rhaskins Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 I got my Fin-Tec's on xmas eve, first runs on Dec 26. Everything fine. Dec 27, had some connection issues. Some times it felt that I just could not let a connection, had to make several attempts. It was all ice on the slopes, so I put the problems off on that. On Tuesday the 30th, snow was good, but I had to stomp repeatedly to get connected. After about 2.5 hours the hard stomping was getting more severe, and I was thinking that the retracting pins were being jammed. But the fact that they retracted when I pulled on the cable did not indicate jamming. Dec 31, very cold. In about 30 minutes the connection problem was so severe that I could not step in at all no matter how hard I stomped. I had to manually retract the pins with the cable in order to clip in. I was very concerned so I switched to a different board with new Catek OS-2's. No problem clipping in. There is a noticable difference in the pin bevel on the Fin-Tec's and the F1 Intec's. The angle on the F2 Intec's is flatter than the Fin-Tecs. You can see that in the attached pics. I can't see how that would cause this issue. The receivers on the Catek's is aluminum. I have seen some pictures posted on bomber of receivers heavily eroded, where people discussed about not clipping in or being unsure if they clipped in. This issue is different - I can't get clipped in as my pins won't retract. The aluminum shows what appears to be some light spalling, but nothing else. The receivers seem to have discolored and worn a lot in the 3 days I was using the Fin-tec's. Sudden Onset Receiver Clip-In Syndrome? Its a real pisser. I am going to try to lube the Catek receiver. Just so happens I ordered some bomber butter about a few weeks ago. I still don't have my head around why one set has the issue and the other doesn't. Same temp. Could be: difference in coating on the receivers; could be defective surface hardening on the first set's receivers; could be the problem does not manifest until there is significant wear in the first place; could be that the Fin-Tec's have sharper edges than the F2 Intec's; could be some sort of cold weather stiction; could be combinations of all the above; could be serendipity. Anyone else have any of these issues? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Wow, it's galled on the bottom of the bore, or is that just residual crap? Seems like there's some interference that gets worse with temp, maybe the butter will resolve it. Can you clip one side then the other instead of going in straight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyagt4 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Sounds like the tolerances are just getting too tight with the temperature change. I would imagine that the pin diameter is close to the same between the Bomber heels and the Intec. How do they fit warm now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotbeans Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 If what I'm interpreting as you switched to a differnt set of OS2's with different heel receivers and those worked, then IMO, you've hit part of the issue: The pins on the heels might be sharp enuf and the receiver worn enuf that the pin creates a knife-edge on the top of the receiver and keeps the pin from retracting. If it were me, I'd clean up the top of the receiver so there aren't any burrs or deformation at all. I'm sure you've already taken the boot and peered at the connection while it was on a workbench. You might be catching it on that groove.. Let us know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Please read this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotbeans Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 **Bingo!** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csquared Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 From your photo, it looks like the aluminum receiver is showing signs of some galling (small particles of metal that start to tear out of the surface but roll into a micro-ball). If this surface became difficult for the pins to slide over while stepping in (because of the galling), the pins would hang-up and twist in their races inside the heel block, making it even more difficult for them to retract as they slide in. When you switched to another OS2 binding, the surfaces of the binding would not have been galled yet so the Fintec's worked. I am guessing that with more action on the second set of bindings, the same problem would occur. I am also guessing that you had no problems with your front foot, right? It sounds like this is part of the reason that Fin is not recommending use of the Fintecs with aluminum heel receiver systems. Most unfortunate. I don't have my Fintec's yet but I have a similar dilemma: how to adapt my old Cateks. I have e-mailed Fin and Michelle to see if the heel adapter kit is compatible with Cats. Oh yeah, the galling on the bottom of the receiver hole that Chris Houghton noted? That damage can only mean the boot is riding on the pins instead of the 'ramps' (the ears that project from the heel). Whether your rocking Intecs or Fintecs the boot should not be riding on the pins as they are not designed to carry high loads (eg. landing a jump badly). You need to adjust the binding to force the boot back far enough that the ramps meet the heel receiver when clipped in. This can be tricky and usually the pins will just barely fire into the receiver (they will be at the very rear of the elongated holes) when adjusted correctly - a bit of a pain if you are dealing with sticky snow underfoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxguitarist Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 From your photo, it looks like the aluminum receiver is showing signs of some galling (small particles of metal that start to tear out of the surface but roll into a micro-ball). If this surface became difficult for the pins to slide over while stepping in (because of the galling), the pins would hang-up and twist in their races inside the heel block, making it even more difficult for them to retract as they slide in. When you switched to another OS2 binding, the surfaces of the binding would not have been galled yet so the Fintec's worked. I am guessing that with more action on the second set of bindings, the same problem would occur. I am also guessing that you had no problems with your front foot, right?It sounds like this is part of the reason that Fin is not recommending use of the Fintecs with aluminum heel receiver systems. Most unfortunate. I don't have my Fintec's yet but I have a similar dilemma: how to adapt my old Cateks. I have e-mailed Fin and Michelle to see if the heel adapter kit is compatible with Cats. Oh yeah, the galling on the bottom of the receiver hole that Chris Houghton noted? That damage can only mean the boot is riding