Guest surlyone Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Here are some things to debate:<p> A skier is in a better body position in relation to the fall line (hips shoulders facing down hill) allowing for more efficient movements.<p> Snowboarders have to make larger movements to achieve the same performance a skier can make with more refined movements.<p> A skier can make the same size and shape turn as a snowboarder with more options regarding speed control = a skier can go slower or faster than the snowboarder with the same turn shape and size.<p> these differences are hightened and accentuated in the moguls = snowboarders have a harder time riding moguls than skiers. <p> there are lines more favorable to skiers...and more of them to carve them out leaving boarders to adapt to bumps more favorable to skiers.<p><p> what does everyone think? let the debate begin. <p><p> I imagine some of this isn't true for you hard booters.....but what about us riders with low angles and soft boots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 a)we dont go straight down the hill on a board. some of us go back up sometimes! b)we dont ride bumps really, and me personally I couldnt care less if Im good in them or not. I dunno...I can tell youre not trying to stir **** up but my opinion is: who cares! If skis work better for you, ride two of em! If a snowboard with hardboots gets your dick/nipples hard? more power! Short board, soft setup, duck stance? ROCK ON! at least its been a while since Ive been called a "fckin snowboarder" as if it were an insult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuffy Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 1. A skier is in a better body position in relation to the fall line (hips shoulders facing down hill) allowing for more efficient movements. hm...more efficient...debatable. But it's true that if you have low angles, looking over the front shoulder is difficult...even with higher angles, it's still harder than with skis: easier to get hit from behind. 2. Snowboarders have to make larger movements to achieve the same performance a skier can make with more refined movements. No. 3. A skier can make the same size and shape turn as a snowboarder with more options regarding speed control = a skier can go slower or faster than the snowboarder with the same turn shape and size. As far as I can tell, this is slightly true, due to a skier's ability to have their skis at different angles. However, a boarder can also modify their speed while still following the same turn shape and size. Just harder. 4. these differences are hightened and accentuated in the moguls = snowboarders have a harder time riding moguls than skiers. Actually, I'm pretty sure moguls are harder for boarders because we can't separate our feet and ride one up, one down...there's a lot of inherent stability in two skis far apart...perpendicular balance is more of an issue boarding. 5. there are lines more favorable to skiers...and more of them to carve them out leaving boarders to adapt to bumps more favorable to skiers. Hell no...boarders do more damage, heh. Except on race courses, boarders can (at least, good boarders) modify pretty much anything a skier can do to snow. Boards are just better at imparting force. 6. what does everyone think? let the debate begin. Hm...can't figure out how to answer this one now. Edit: Actually, last season I got sworn at a fair bit...a few times for pushing people away, and off my board in lift lines, a few times for carving _through_ someone's kicker (I wanted to do a carved jump off of it...they should have made it stronger...), and a few times for going back and forth on the hill, rather than straight down it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy D Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Originally posted by D-Sub who cares! If skis work better for you, ride two of em! If a snowboard with hardboots gets your dick/nipples hard? more power! FWIW: Skis and snowboards with hardboods get me hard all over; goosepimply too. :D I haven't put much thought into efficiency of motion/form, though it is an interesting (to me) argument. I think in certain situations, being on two edges is more beneficial/efficient/safer than one. But given current levels of skiing and snowboarding technology, skiing and snowboarding forms are very similar: I have seen skiers carving the fall line and snowboarders (alpine) carving the fall line, and until I see their feet or hands, I cannot tell if one is skiing or riding. For me it boils down to fun factor. As I said, both get me goosepimply. Both offer different sensations, but the exhileration is just as satisfying either way. Time to carve my longboard! Ooh, I'm all goosepimply just thinking about it! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Originally posted by surlyone Here are some things to debate:<p> A skier is in a better body position in relation to the fall line (hips shoulders facing down hill) allowing for more efficient movements. I'd agree with that. Snowboarders have to make larger movements to achieve the same performance a skier can make with more refined movements. For certain things. For others, the snowboarder is in a position to do some things skiers can't do. A skier can make the same size and shape turn as a snowboarder with more options regarding speed control = a skier can go slower or faster than the snowboarder with the same turn shape and size. Disagree. these differences are hightened and accentuated in the moguls = snowboarders have a harder time riding moguls than skiers. Your first two points apply here - the square shoulders and the ability to simply step from one edge to another makes skis the better tool whenever short, fast edge sets are required. But I still love to ride the bumps, even though I am in the clear minority of riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeez rule Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 we have electronic bindings you dont so skis must be better most skis have titanium so they have to be better my ski boots have carbon fibre, snowboard hardboots dont so skiboots are better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Skiers are like Fords and Snowboarder are like Chevys .. very similar argument don't you agree? So with that said since Chevys are better than Fords then Snowboarders are better than Skiers.. it is that easy.