gdboytyler Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 It's interesting that some of you call touching the snow a "crutch maneuver".For a lot of us, certainly me at least, that's what it is because it gives me more confidence during the turn if I can feel "where I am". ... I don't think I've seen a single video of a rider on a steep slope without the rider touching the snow. Here's Bordy doing some hand dragging. It doesn't look like a crutch to me. http://hardbooter.net/blog/?p=142 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Here's Bordy doing some hand dragging. It doesn't look like a crutch to me.http://hardbooter.net/blog/?p=142 That's why I said "For a lot of us" instead of "For all of us", because my comments do not apply to all carvers. And I've watched enough people ride to know it isn't just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 its not a crutch, its a hand massage as we cop a feel.... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Touching the snow can be a crutch but it can also be a way of gauging where you are in relation to the snow. Like putting a knee down on the tarmac going around a track on a motorcycle. The pressure on your knee the angle of your leg tells you how far you have to go before you touch a peg down and need to adjust your line. I suppose the EC equivalent of motorcycles is ice racing... Since I ride pretty relaxed angles I usually touch a knee down on a toeside carve before I put a hand down, I 'm not sure if this is a technical error on my part but when I get the knee down I bring it in a bit then the next point of contact is the hand looking for where I am, "EC" is just the next step (with a body extension as well)... right? I've never thought that EC is just flopping down on the snow with your body. That's not what I see on JP's videos. I do see guys just flop down and to me that not pretty and it's not "really" EC (to me). I my mind, carving is not controlled falling but just physics trying to keep you standing, which to me is the opposite of controlled falling (walking is controlled falling). To me EC is getting low AND extending the body into the turn. That's what set's it apart from simply dragging your body on the snow. I think definitions need to be clarified... When you look at the "perfect" EC turn there is no reach for the snow just the body trying to get away from the snow and inevitably touching because there's no where else to go. My cent and a half... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyTKDsquirrel Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I prefer it on my bike. haha holy crap! I didnt even know it was possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 With EC turns you are really shaping the top of the turn and moving some of the pressure from the bottom...where it loads up like crazy...to the top. So that is really cool. EC is exclusive to alpine snowboards, can't do it on skis! Gotta watch it, getting into the "hands down, butt up" position must be avoided at all costs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 With EC EC is exclusive to alpine snowboards, can't do it on skis! quote] haha nope. this cat does it quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Oh god, the downhill ski flapping, tail loading, over rotated, acl snapping abomination! I just about lost my lunch! You can't just be throwing links like this up, people could be emotionally damaged by watching stuff like this. Children might be watching for cripes sake! I'm going to have to take a shower now. ehem....Respectfully, I stand by my previous statement. With EC EC is exclusive to alpine snowboards, can't do it on skis! quote] haha nope. this cat does it quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 LOL its a thread about EC STYLE..... not angulation and technique hahah Dragging body: check Hands in snow: check Body forward: check Large arcs in snow: check Smiles as big as arcs: check Snow up the sleeves and down the powder skirt: check yep its EC allright Still looks fun though ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Sounds like how some SB racers feel about EC. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 IMO, EC is just one thing to pull out of a bag of tricks, not the end all be all. On a steep slope with deep groom I think it's fun. Once upon a time at the top of Big Burn at Snowmass, first run of the day, the clouds are below us covering the valley floor, the sun is just peeking through the whispy snowflakes coming off of the cloud peeks. We have 6" of the lightest, sparkly, fluff I have ever seen on top of perfect groom, no wind - just perfect. Making turns in this allowed me to literaly bury everything but my head. I was like a five year old playing in the snow. It was surreal to see my hands and legs disappear mid-turn under the fluff. That was soooooooo much fun. Now that I'm back east it's ALL about finding the technique that works best for me, to get the most riding enjoyment out of my day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Sounds like how some SB racers feel about EC. :rolleyes: OMG! You're not serious!!! Say your not serious!