on the pins instead of the 'ramps' (the ears that project from the heel). Whether your rocking Intecs or Fintecs the boot should not be riding on the pins as they are not designed to carry high loads (eg. landing a jump badly). You need to adjust the binding to force the boot back far enough that the ramps meet the heel receiver when clipped in. This can be tricky and usually the pins will just barely fire into the receiver (they will be at the very rear of the elongated holes) when adjusted correctly - a bit of a pain if you are dealing with sticky snow underfoot. Read the whole thread that gecko posted- they are coming out with a catek steel heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhaskins Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Please read this.... Thanks, I did not see that. I was searching on intec, failure, galling and etc., but never got that in any search. Another reason: I been out using these puppies. Thanks again, I'll have to get a couple of sets of receivers when they are available. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csquared Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I had read Fin's initial post about a week ago but had not gone back to look at the follow-up so I had missed his announcement about replacement receivers for Cats. Most embarassing. I guess I am going to be buying a lot of product from Fin this year. I really believe that the Fintec is a necessary evolution of the Intec system and I support it. There is bound to be some teething pains while implementing this product but I believe we will all be well-served by it. It should offer a more robust and reliable interface for those that want step-in technology. Plastics are wonderful but I can't help feeling nervous about the loads that are being applied to Intec heels and the downside if the plastic fails. Metal is more reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csquared Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I am only approaching this from an intuitive point of view. I don't have any set of statistics to support my opinion. The plastic parts of my Intecs have served me well for years. And in fact it is only metal parts (the T nuts) that have failed me. I did have a crash which resulted in the plastic body of an Intec heel fracturing around a pin but I was happy that the plastic acted as a kind of safety valve for the forces involved rather than the bones in my leg. I'm not trying to inflame any passionate beliefs about the structural sufficiency of plastics versus metal. In many instances, composites can exceed the capabilities of metal. And we have all seen metal binding components fail when plastics have done their job admirably. However, I would still feel personally more comfortable with metal as the material supporting the pin loads of my Intec heel system rather than plastic. What is your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 For a given shape/dimension of a part, aluminum will be stronger than plastic. There's no debating that. To the OP, you can also file the edges of the pins on the face that contacts the ramps. I was a little surprised to see the sharp corner on the pins when I first got my Intecs. I filed it so that there was a relatively flat surface with nicely rounded edges right where it contacts the ramps on the receiver. It makes for buttery smooth step-in action and a lot less receiver wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDY_2_Carve Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 The older TD1/2 receivers will become problematic with ANY level of snow around your heels. The worst is ice forming on the BOTTOM of the heel. I've almost gotten to the point that I'm going to carry a retractable flat screwdriver of some sort to knock off the ice while on the lift. Are you sure it's not snow/ice interfeering with the connection? If the pins cannot get low enough into the receiver they obviously will never fully engange. I have 10X less problems when I use my F2 Intecs. They also have the teflon coated receivers which Fin has claimed are the same as the bomber steel receiver just not painted black. I don't want to dispute Fin because he obviously knows 1000X more than I do, but every site I've seen that sells newer F2 Intec's talks about the "teflon coated receiver" that keeps snow/ice from sticking to it. Actually I saw Catek was selling F2's today in his email and when I went to the site it was in the description as well. Regardless if they are really teflon coated or not they are SO MUCH BETTER than the older TD1/2 receivers. I can only imagine Fin's steel receiver is light years ahead of the older TD1/2 counterpart whether painted, teflon-coated, or bare. It's really more about the shape/materials anyways IMHO. The bottom line is Fin has posted that he does not recommend using Fin-Techs with TD1/2 receivers so you need to upgrade regardless. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 but show me your data. I happen to be from Missouri and I happen to have seen many metallic parts/components replaced by plastics. Given your no debate logic, why aren't all helicopter rotor blades made out of aluminum? I see that you do not understand that it is not brute strength or tensile strength that matters. No need to get so stressed. (pun intended :p) I know you have a lot of plastic/composite experience. Maybe you missed the "for a given shape/dimensions" part. I don't debate that an aluminum part can be replaced by a plastic part and do the same or better job but usually the plastic part gets bigger, has a thicker wall thickness, etc. This comes down to tensile yield strength - aluminum has yield strengths varying from 14,000 psi for the lowest grades to stuff that's stronger than low-grade steel. A typical Nylon 6/6 tensile strength is 6,500 psi. Polycarb starts at around 9,000 psi. To take the same number of pounds of load, the area has to increase when the yield strength is lower. The Intec standard has a fixed amount of area to work in. If you can't make the plastic part thicker or larger, an aluminum part will be stronger in that application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 These all make data very important. If you do not have the data, the theory is just that. Lots of people spend an ordinate amount of time and money testing and collecting data to prove or disprove theories. Sometimes, in science, what seem intuitively obvious may just be plain wrong. I'm not interested in a credentials pissing match. If you have space for a 1 cm x 1 cm x 1 cm block of material that is going to have an unknown load on it, would any grade of plastic be able to sustain a higher tensile load than 6061-T6 aluminum? Would an ambient temperature of -30F change your answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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