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ghostrider Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by C5 Golfer Skiers are like Fords and Snowboarder are like Chevys He's right..that about sums it up. Ford's got the mustang...its respectable thats for sure. But I tell ya one thing...its no 'vette. PS: I've said it before and I'll say it again... I can't help but think about the words of wisdom I once read from the sticker affixed to the mini deck of the youngest alpine board rider I've ever seen. And the sticker read: "Skiing is only for little fat kids.";) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest surlyone Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 facing down the fall line allows for symmetrical movements. maybe that describes the difference better than more efficient movements. however, does symmetry equal effeciency?<p> travelling up hill??? do you mean on the lift??? <p>drum roll please.....isn't hardbooting the inbred bastard child of skiing and snowboarding? <i>applause from the two softbooters in here</i> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 this is the deal with going uphill we can carve complete circles in the snow I have seen one skier do it after alot of work on it damn good skier too he was inspired by watching me and a another guy carved a circle around the group of kids he was doing a race camp with he said its real weird to do on skis because once your goin uphill at the top of the turn it gets real weird he said the only way to get it to work for him was to presure the front of the ski realy hard and put ALL the presure on the outside ski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest surlyone Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 circles.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 I dont mean the 'stang GT either I mean the GT 0 to 60 in 3.3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ghostrider Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Ok, I'll toss in a better reply than calling skiiers ford mustangs:eek: Here is what I think about the whole thing. The equipment you ride is designed to perform a specific task. However, for the general population, they assume that a certain tool is necessary to perform a specific task when in reality most of it comes down to the operator of the tool. (Random non-related analogy: Just because I buy a lathe doesnt mean I could make a louisville slugger at first...in fact i'd probably lose a few fingers. But with training, I could make a bat that sammy sosa could cork and slug away with...that was a burn to any cubbies fans out there. btw.) From the first official coaching I had in snowboarding I was taught the phrase "Operator Error." Blaming a fault, or lack of strength, in an area on your equipment is the easy way out. Can a hardboot out-turn a softboot? Probably. If the hardbooter practiced turning for a while until they knew how to truly work the physics of the board, could they keep up with a hardboot? Absolutely. In a picture of a snowboarder and a skiier, from the waist up, a skiier remains symmetric. Does a snowboarder? Not totally, but can they? Well the body rotates at the waist so the upper body should be able to move independantly of the lower. Can a hardboot go to the terrain park and pull a backflip like a skiier and a softbooter? Not on the first try. If they try it over and over, absolutely. (See W.M. - "Snowriders II"). So I'll step off my soapbox now, but bottom line is that it all comes down to who is driving the equipment and the training and experience they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest surlyone Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 I agree. Anything is possible on all equipment and to blame your equipment as the cause of inability is definitely a cop out. what about when someone elses equipment causes the rider error, or contributes to the difficulty of doing something with ease. Imagine this: two trails of identical pitch, width, length, fall lines, etc. One trail is closed for skiers and only rideable by snowboarders. The other is the opposite, and only available to skiers. The skiers and riders who ride the trails are each to the same ability level regardless of discipline. The trail is not groomed all winter and moguls form. Now switch trails and sliders. What happens? How is the shape of the moguls different between each trail and how does the different shape and skier line/snowboard line through the moguls effect the riders and skiers now that they have switched trails? Who gets the doo doo brown end of the stick in this deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ghostrider Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by bobdea I dont mean the 'stang GT either I mean the GT 0 to 60 in 3.3 3.3 maybe after some work..here is what the factorys are reporting... Z06 0-60 3.9 Braking 125 ft top sp 171 mph skidpad 1g drag .31 gt 0-60 3.8 Braking 117 ft top sp 190 mph skidpad 1g drag .43 Performance is pretty close when you consider that you could buy three Z06's before you pay off 1 GT.. My respect still goes to the corvette. The GT is too much like a Ferrari...both are fun, but better for just picking up chicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Surlyone, you're in a forum that's mostly dedicated to carving, so talking about moguls doesn't really apply. If, in your hypothetical, all the skiers and snowboarders were carvers, then there wouldn't be much, if any, difference in the moguls that would form. In fact, I'm not sure that <b>any</b> moguls would form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest surlyone Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 that is a cop out. I have seen a few booters in the bumps and I've seen em hit rails. They get my respect. Just because <i>you</i> limit yourself doesn't have any impact on the merit of this question does it? we all slide. and if you truly lay ruts in the snow where does the