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Large arcs in snow: check That's what makes me not want to EC. Large arcs. The ski patroller gone ski instructor for 20 years gone carver who I ride with is all about the carvefather style of shoving your rear BTS up your ass crack. There was that video that I posted a month ago or so of me basically standing up and tilting the board on edge. He took one look at me, and told me that the GS board is going to toss me into an early grave if I didn't tell it what to do. His experience with teaching, gratitude, and not being afraid of yelling helped so much. I cringe when I see an EC now. That extended, laid out position seems like an invitation to get punched in the stomach. I still can't ride to save my life, but all that compression has fixed so many problems for me, and taught me how much fun a big board is when you make it turn like a little one Is there realistically a way to drive the board from such a relatively non-agressive position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I guess I need to find more snowboard slalom racing vids to watch...because I don't think I've ever seen anyone get pretty leaned over in a turn *without* dragging something. It's almost as if the default mindset is "past 45 degrees, you start touching the snow." Why? Is this really necessary? If you don't touch the snow or drag your leg are you going down? Or is it truly just a style thing to look cool and nothing more? Astrokel, your knee-dragging analogy is pretty good (the idea that it's a "feeler gauge" thing)...except I've seen some amazing motorcyclists tear up twisty mountain roads at high speeds without ever touching a knee...and I've also seen a lot of squids try to drag their knees at speeds where it's not even remotely necessary. I would *love* to see someone get 6" above the snow in a turn with their arms crossed over their chest and nothing but the board edge touching the snow. Is this possible? What style is that? :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I still can't ride to save my life, but all that compression has fixed so many problems for me, and taught me how much fun a big board is when you make it turn like a little one Is there realistically a way to drive the board from such a relatively non-agressive position? Doing or knowing how to do an "EC" turn does not preclude making turns in all kinds of ways. I do not understand the attitude of "I don't want to do that because then I won't be able to do a compressed turn"... what's up with that? Make the turn that is appropriate for your particular mindset/place/ability in that particular time and don't worry about being mistaken for something. It's a problem nowadays with everything it seems... "if you are not WITH us you are against us"... there are no contracts to sign when you figure out how to do something... There clearly is a way to drive the board from the extended position (it's probably one of the most documented turns out there ironically), the compressed position is merely in a different place than what I assume you're in... in the "EC" turn compression is between the arcs. It's a weird feeling but I've done a non dragging fairly close to the ground version and it's fun but doesn't feel at all dependable in bumpy snow... That is what I think is the weakness of it, but the experts (I assume) just modulate the degree of extension in those iffy areas.. half cent? sorry if I'm sounding a bit cranky but both of my two year olds got up at 4:30 am this morning...need to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 That's what makes me not want to EC. Large arcs. The ski patroller gone ski instructor for 20 years gone carver who I ride with is all about the carvefather style of shoving your rear BTS up your ass crack. ... Do you mean like this? Of course, the contradiction is that Patrice is initiating the epitome of an EC turn:smashfrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Astrokel, your knee-dragging analogy is pretty good (the idea that it's a "feeler gauge" thing)...except I've seen some amazing motorcyclists tear up twisty mountain roads at high speeds without ever touching a knee...and I've also seen a lot of squids try to drag their knees at speeds where it's not even remotely necessary.I would *love* to see someone get 6" above the snow in a turn with their arms crossed over their chest and nothing but the board edge touching the snow. Is this possible? What style is that? :) Scott I'm afraid I better shut up soon lest people think I actually think I think I know what I'm talking about but... anything that I write are OPINIONS and maybe completely idiotic but they're mine:ices_ange The squid trying to touch his/her knee down where it's not even possible is the guy reaching down to touch the snow and bending at the waist in order to do so. You should do some reading at Carvers Almanac and the EC site for more info about what EC actually is but the one thing I think should be clarified is: There is a difference between TECHNIQUE and STYLE. Which are YOU talking about? back to lurking...my head hurts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Do you mean like this? Of course, the contradiction is that Patrice is initiating the epitome of an EC turn:smashfrea Boy, that IS the photo. In order to have the room in your body to make the extension at the apex of the turn you need to REALLY compress at the transition (it helps if you're tall - I'm not:(). That's why the EC guys need the fore aft flexibility in their boots and started playing around with the spring systems that are now manifest in BTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I would *love* to see someone get 6" above the snow in