Need advice - Heel Side Turn

[b0ardski]

I like using poles as a slope gage.

[shawndoggy]

Skogs... just a quick thought from someone who is working on the same issue... I've been trying all of that "look where you want to go" and "swivel your head uphill" stuff, but still getting some heelside washouts.

What seems to be working for me is sorta what bobby and rob are saying... making sure that the back knee is driving in the direction of the turn. If I concentrate just on that on the heelsides ("get that knee in, get that knee in") all of the other stuff makes a lot more sense. Physically, it feels like my back knee is in line right behind my front. When I can get that physical sensation, the turns seem to work.

By no means an expert, but just that little tweak has given me the confidence to ride stuff I never would've considered last season.

[Dave ESPI]

You mean I actually helped you:eek:

Even old dogs have tricks that they can re-learn and make better.

plus now before I initiate a massive turn I ALWAYS "check my 6" when carving a hard one for all the ski-orons who lurk in the blindspot and run into us as we carve across the hill. ;)

[skogs]

OK, thanks for all the great advice. I have to get my eyes, chest and hands pointing in the direction of travel. I'm also going to dial up the angle on the back foot to get my back knee more in line with the front knee. As an FYI, my stance width is 19.25". I love the gunslinger position that you guys talk about on the forum as that is exactly what it looks like. Carvedog is right about me counter-rotating my upper body at the end of the toeside turn to initiate the heel side turn. I'm attaching a couple pictures of my toe side turns and a picture of the transition point between toe and heel side. The second after the shot was taken, I threw my left arm across the board which resulted in me sitting on the toilet. In one of the toe side turn photos, I actually tried to hold my hands together so that I kept my upper body pointed down the length of the board. I had to laugh at the holding the bar and riding the bike art. :) That's more motivation to fix the problem.

[carvedog]

OK, thanks for all the great advice. I have to get my eyes, chest and hands pointing in the direction of travel. I'm also going to dial up the angle on the back foot to get my back knee more in line with the front knee. As an FYI, my stance width is 19.25". I love the gunslinger position that you guys talk about on the forum as that is exactly what it looks like. Carvedog is right about me counter-rotating my upper body at the end of the toeside turn to initiate the heel side turn. I'm attaching a couple pictures of my toe side turns and a picture of the transition point between toe and heel side. The second after the shot was taken, I threw my left arm across the board which resulted in me sitting on the toilet. In one of the toe side turn photos, I actually tried to hold my hands together so that I kept my upper body pointed down the length of the board. I had to laugh at the holding the bar and riding the bike art. :) That's more motivation to fix the problem.

Only because I been there do I know what of I speak.

For me it was a matter of getting enough flex up and down to make turn initiation easy, subtle and more with knees and ankles than upper body movements.

Once you have enough up and down unweighting, retraction whatever you want to call getting light on your board, then it will be easier to get your whole body working in the same direction. Holding hand together, somewhere in front of body, thighs etc. forces you to use stronger unweighting moves and is a good way to practice.

Make sure you are getting enough flex out of your boots for this. If you aren't actively flexing your boots, that could be a problem. If you feel you need more flex there consider the bts, softer tongues, notching them out whatever needs to be done.

Once you get the technique down a little more it will be easier to tell if you need softer boots. Post up boot info and weight and you may get some feedback on that too. Better than reckless speculation.

[skogs]

Carvedog - yes, the stiffness of the boots definitely affects my ability to get low. I weigh 175 lbs, am riding Head Stratus Pro boots (mondo 29) and usually tighten up the buckles pretty tight as well as the top strap. It's definitely resulted in a rigid setup. I tried loosening up the buckles and strap and got on the board in my apartment to experiment. It definitely gives more range of motion. l'll have to try it out on the hill.

Thanks

[Mr. T]

Nice work!!! Your latest pics look like you are really directing force down the hill and into the turn instead of into the back seat. I agree with others in working on leg flexion / extension ( and boot stiffness ) but also keeping shoulders parallel to the hill. While it's a PITA, dills with poles, bamboo or otherwise (go hit up the race department at yer local hill or just keep an eye out behind the patrol shack) really help to force you to position your upper body. Carve easy but try holding it both palms up and palms down arms in front like a kayak palldle, then try it over your shoulders ( pure fun ). Sort of a skier derived drill along these same lines is carving while holding cups of water, or beer.

Another one that is pretty good at isolating body parts and forces you to be in the right position for turn initiation is riding with arms crossed across your chest, you'll love it. Ride on!!