snow that was removed to make the rut go? it has to pile up right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ghostrider Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by surlyone what about when someone elses equipment causes the rider error, or contributes to the difficulty of doing something with ease. This is the word for the next lesson..."Adaptability." A good rider should also be in control in all conditions. It took me a while to realize this also. When I first was riding, I avoided hills with bumps because "I'm a hardbooter..we ride groomed stuff." Then this last season, I began to realize that a bump is a bump and part of the sport. If you have ever ridden a hill after a large group of very good GS skiiers do a warm-up run, you will notice one thing...no bumps, just the same lines in the snow that a snowboarder would leave...but twice as many. The skiiers that make those bumps also complain about the snowboarders who leave the trenches and vise versa. The experienced rider is on the hill riding through them all. So.. can a softboot ride moguls? yup. easily? eventually..have you spent much time in them to figure it out? can a hardboot? yea, Im still learning, but each time through it gets better and better. Is it tiring? youuuu betcha..but a few jogs around the block fixes that problem. can a skiier ride in trenches? no reason why not. The snow is still there and functional if the rider can adapt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest surlyone Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 forward and backwards what does a side by side slalom look like after they pull the gates and 100 skiers and riders have taken two runs a piece....don't even mention icing the course Adaptability amen to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ghostrider Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 I think that these adverse conditions you are talking about only levels the playing field. This is because no matter what gear you are riding, it is out of its designed element. That means that the use of the equipment is coming soley down to the operator. I get your "what-if" but since no ski or board is designed (or at least advertised) as being the best at riding a hill after a SL race, then it doesnt really matter what you pick. But even if the hill isnt as severe as that, then either way its a challenge of all your skills combined as the conditions deteriorate and the equipment leaves its optimal window of design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 powder even a narrow race deck floats better than your average pair of skis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by surlyone I have seen a few booters in the bumps and I've seen em hit rails. They get my respect. Me too. and if you truly lay ruts in the snow where does the snow that was removed to make the rut go? it has to pile up right? Here's my guess. When people skid turns, any small pile of snow will tend to slow the skid, and even cause the turn to finish. The snow dislodged by that skid gets heaped onto the small pile that caused the skid to slow or finish in the first place. As the pile of snow becomes bigger, the process accelerates until you end up with a mogul. Sure, when you carve you also displace the snow that until then was happily sitting in the rut you just made. But unlike a skidded turn, a carved turn <b>slices through</b> small piles of snow, breaking them up rather than adding to them. Assuming only carvers, these small piles of snow never build up (unless people happen to be making a turn at almost the exact same place, as in a race course). The reason why I attempted to restrict the argument to carving is that I think the distinction between carving and skidding is more important than the distinction between skiers and snowboarders, or the distinction between hardbooters and softbooters. All three types can carve as well as skid - it's how you ride, not what you ride that I'm interested in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vahur Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 For me ski vs. snowboard is easy to choose: I don't have any balance or dexterity skills and skiing was very hard to learn: skis got crossed with each other, poles got constantly in a way, after fall equipment was all over slope and it was hard to get back to skis on slope etc. With snowboard it's much easier: you have one plank attached to feets and all you have to worry, is how to stand on it. So, I consider, that snowboarding is for handicapped persons and people with real skill go with skis. Disclaimer: just kidding, of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Originally posted by surlyone A skier is in a better body position in relation to the fall line (hips shoulders facing down hill) allowing for more efficient movements. Compared to a regular snowboarder, yes, compared to an alpine snowboarder, no, body position is nearly the same. Snowboarders have to make larger movements to achieve the same performance a skier can make with more refined movements. same answer as above. A skier can make the same size and shape turn as a snowboarder with more options regarding speed control = a skier can go slower or faster than the snowboarder with the same turn shape and size. Physically impossible, if you're talking about carved turns. snowboarders have a harder time riding moguls than skiers. no argument there. so what? there are lines more favorable to skiers...and more of them to carve them out leaving boarders to adapt to bumps more favorable to skiers.<p><p> what does everyone think? let the debate begin. <p><p> I imagine some of this isn't true for you hard booters.....but what about us riders with low angles and soft boots? Don't ride bumps if you don't like them. Or switch to hardboots and a narrower board. Both are better in the bumps than softboots/freeride boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncermak Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Try them all...you can take something from each one and apply it to the others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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