killing jumping

[lowrider]

at our local hill risk managment was busy knocking down jumps as fast as young rippers could scratch up the hardpack to create them the park hasen't opened yet. is this common practice everywhere or are we just unlucky???

[Hotbeans]

They aren't so diligent down our way... especially now that they're blowing snow. Easy enuf to shovel out an approach on the mounds.

[lowrider]

they won't allow us on the runs till they are groomed and certified boiler plate flat i think they want to paint lines on the snow next. the park has more lines than a wallmart parking lot.

[BobD]

Have you ever hit one of the 2 foot kiddie kickers flat out, mid carve in flat light ?. Suddenly you find your hand is still on the snow and the board is now three feet in the air.

BobD

[Hotbeans]

they won't allow us on the runs till they are groomed and certified boiler plate flat i think they want to paint lines on the snow next. the park has more lines than a wallmart parking lot.

any chance of boycotting them? We start endorsing this stuff, then they'll for sure be restricting our carving lanes/speed. What next "wheelchair" accessible? Lanes for the blind? A certified "fitness and ability test" to qualify for certain runs?

Strapping boards/board to feet and pointing downhill on snow means accepting a certain amount of risk. Don't like the risks presented with human activity? Here's a thought: DONT PARTICIPATE!

Crap, I hate this stuff.

[rhaskins]

When I get all growed up and purchase my own ski resort and am paying all that insurance out of my own pocket, I will set the rules any way I like. Until then, I guess I am a paying guest and should mostly abide by the rules. I guess. It kinda says so on the back of my lift ticket.

I dislike:

a) people that start out mid-slope without looking up the slope so that I have to take evasive actions. I have been creamed on more than one occassion to avoid a person-to-person impact.

b) straight-liners that feel they own the slope at mach 3 and everyone needs to get out of their way. Got hit a couple of times . .

c) the skidder "pod" that feels they HAVE to have a sit down on the slope just behind a mound or rise so that you can't see them until you are right on them. Can scare the crap out of ya. They mean it when they say always stay in control - just to avoid these clowns

d) kiddies that build little kicker jumps in the middle of the slope - because I just don't always see them. I agree with BobD, this is not responsible behavior

e) social time in the lift lines where people can only ride with their chosen ones and are willing to hold up the entire line to wait for them, the social gathering in the lift lines that slow the entire process up, and . . . and . . .

Well, I am just there to snowboard. If I want a social scene I pull it out of the well-traveled areas or take it to the lounge. I am so not normal. Watch out when I'm able to buy my own resort tho!

Rick

[Jack M]

Before parks, jumps were always verboten on anything but black diamonds. Any natural jump would have a bamboo X blocking it, and forget about building one. Just because a park hasn't been built yet doesn't mean you're entitled to build jumps.

[LeeW]

Yeah, we dont want another Snoqualmie incident.

[Petrol]

any ....A certified "fitness and ability test" to qualify for certain runs?...

way back in my third yr of boarding, I went to a local 'resort' that had until the '93-'94 season refused to allow snowboards on thier hill and had to do just that. what a bunch of maroons

[lowrider]

i guess i have to take the kids to the nursing home wheelchair ramps to build their kickers i've always felt that the more kids off on the side lines the more room on the slopes for carving .

[Chubz]

I would consider knocking down jumps made by young rippers to be lucky for us as riders.

Maybe its my age (39), my occupation (Risk Engineer), my disdain for the youth of today (I have 3 young ones, but still cant stand kids), maybe its all of them combined.

I would deem it lucky because knocking down those jumps, keeps little timmy who thinks he is a "ripper" from taking unecessary risks like getting 18 (useless) inches of air on a busy slope and keeps him from meatwagoning himself or any other passer-by, which leads to your large dollar loss, in a law suit by his parents (even though it was his fault) or the person that gets plowed.

By reducing the risk, i.e. removing makeshift jumps, the resort not only removes the "hazard" but also shows good due diligence, which will be needed in a court of law, when timmy's parents still think they have a case. "Oh Judge , our Little Timmy couldnt have done anything wrong, he is our boy" Even if the resort doesnt pay out to Timmy parents, it creates, nuisance costs (legal fees, time etc.), which shows up on their annual loss summaries( Net Incurred), all of which is factored into their annual insurance rating costs AND if your local resorts insurance rating goes up in cost, guess who gets to pay for that insurance increase.................We do, the skiers and boarders of the resorts, lift tix cost more, passes cost more, everything. Also, the more a resort pays towards insurance premiums, the less money there is for expansion, that would give all of us more room to rip it up.

