius</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">7.7m (158), 7.9m (161), 8.1m (164), 8.3m (167)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Stance</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">21in (158)(161), 22in (164)(167)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Width</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Wide</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

versus:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Ability Level</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Intermediate - Advanced</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Core Material</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Wood/ Carbon</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Dims: Tip</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">291mm (150), 293mm (153), 295mm (156), 298mm (159), 301mm (162)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Dims: Waist</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">245mm (150), 246mm (153), 247mm (156), 249mm (159), 311mm (162)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Dims: Tail</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">289.9mm (150), 292.4mm (153), 244.1mm (156), 297mm (159), 299.7mm (162)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Effective Edge</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">1167.6mm (150), 1193mm (153), 1218.4mm (156), 1243.8mm (159), 1269.2mm (162)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Rider Weight</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">120-190lbs (150), 120-200lbs (153)(156), 130-210lbs (159), 160+lbs (162)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Rocker Type</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Camber</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Sidecut Radius</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">7.2m (150), 7.3m (153), 7.5cm (156), 7.7m (159), 7.9m (162)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Stance</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">21in.</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" vAlign=top width="25%">Width</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #cccccc 1px solid" width="75%">Regular</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

uh, nothing for nothing..... but "Wide" as listed between these 2 boards of identical make is NOT going to solve the overhang or justify angles less than 20 in the front or rear foot with a size 13 boot and not have toedrag.

Go ahead and push my button on this one Bobbie..... because I personaly own these 2 boards that I laid them on my floor and did a side by side demonstration without a shadow of a doubt and that I know what I'm talking about.

so please, go jump out of a helicopter and do some "extreme hardcore riding" or whatever it is u do.....

[philfell]

LeG, thankyou for your effort to get a more precise measurement. One comment I can make, is that if you look at the picture, he risk booting out bigtime with toe overhang on that rear foot. Anythimg less than a perfect race course, he will experience major drag. Saving grace is perhaps if he is using riser plates, but that only works so far before contact with the ground happens and dumps him in a high tilt/angle carve for GS as his pic was in a BX race.

Well I guess Palmer does not know how to set up his board properly and you know more about what's good for his set up then you.

First it's SBX, you should be riding that high of an edge angle. If you are you are not going to be on the podium. Second Palmer knows what he's doing. At the last World Cup he was the second fastest US guy in qualifing.

Please translate you last sentense?? Are you saying that when you boot out it puts you into a "high tilt/angle carve"????

Yes in PGS you would want a different set up. Not one tool works for all. But this thread shifted to SBX set ups. And you were proven wrong on your assesment of Palmers set up, then you go and say it isn't good. And state it's bad for GS....Well of course it's bad for GS, it's SBX. A good GS stance will be bad for SBX.

Dude you need to know when to say enough is enough and stop digging your self a deeper hole.

[ncermak]

I know I'm a little late to chime in here, but as a coach, I would go to a GS board for the hardboot setup and therefore for GS, and rock softies on Slalom to get someone started, with the BX Board. The soft boot set up will be shorter and easier to make the short radius turns of a slalom.

P.S. - Dave and Bob - Settle it on a racecourse this winter: www.ridemass.org !!!

[Dave ESPI]

Ncermak, I agree. Get him to show up and It would make for an interesting day. I harbor no ill will or animoscity, Just have a difference of opinion that would like to be ironed out. I'm not a fan of "Threadsh*ting", so I digress.

Phill, I am in no way dissing the abilities of S.P. amd I feel he is indeed worthy of his self proclaimed title, or that of those who set up the board for him in the BX picture (and obviously it is SNOWBOARDING BOARDER CROSS and to call it SBX unless it is side by side racing slalom boarder cross?) seems silly in a thread talking about it. IDK.

"Toes and heel as close to the edge pressure points as possible; with (whatever) angle necessary to do such" is an industry standard understanding is it not? why would someone want to ride a board and run low angles and risk the boot-out or rear trailng toe becomming a snow brake?

I was jabbing ya in the ribs (sorry, was trying to lighten the mood a bit) about the big feet and stance in the pic and yet also what I was saying is that there reaches a point in getting up on edge with a board and low angles(and big feet) that the toes touch the snow with overhang and can cause wash/boot out or drag slowing a person down depending on how hard of a carved turn they make and that also depends on the kind of snow/ice they are in/on. Having personaly fell victim to this many times, it is part of what made me facilitate higher angles and learning to ride such in a way that it gives me what to some apparently is "off the wall" stance advice.

I fully respect and admire the fact you have first hand experience with this on a pro level, and am sorry if I come across as arrogant about S.P.'s, set up as I do not wish to belittle the teamwork that goes into such. What works for some is not the answer for all. Obviously it works for S.P. but keeping an OPEN DISCUSSION is what makes the BOL forum so great IMHO.

No worries,

D.

In the words of Walter from the Big Lebowski... "Fu*k it dude, lets go bowling".

[bobdea]

Dave, a cm of width is a huge difference

I can't deal with anything less than 265 and am happiest right about 270 with 28.5 boot.

with a 28 cm wide board someone riding in 30 or 31 mondo softboot should be alright. last I checked (excluding banana hammocks) the widest production board available was 29 cm wide, that board had some weird geometry though. some odd stuff going on with the tips and sidecut.

I still don't get what you're on about, some overhang is fine as long as you don't have a ton of it. you don't need to tip softy setups all that high to get pretty much all the carve you need out of them.

if I can find another softboot ride to my liking, I'll ride softboots in a race even. know anyone with 170ish wide ride? skunk ape or something? I'll let you ride one of your rossi beer boards or whatever...

http://community.burton.com/forums/thread/376366.aspx that's the big list of wide boards

[chrisc]

Interesting.

I do not know when it became the industry standard to keep “Toes and heel as close to the edge pressure points as possible; with (whatever) angle necessary to do such”. I fought hard to get people to understand this on the newsgroups. It is why when riding low angles, such as many freestyle riders do, you will have some boot overhang.

I see two extremes being discussed here. Very large angles v.s. very wide boards. I would find it very enlightening to watch both types of riders on course. Just an assumption, but I think we would see riders using largely cross under in one camp, and cross over in the other. Obviously a highbred of them into cross through for speed.

The riders are adamant about their positions because they are experiencing real world results for their particular style. I imagine both have trophies and medals.

[bobdea]

Interesting.

I do not know when it became the industry standard to keep “Toes and heel as close to the edge pressure points as possible; with (whatever) angle necessary to do such”. I fought hard to get people to understand this on the newsgroups. It is why when riding low angles, such as many freestyle riders do, you will have some boot overhang.

I see two extremes being discussed here. Very large angles v.s. very wide boards. I would find it very enlightening to watch both types of riders on course. Just an assumption, but I think we would see riders using largely cross under in one camp, and cross over in the other. Obviously a highbred of them into cross through for speed.

The riders are adamant about their positions because they are experiencing real world results for their particular style. I imagine both have trophies and medals.

what you have to understand here though is dave is the only one really pushing big angles.

his race experience is nastar type stuff, his big snowboarding achievement is getting his AASI level one cert which is attainable by people who literally can't consistently get off of a lift.