Mike Kildevaeld Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 I'm wondering why you would explain someone how to specifically avoid your patent? Obviously, as two board designers, you can share ideas/etc, but if you don't want someone stealing your idea, why would you tell him how to avoid the patent in the first place? Maybe this is something that designers do a lot and I'm just not aware of it (b/c I'm far from being a designer)?? I'm not trying to fan the fire here or make any accusation through this question, this quote has just been bothering me for a while b/c I don't understand the reasoning behind it. Thanks! Tinkler and I sat down many times you may not be able to see that by the way we are acting yet that is the truth prior to he making the Kildy flex pissed me off ever since. So I explained the derby Patent I had going not fearing him to go do because spliting in half edge to edge a device that introduces camber into bottom board seams pretty silly do you follow me camber is supported by the thickest part of board that being the center so spliting board edge to edge is so nuts never dreamed my friend would do anything about it yet much to my surprise one month later capow there it was but he paid for that design at the olympics the middle riviot blew out of the burner because his new pivot point became the front set of rivots which where actualy sam location as now and as mine 12 - 16 inches from the front making this the new middle get it and that is all i will say on all this I am done it seam Tinkler is back and normal this was not a rag on Tinkler I can be civil just dont push me ay so lets get back to normal conversations or I simply ignore and I am saying this now so if the questions remain a test I will not reply does this all make sense I am tired of this crap and Tinkler please do the same I will show you all my new boards and so many answers will have been answered, I am always available for tech questions on many things please ask me no problem just if am am coming across in any way rude you are misunderstanding I just dont give a crap about this old tech any more lets talk new crap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Kildevaeld Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 dont know how this posted twice and I can not seam to erase so I will say whatever and I am not even checking at all what I wrote so forget my spelling and maybe even missed words slept 4 hours last two days just came back from meetings all over the place last two weeks I am toast good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Kildevaeld Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Bordy WOW just seen your here what the heck are you up to man wow long time you just posted tons of memories I saw somehting you posted online with a goolgle search that was funny we where just talking about you the other day no crap ya my writing sucks its a clasic I am glad someone is here to document for me and yes just got done sayig I am done answering silly integraty back ground checks feel like I just traveled through Canadian Boarder which I still have tons of trouble mirrors under car you now full body search it is so fun anyhow thanks for the post it is good to hear you are alive where are you I will look for answer tommorrow seriously must go to bed right now look at some of my last two day post times I am loosing it just returned from Colorado 2 weeks of meetings and boardom to 4 nights no sleep I feel retarded right now see you tommorrow:biggthump;):):rolleyes::D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Kildevaeld Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Nash whats up but good night as well gota go good to see you also can you believe Bordy is still alive I cnat believe anyone of us are still here funny as hell later I will talk morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Yea But if the board rides so much better in the turns it may be worth the time in the flats, plus it is like the kessler effect, If every one is riding a Kessler then they all have the same advandages and disadvantages, If everyones board was rockered then every one whould have the same advantage or disadvandage, hence evening out the playing field. No sure it would ride that much better in turns as not even sure what kind of stiffness it would have to have. Too may variables there to comprehend without beer. When making few protos for the Cdn team, the ones with less rebound did not stand a chance and they really struggled with them. One issue is that you really don't see the winners struggling in the turns and they have good rebound to get to the next turn. I could understand it a bit better if they were sketching out regularly but the guys on the podium can make it through pretty clean almost every time. I love this speculation stuff, its a hell of a lot easier than building a proto:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Just to chime in.Really enjoy this long discussion too. Nothing to contribute to the camber issue cause never tried it. I'm afraid you are an outright liar as you may have more insight here than the rest of us. You own the board that I broke my ankle on . The reason you own it is after I did the full front flip, I landed on the tail and bent it upwards a bit. So you are riding a semi decambered board for the last couple seasons. Since you ordered a new one, I guess it sucks. Thats it, proven, I'm right , may as well end the thread right here;)When you get the new board, I'll take a trade in and bend the front and Voila! Instant proto. This was an AM board that by todays standards had a very stiff tip and tail so we may be onto something here. If nothing else I can get back in the park and pipe with it BV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 :lol: Unfortunately, you build (and rebuild) your board so well:biggthump, that I only experience the rocker when fully pushed in a turn. 40lbs lighter than you and not as aggressive, I can only bend the nose and tail when fully committed. So park board it is not