a turn with their arms crossed over their chest and nothing but the board edge touching the snow. Is this possible? What style is that? :) That's called "awesome." I checked the "yes" box, planning to clarify that it's "a" goal, not "the" goal. I also want to get a lot better at jumping, and that's probably my primary goal (if I had to choose - but I don't have to choose). And then, reading this, I realized that EC doesn't mean the same thing to me that it does to everyone else. By the most definitions I probably should have picked "no." If I put any significant weight on the snow with my body, to me that counts as a fall. The fact that I can recover immediately and any witnesses would probably not even notice, doesn't change the fact that (IMO) I fell mid-turn. It happened a couple times today. I'm guessing that kind of thing is what a lot of people consider EC and I can understand the aversion to it. It doesn't feel right to me either. To me, EC means carving and leaning in as far as possible without (what I consider) falling. If I put weight on the snow with anything but my board, I fell. By that definition pretty happy with where I'm on on toesides but my heelsides are getting lower only very gradually. I can get my ass low enough that non-Bomber observers wouldn't notice my falls, but I still want to get my shoulders a lot lower - without falling. I drag my hands a lot, but if it's just my fingertips then so be it. That doesn't count. If I lean on my hand, that's cheating. If I lean hard, it counts as a fall. Hand-dragging is totally subconscious, it's like breathing. I think it would be even cooler to keep my hands in the same place between carves and during carves, but every time I turn hard, I notice my fingers dragging. I do want to eventually fix that, though. If I tried to keep one eye closed during a carve, that would probably be just as difficult, and for mostly the same reasons. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeronaut Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 If the question had been "Is EC one of your goals, ...?" I'd have voted yes. Ultimate goal, no. Too many things to do and try. Or, for the joke answer, acquiring enough boards and bindings to build a small shed with them is my ultimate goal. Regards, aeronaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnaud Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Voted "yes". Was a challenge. Reached now :) Now I'm looking to another one like doing the same .... fakie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekdut Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I would *love* to see someone get 6" above the snow in a turn with their arms crossed over their chest and nothing but the board edge touching the snow.Is this possible? What style is that? :) I do not have a scanned picture of this, but you can find this in the Snowboard Journal article on SES from a few years back. And yes, it does look sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I think it's really good question to ask whether an EC turn like Arnaud's pic above counts as a "controlled fall?" Or as an "EC turn?" (Nothing against you Arnaud!) The fact is that nobody other than the person actually doing it can tell which it is when you're dragging an entire leg, part of a torso, and both arms in the snow. Maybe a better term for EC would be "body skid!" Seriously, why not just call it "body skidding?" I still think it looks cool...just wearing my psychologist-philosopher's hat and wondering precisely why we think it looks cool? And Astrokel, the style vs. technique question is a blurry one. I'm talking about both...or neither. LOL Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 There clearly is a way to drive the board from the extended position (it's probably one of the most documented turns out there ironically), the compressed position is merely in a different place than what I assume you're in... in the "EC" turn compression is between the arcs. It's a weird feeling but I've done a non dragging fairly close to the ground version and it's fun but doesn't feel at all dependable in bumpy snow... That is what I think is the weakness of it, but the experts (I assume) just modulate the degree of extension in those iffy areas.. Actually, you answered what my question at the end of my post was really about, despite the fact I didn't ask it how I meant to. Haha funny how things work out like that. Thanks! I'm not in the mindset that you're either an ECer or an angulated rider, it's just that I have ZERO experience with EC, save for a handful of fluke toesides and maybe 3 or 4 fluke heelsides. Angulation + super low stance such as what CMC or the Carvefather do have worked so well for all the riding issues I've had. Perhaps if I had snow instead of 2 inches of slurpee over ice I'd have a different experience. Cheers, Theo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 It would be fun to do, but haven't enough time on the groomers to seriously think about perfecting a Euro. The call of the bumps, and trees, and steeps, and glades, is far to powerful to be on the grooms except to get back to the lift. This is not to say that when going back to the lift lines it wouldn't be fun to be totally laid out, just so it's not in the lift line itself. Back to Lutsen Mt. for the next two weekends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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