Anyway, 95% of the boarders out there shouldnt even be looking to jump off a makeshift jump, they should be learning the core basics of riding, which include, actually knowing how to set an edge and make a turn and knowing the basic components of existing on the mountain. Those riders who can actually "rip" wait until the park is open, because makeshift jumps are for chumps. with that, I also think that boarders and skiers should demonstrate certain skill levels b4 they are permited in certain areas of the mountain.

I wish my local mountain would do more enforcement for idiot straight liners, handkercheif (sp)wearing Shaun White wanna be's and any other pinheads that dont observe the rules that are actually spelled out on the back of the ticket of pass. They are there for a reason.

At Blue Mountain, PA, where I ride, they have one of the largest Ski Patrols memberships in the east , if not the USA, yet the only time I see them doing something is when they are toting someone off the hill in the meat sled. They never stop anyone for anything else. The incident rates at the mountain was one of the factors is choosing them to be the featured Ski Patrol for the reality show on Tru TV this year. Not anything to be proud of.

Here here for bamboo poles and some Patrols actually doing their job.

The only thing that would scare me in doing so is that the couple of us carvers who do ride in control and pick our spots, would get yanked first because alpine riding tends to turn heads more readily that anything else on the mountain.

There's my 38 cents.

Now I have to go put my future pinheads to bed:biggthump

[Hotbeans]

"The only thing that would scare me in doing so is that the couple of us carvers who do ride in control and pick our spots, would get yanked first because alpine riding tends to turn heads more readily that anything else on the mountain."

Doesn't the "ride in control" rule already take care of the argument, or do we need lawyers and "risk engineer's"..insurance companies, to spell it all out for us?

So someone hits the jump that some kids built and hurts themselves. Blame the kids? the resort? Hell, blame Mother Nature! The snow was able to be compacted, moved, reshaped into a 'dangerous' design.

What about the person who hit the jump unexpectedly? If said person WAS in control, wouldn't they be able to avoid the obstacle? If the answer to this is yes, then fault the injured. If the answer is NO, then better take out the trees lining the runs, the lift poles, uneven terrain, bare spots, heck..eventually we'll be going down one at a time.

CONTROL isn't ambiguous. You hit it, you own it.

This BS I will fight forever. Pushing the blame on anyone/anything other than the simple fact that someone was going too fast to avoid object.

I do agree that makeshift jumps should be removed, but not for the liability reasons. A ski area is to be enjoyed by many different age groups, skill levels, and techniques. Having these obstacles proliferate unchecked would reduce enjoyment for many others.

What if a youngster's tips got buried in one of our ruts and got a broken leg? In your opinion, that'd be on us, the resort, and whoever else had a hand in letting that rut stay on the slope.

That is BS!

[rhaskins]

Saturday, no contrast, I hit one of those little kickers and did not see it at all until I was in the air. I was in soft boots, but still splayed myself across the slope because it was unexpected and I had no time to react. I really don't want another broken leg because little Timmy, thoughtless little Timmy with no judgement nor consideration for anyone else, thought it was a great place for a jump. OTOH, if I break my leg by going into the park and trying jumps and etc., my own fault.

Have you never had one of those no-contrast days where you can't see detail on the slope? or are all your days technicolor in pristine focus?

I suggest that if you want to build a jump anywhere Just ask the management. See what they have to say. Really, it is the only responsible thing to do.

Rick

[Hotbeans]

Pretty much all my days are in technicolor..

Ohh, and lens selection helps a bit as well. If that doesn't extend my range of detailed vision, I slow down until I know what I'm getting into.

If I'm still not seeing detail well enough, then I just keep carving away, thinking "I hope there aren't any bumps coming up! If there are, and I eat it hard and break something, at least I can potentially BLAME SOMEONE ELSE!"

[rhaskins]

We will have to agree to disagree.

Rick

[Hotbeans]

I'm happy that you're not too sensitive! And yes, our opinions differ on this topic. :)

[Petrol]

I would consider knocking down jumps made by young rippers to be lucky for us as riders.

Maybe its my age (39), my occupation (Risk Engineer), my disdain for the youth of today (I have 3 young ones, but still cant stand kids), maybe its all of them combined.

I would deem it lucky because knocking down those jumps, keeps little timmy who thinks he is a "ripper" from taking unecessary risks like getting 18 (useless) inches of air on a busy slope and keeps him from meatwagoning himself or any other passer-by, which leads to your large dollar loss, in a law suit by his parents (even though it was his fault) or the person that gets plowed.