yet, sorry!;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglez Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 I'm afraid you are an outright liar as you may have more insight here than the rest of us. You own the board that I broke my ankle on . The reason you own it is after I did the full front flip, I landed on the tail and bent it upwards a bit. So you are riding a semi decambered board for the last couple seasons. Since you ordered a new one, I guess it sucks. Thats it, proven, I'm right , may as well end the thread right here;)When you get the new board, I'll take a trade in and bend the front and Voila! Instant proto. This was an AM board that by todays standards had a very stiff tip and tail so we may be onto something here. If nothing else I can get back in the park and pipe with it BV Careful Bruce, if you come to Osler again this year with all the snow we have already now, it could happen again! ;) D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Nash Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 isn't he from denmark?I try not to get huffy when people type in a second language. Yes, He is from Demark!!!! secondly, it's ****ing kildy, who cares about grammar he's a damn snowboard legend. Having been a roommate and team/training partner of Kildy's from the very early days I can contest and say he is truely a true maverick thinking outside of the box and constantly pushing the envelope. Trust me as I have seen first hand and spent many hours discussing and debating on many different topics and not just boarding or ski stuff either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Jack,A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes. I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith. Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group. I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, Sean Martin is making boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want. Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.) Regards, Martin Martin I could not agree more, nor could I have said it so well. Thanks for your time in posting your thoughts!! I would never have become a snowboarder had I not been willing to try experimenting with what simply looked like fun and made since. No matter how many times other told me I was "Crazy" or "Reckless". I was neither, I WAS willing to follow my own heart and mind. Thanks again. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Things about BOL i KNOW to be true:1.If you deviate from the acceptable riding techniques ( tech articles) you will be flamed . Seems like when these commandments were handed down from heaven they decided this was it and nothing else needs to be discussed. Oh yeah apparently goes for board design too. 2.Everyone will be gung-ho for whatever board they happen to be on, it's human nature and Pokkis should be commended for sharing information. How many times has Jack mentioned his totally cool M spec schtubby in the last 3 months 3.Somewhere in every controversial thread SOMEONE:lol: will say " well how does that board, technique, or whatever work in the frozen east coast tundra? These same people who don't race btw will argue till blue in the face that racing on ICY (read east coast) and rutted courses is different somehow from "real " carving. Without a clock all that cool technically correct body position just ends up being dare i say.... ice skating? Too much egotistical chest thumping methinks. James. Bingo. You sum it up very nicely my friend. It is great to have a voice of common sense, reason and calm chime in. I often mention to folks. "You don't know unless you go". "Stop talking and start riding!!:) No matter what anyone else thinks, find your "Magic Board" , listen, try, and use what works for you. Thanks, Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus the virus Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 I remember the times when the boards lost their camber faster than you can count from one to three. Its no secret that decambered boards are easier to ride but less stable at speeds. I used a very old soft decambered board for very soft conditions. There ist was a big advantage against the stiffer high cambered boards! If decambered boards are the future or the latest **** we have the evolution! I think every innovation should have this chance, but if this should be the future I will concentrate mor on making skis because skiers like performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 I've said it before and I feel compelled to say it again,"Who needs cable tv when we've got bomberonline!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 I've removed the stuff about the grammar. James. Bingo. You sum it up very nicely my friend. It is great to have a voice of common sense, reason and calm chime in. Oh please. http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=221192&postcount=248 I would never object to a new idea. Look, nobody but the very rich and/or the faithful Tinkler flock are going to shell out ~$2000 for a rockered board without being able to try it. Since Tinkler doesn't do demos, his only other option is a professional review if he wants to sell this thing. If he just does this snowboard thing as a hobby and doesn't care about sales and doesn't care about promoting something that could be good for all of us, then fine. Otherwise, let's find out if this thing really works. I would like to conduct a two part review between myself and a racer, hopefully Bordy. Or if Tinkler already knows it's not going to do well on firm hardpack, just say so and we can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Jack, my board is availble for your testing, just join to ECS or OCC, that is best i can offer. Or if someone provides tickets, i could join SES and let you test it there too :rolleyes:. But note that if your measurements are close to mine, only then testing makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Thanks for the offer Pokkis, however the ECS/OCC aren't in the budget