[big mario]

reach for the snow on the downhill edge Works really well for getting you shoulders parallel when you forget your stick. Hurts your abs too. I like it.

mario

[skogs]

OK, so I tried a bunch of the suggestions today with success. First, I made sure my left hand pointed in the direction I wanted to go and kept my trailing hand close to my knee or upper boot cuff during the heelside turn. It helped keep the board from chattering and carved a smoother line. I also used a ski pole to keep my hands parallel to the snow surface at all times. I also kept my head pointed in the direction that I wanted to go. On heelside, this was taken to an extreme where I kept looking uphill and stayed locked into the turn and almost didn't make the transition to toeside before I hit the side of the trail. It proves how powerful looking where you want to go will take you. On the same topic, I found it hard to unlock the heelside turn. I had to force my body to lean down the fallline to initiate the toeside turn. I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. The other take away from today was by driving my trailing knee into the back of my leading knee, my right quad got a hell of a work out on heelside turns. I could only ride for about 2 1/2 -3 hours as my right quad was cooked. Is that normal?

[carvedog]

On the same topic, I found it hard to unlock the heelside turn. I had to force my body to lean down the fallline to initiate the toeside turn. I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. The other take away from today was by driving my trailing knee into the back of my leading knee, my right quad got a hell of a work out on heelside turns. I could only ride for about 2 1/2 -3 hours as my right quad was cooked. Is that normal?

Not entirely normal but maybe for the first time using some of those muscles. If you don't push out at some point and get "tall" to stretch out those muscles you will get cooked.

Also the getting locked onto the heel thing. If you are trying to horse it around it will be very hard. If you can unweight by doing a strong retraction move then it is very easy. (Easier). This is impossible if you are already all retracted.

Another way to think about it is a variation of the fire fighters stop, drop and roll.

But this is push, pull and roll to the new edge.

If you are unable to vary the pressure on the edge it will be very difficult to get off the edge.

[BadBrad]

Skogs, it looks as if we are at the same point on the learning curve. My last time out I did the rear elbow to front knee on heelsides and it really locked in and tightened up my heelside carves. But then, like you, I had a harder time transitioning to the toesides. I think the problem is what carvedog said, that I am too compressed at the end of the heelside turn so I can't retract the board under me. That compressed position worked well to soak up the bumps, though. I used to get bounced around on less than perfect groom, but with that angulated compressed position I could really feel my legs working like shock absorbers to soak up the bumps.

I also got a lot of rear thigh burn, to the point of cramping. Front thigh too, but not as bad. However, I think something else might have been going on that day. I rode for a couple of full days Christmas week and never got very tired, but my last day out I was winded after an hour. Took a break and got something to drink, then went back out and was hurting after just a couple of runs. Took another break, did a couple of runs, legs cramped up bad, so I quit. I was wondering if it could be after effects of the concussion I got a few weeks ago, but my wife and kid have been sick so I suspect that my body was just fighting a virus or something.

Also, thigh burn, especially if it is just one leg, can be caused by setup problems. What canting/lifting are you using, and how much forward lean in your front and rear boots?

[carvedog]

Skogs, it looks as if we are at the same point on the learning curve. My last time out I did the rear elbow to front knee on heelsides and it really locked in and tightened up my heelside carves. But then, like you, I had a harder time transitioning to the heelsides. I think the problem is what carvedog said, that I am too compressed at the end of the heelside turn so I can't retract the board under me. That compressed position worked well to soak up the bumps, though. I used to get bounced around on less than perfect groom, but with that angulated compressed position I could really feel my legs working like shock absorbers to soak up the bumps.

Also, thigh burn, especially if it is just one leg, can be caused by setup problems. What canting/lifting are you using, and how much forward lean in your front and rear boots?

Cupla more thoughts on this. Play with moving the rear elbow down the hill more toward bindings than the full rotation of going to front knee.

To get off the edge sometimes I play with pushing very lightly, slightly straightening the legs maybe only an inch or two and then pulling for the retraction. If you are carving it doesn't take much to switch the edge over. Its more like a pause or just enough to let your center of mass start down the hill.

I also run flat bindings and my boots as upright as I can get them before I lock in. Just my style. I know several of the guys run cants and stuff with no probs. I am looking at the TD3s and will probably try the 3 in the front.

[skogs]

OK, so if I understand, I should be contracting my legs as I approach the end of the heelside turn so I have enough travel to compress a little bit and then pop the edge out. I run a 3 degree cant plate on both front and back so it should keep me centered on the board. However, I did notice I was weighting the back of the board more on heelsides which probably led to the thigh burn. I'm going back out on Saturday, so I'll try to not compress as much during the turn so I have more leg length to compress and then do a quick retract of the edge. I was thinking yesterday that this sport is like golf, every once in a while you lay down some solid linked carves (great shots) and then you don't (hooks, slices, whiffs, etc). But those solid carves are so addictive and keep us in the game.