By reducing the risk, i.e. removing makeshift jumps, the resort not only removes the "hazard" but also shows good due diligence, which will be needed in a court of law, when timmy's parents still think they have a case. "Oh Judge , our Little Timmy couldnt have done anything wrong, he is our boy" Even if the resort doesnt pay out to Timmy parents, it creates, nuisance costs (legal fees, time etc.), which shows up on their annual loss summaries( Net Incurred), all of which is factored into their annual insurance rating costs AND if your local resorts insurance rating goes up in cost, guess who gets to pay for that insurance increase.................We do, the skiers and boarders of the resorts, lift tix cost more, passes cost more, everything. Also, the more a resort pays towards insurance premiums, the less money there is for expansion, that would give all of us more room to rip it up.

Anyway, 95% of the boarders out there shouldnt even be looking to jump off a makeshift jump, they should be learning the core basics of riding, which include, actually knowing how to set an edge and make a turn and knowing the basic components of existing on the mountain. Those riders who can actually "rip" wait until the park is open, because makeshift jumps are for chumps. with that, I also think that boarders and skiers should demonstrate certain skill levels b4 they are permited in certain areas of the mountain.

I wish my local mountain would do more enforcement for idiot straight liners, handkercheif (sp)wearing Shaun White wanna be's and any other pinheads that dont observe the rules that are actually spelled out on the back of the ticket of pass. They are there for a reason.

At Blue Mountain, PA, where I ride, they have one of the largest Ski Patrols memberships in the east , if not the USA, yet the only time I see them doing something is when they are toting someone off the hill in the meat sled. They never stop anyone for anything else. The incident rates at the mountain was one of the factors is choosing them to be the featured Ski Patrol for the reality show on Tru TV this year. Not anything to be proud of.

Here here for bamboo poles and some Patrols actually doing their job.

The only thing that would scare me in doing so is that the couple of us carvers who do ride in control and pick our spots, would get yanked first because alpine riding tends to turn heads more readily that anything else on the mountain.

There's my 38 cents.

Now I have to go put my future pinheads to bed:biggthump

I know you see it everyday in your line of bidniz but Jeez, sounds like you're Ben Stiller in Along Came Polly :(

puc the park, I love ridding the whole hill, and yes hittin lil chump jumps every now and again between turns....

but then I'm not a highly skilled, deep thinking, deep carving guy who strives for a perfect run evey run...

I'm more of a ballocks to the wall GS rider who goes out for the wind in my face and fun of it who always rides in control, but sometimes 'just'

[Chubz]

I could only wish to wipe myself with Jennifer Aniston's grandma's knitting or quilting work. And it wouldnt be so bad to grab/smack a hand full of her cake either.

Yea I am Him except I do it with construction companies and large projects, buildings, bridges, tunnels, stadiums, highways. We even have our own version of the risk master 2000 or whatevr it was called. I didnt hold that view until I came to the dark side, but hey I get to work from home, make my own schedule, see my kids during the day, pop out every so often and get a few morning runs in.

I have also been blindsided by straight liners and near clippings from kids jumping back into the trails from the woods where jumps form. Its like watching for deer during hunting season while driving at night. You know one is coming but you dont know when.

I dont agree with the cases that show up in court, but thats the reality of the society we live in. I bet McDonalds neve thought they woudl serve a

$3MM cup of coffee one morning when that lady split it on her lap. Or Winnebago had to rewrite a section of their operating manual to include instructions not to leave the driver seat when it is in cruise control to go make a cup of coffee. It happened.

I'm all for good fun for all levels, but when it comes at the expense of others then it may need regulated just a bit.

[Petrol]

It's all good, I enjoy giving our safety guy chit at work too, but unlike most of the other fellows who really get po'd with his "constant-badgering", I know he is looking out for not just all of our safety, but also or livelyhood

[Chubz]

Yea we arent the most well liked people anywhere we work, becuase we are trying to get people to change their habits and processes for the better.

They dont call us "Safety Dicks" for nothing. Had I known any better I wouldnt have chosen it as my major for college. Its not a bad gig but knowing that everything you suggest is stuff that no one wants to do tends to get a bit demoralizing.

I've had a couple workers/friends get killed while I was their safety dick and sad thing is that both I had only seen them a couple days before each incident and discussd with them the importance of tying off. Both fell to their death, one 30 feet the other only 12 feet. i can also say i have influenced 100's for the better over the years and made difference in getting them home each night.

Nothing sucks worse than heading to their house to tell them their husband or son got killed that day.

Home for dinner every night for everyone.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Chubzs. Thank you for the work you do. It is SO IMPORTANT and often overlooked or not validated by those you try to help.

I have worked in construction, heavy industry most of my adult life. I know that the Safety folks walk a tough path. They must try to save lives and yet not been as a hindrance to the processes.

Thanks for your diligence, the working men and women of the US should and are grateful.

Back to topic.