right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeronaut Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 aeronaut, The point was, asyms have been tried, and rocker has been tried. I don't think re-trying them with new materials is time well spent, if the goal is on-piste carving (which the OP said). Jack, OK. That's cool. But here's the bottom line. While I respect your experience and wisdom, I don't think that there's a person alive who can definitively say "this is a waste of time" for something as complicated as carving board design. If 99% of the carving community said they thought so, I'd respect that, and I'd probably steer clear of whatever it was. Based on what I've read so far, it sounds like this board is pretty radical, and probably won't be that successful (especially at that elevated price point.) But there's some chance that it could be the next big thing, and there's no reason for people not to check to see if it is. And if it's other people checking (not you and me,) so much the better. We can profit if they find something cool, and not be troubled if it fails. On another note, it's annoying to see so much bile and rancour here. We carve for fun, and read this board for fun and to get better. Watching people have pissing matches just isn't fun (at least for me,) and doesn't serve to make anyone get better. Part of the progress of the sport is people exchanging ideas in a rich, respectful environment; that discussion can steer designers and purchasers towards new and better concepts. Arguing about past grievances only pushes that backwards. Regards, Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeronaut Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Things about BOL i KNOW to be true:3.Somewhere in every controversial thread SOMEONE will say " well how does that board, technique, or whatever work in the frozen east coast tundra? And this is a good thing. Dissemination of information is a good thing. A very good thing. Knowing how a board rides (or how well a technique or whatever works,) on east coast ice, deep powder, hero grom, crud, etc., is critical for someone trying to make an intelligent buying decision. If I had infinite cash, it wouldn't matter, but I don't, so I have to make decisions, and the better informed those decisions are, the more likely I am to spend wisely and have more fun. And I really don't want to try a technique, end up with a broken fibula, and then find out "oh yeah, everyone knows that doesn't work if X, ...." More knowledge is good. Spreading it around is good. Knowing that it's accurate and reliable is good. That's why we're here in BOL, at least in theory. Happy carving. Regards, Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 As private carver, who does not have infinite cash to spend, i like to spend my carving "experience" to reliable on top edge stuff. And that is why i have stuff on my quiver from Mike, Bruce and Chris. This is way to stay on leading edge and for me to get best carves with my bucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 So I've lost track here. What's going on? To defend older concepts that didn't work well, that now are standard, I'd like to bring up metal. Many boards manufactures used metal in their boards and it never really took of or made much of a differance. But now metal is pretty much the standard.....Once was lost now is found. Ski boot use for snowboard racing. Once considered a huge no, no. It was tried and worked OK for two run format, but not much for duels. Now there are a few athletes with world cup success using dabello ski boots. Trust me these guys can out carve anyone here, in any condition. Boards with extreme taper were standard in the 80's then went away for a while. Now the Fish type boards are THE boards to have for powder. And I'd also like to comment on the guys bringing up reason why rocker wouldn't work for some carving applications because they talked to some dude in the lift line with some rockered POWDER skies and he said they such on groomers. It's a POWDER SKI not a carving ski or snowboard. It is not intended for groomers, this has nothing to do with if rocker would work or not for a carving board. If I took a lib tech banana hammock and glued a peice of titinal to the top sheet you know what will happen? Not much the board is still going to suck on groomers and I would now know nothing new about what titinal does to a board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Bordy/phillfell, perhaps you can comment how board built with rocker is different to board which has lost its camber? It looks that some folks dont see difference there, do you :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Yeah a board built with rocker will have a shape designed around it and a flex pattern for it as well. A board ridden until it lost it's camber will just be flat not really rockers at all. And chance are it will be twisted also which will mean that it won't hold heelside as well anymore. To pre-empt what I mean by not holding heel side as well any more. Every old board I've seen when it has lost it's camber has also twisted slightly. If you are regular and put the board on the ground with the both edges of the tail touching the ground the toeside edge of the nose will be twisted off the ground. This means when you to to the heel side edge the nose of your board will have a slightly higher edge angle then the tail of your board. Causing the tail not to grip as well and slid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted December 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Thanks phill, it just looks that some think/compare rockered boards to board with lost camber. And my riding experience with both of them is in line with your comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Epic thread! Seen yesterday in SLC: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Epic thread!Seen yesterday in SLC: Now that Sir is FUNNY!!!:lol: Please don't tell me where! I don't want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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