I recall Timberline having to "Guard" half-pipes that were built for competitions. They would then immediately plow them in after the comp. This was mandated by the insurance companies prior to allowing it. Those in the competitions had signed waivers.

Fortunately failed law suits brought precedence that they could use in future litigation and at some point the ski areas were able to build parks without so much legal fear. (Boy do they build them!!!) So goes the history of "Jumps" in the ski areas.

[big mario]

Hey Greg,

In the same boat as you, in the process of completeing my osha 10 hr, and am in the last 3rd of a 9 month rotation. " The safety pricks are here" is my least favorite refrain when we show up to inspect one of our jobsites, and it seems to be the same 4-5 guys with the same safety attitude problem. It is a thankless job, but like you said," Everyone home for dinner". I like it, do you mind if I use it?

mario

[Chubz]

Bryan

thanks for the support

Mario,

I have much more where that comes from. the other challenge of being in my profession is some of the safety professionals that came before us. Some of my least favorite people are close minded pinhead safety people,no wonder we are disliked. I take a very realistic aproach to my safety endevour. I'm not out to make a name for myself, I am out to campaign for people to understand that this world is going to keep rotating even if a worker is silly enough not to take the right steps to protect themselves. 20 years ago we were killing 20 people a day in construction, currently we still kill 3 per day including sat and sunday. Way to many in my opinion. Much of it comes fromthe ignorance of workers and CEO's of companies.

Send me some private messages and I would be more than happy to share some of my education, experience and lessons learned. My latest surge is my "POI's" approach. angle method I can take to make all of our industries safer, makes it better.

If you havent seen the "Remember Charlie" video , try and find it, it will wake you up to the cause.

By the way, when I use to do roofing, some of my crews would pull theirs ladders onto the roof so I couldnt inspect their roofs.

Also, a stadium build I was on once, I was "inch and three quarters". Foremen would work that into radio talk when I began my rounds of the project to let everyone know I was coming. I soon figured it out, but little by little they started figuring out it wasnt for me, it was for them and their people working for them.

[rhaskins]

I'm a registered engineer. I'm mechanical, but I have read the entire electrical code; repeatedly, also the fire code. Something to do in my spare time. Anyhoo, I walk into this manufacturing facility one time, and into the clean room on a job. One-half of the electrical in the room consisted of a plug strip, with a plug strip plugged into it, with another plug strip plugged into that, with another plug strip plugged into that and all the equipment on that side of the room plugged into the strips. Very warm electrical plug. I "mentioned" to the people I was with that was against both the electrical and fire code, and they dumped on me like you would not believe. The maintenance people told (yelled at) me "where is that written down". Really a hubbub. I was there for an entire different purpose, and had to retreat telling them that they can do what they want, I'm just a mech E.

A couple days later when I showed up, the manager of the joint asked me to show him what the issues were and explain it, which I did (electrical overload, burn building down, no one has a job), but referred him to consult with an electrician or electrical E. He asked me to bring him the code sections if I would, which I photocopied and gave to him a few days later. He then asked me to inspect another production area, I told him it was outside of my expertise, but he insisted and stated that it was all verbal and nothing written. I got to inspect the area and the same thing only worse: extension cords running everywhere (some over 50 ft.), extensions cords running thru walls (!!!) all in lieu of proper outlets and circuits, and the same crew that dumped on me a few days before was with me on that day, very polite and thoughtful this time. In the ensuing days, there was a flurry of electricians working running appropriate electrical outlets and circuits. Yeah, and splices in electrical work, they were eliminated, but we won't talk about that.

Sometimes it is the culture of a place that gets in the way of safety, and a lot of times it only takes the right person to be indoctrinated to make things turn around. And I did put myself thru college working as an electrician, so I do know something about how to wire a facility.

People do funny things in relation to safety. Most people have no idea what risk acutally is or what it means. But the accountants listen in my experience, especially if the insurance company insists on an inspection. I have seen more risk and safety turn-arounds initiated by accountants than by other groups, depending on the professionalism of the group.

Did ya hear about the bridge pour in Atlanta that collapsed? Can't wait to hear the post mortem on that one.

Rick

[BobD]

People will be people and one of the problems with NEC, is that it tries to protect against deficiencies in equipment design and construction where the real issue is in the standards used for equipment and materials, and even the evolution of the NEC itself. Cost is always a compromise against safety, but what has happened, is that the onus is put on people rather design and construction of the electrical system and it's materials. Bottom line is, who wants to pay to make people safe, when you can shift the burden to the people themselves.

Which of these two panels would you sooner work on hot (that's the reality) and many US (lower photo) panel have even more exposed live parts than this one. Upper photo is panel form UK.

BobD