redriver Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 From a couple of last year’s threads on heelside chatter and recent ones on stance width and setbacks, and now setting up my boards for this year, I hope you’ll help me with the following question from a relative carving novice: With a standard setback at 2 inches plus (corrected to 1"- see below) on a symmetrical board, if I mount my bindings centered on the inserts, with average hardboot angles, that puts my toes at about 2 inches ahead of the “setback center,” or basically centered on the sidecut radius of the board, which makes sense. Then if I apply pressure evenly to both cuffs, I’m pressuring the true center of the toeside radius, right? My heels, on the other hand, are now a total of 4+ inches behind center, and that’s before we consider the significant anchor that’s already hanging behind center (my butt). So now it seems I would be riding way in the back seat full time, or fighting always to stay up front. When I applied most pressure to my front foot’s heel last year, my problems with heelside chatter ended and every time they came back, I emphasized front heel pressure. Seems like I’d be better off moving everything forward an inch or so to balance the equation. Am I onto something, or is it fuzzy flatlander math? See diagram below- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK.inVt Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 One of the main purposes the hardboot/plate binding interface is to eliminate the difference in position of heel and toe. Your heels and toes are not applying pressure to the board, they are pushing on the bindings. The bindings are applying pressure to the board, so there is no difference between toeside and heelside. That is why asyms went the way of the dinosaur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 yep - your drawing above would make sense with standard highbacks, but if you change the footprint to the shape of the TD2/TD3 baseplate or the Catek baseplate, you will see a more centered and even distribution of force to the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 You heard it here first-asyms will be back someday. There's nothing symmetrical about the stance on a snowboard. But I chatter only on my toesides so there is something that we do not fully understand here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK.inVt Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I chatter only on my toesides so there is something that we do not fully understand here Your ankles are closer to your heels than your toes, so you are actually standing closer to your heelside edge. That is why you chatter only on your toeside edge and an offset sidecut (asym) will not fix that. Although, stiffening your boots can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 You heard it here first-asyms will be back someday. There's nothing symmetrical about the stance on a snowboard. But I chatter only on my toesides so there is something that we do not fully understand here I think that there's definitely some genius to asyms, but it has to be a logistical headache. Stocking goofys and regulars, and manufacturing them without ending up with left overs or coming up short. Just getting the quantities of sizes correct has to be hard enough. My question with the asym is...Why? I don't have any experience on the snow, but I spend way too much time reading, and I've gathered that metal and correct angulation will prevent 99% of chatter. The other 1 percent..so what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Your ankles are closer to your heels than your toes, so you are actually standing closer to your heelside edge. That is why you chatter only on your toeside edge and an offset sidecut (asym) will not fix that. Although, stiffening your boots can help. Seriously? I thought I'd try softer...at least with my rear foot. I'll crank down my BTS's a little bit and give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I think that there's definitely some genius to asyms, but it has to be a logistical headache. Stocking goofys and regulars, and manufacturing them without ending up with left overs or coming up short. Just getting the quantities of sizes correct has to be hard enough. Makes sense but if guys can stock diamonds or off shore racing boats then they should be able to stock asym boards. I want to find a "bring back the asyms" bumper sticker LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 One of the main purposes the hardboot/plate binding interface is to eliminate the difference in position of heel and toe. Your heels and toes are not applying pressure to the board, they are pushing on the bindings. The bindings are applying pressure to the board, so there is no difference between toeside and heelside. That is why asyms went the way of the dinosaur. yep - your drawing above would make sense with standard highbacks, but if you change the footprint to the shape of the TD2/TD3 baseplate or the Catek baseplate, you will see a more centered and even distribution of force to the board. Ok- I'll buy that arguement for the TD baseplates, but my F2s have a significantly longer "footprint" that takes the toe and heel pressure (I think) well away from the center- again about 2 inches each way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 and I'm not argueing at all for asyms (never had one), but trying to get my setup right on my syms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Makes sense but if guys can stock diamonds or off shore racing boats then they should be able to stock asym boards. I want to find a "bring back the asyms" bumper sticker LOL! Diamonds have a short supply and high demand. Asym snowboards have no supply, and next to no demand, who would want to make one other than a one-off? Pureboarding didn't make the #ONE very long before going to the pinstriped deck. Offshore racing boats aren't as much stocked as made after being ordered are they? I don't know anything about that. By the way- Your avatar caught my eye on MTBR, I see you ride 29ers too. Can't wait to see Jack's opinion on this Yeah, I got your sticker right here.. Sorry.. Couldn't help but do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 See diagram below- Sure, but where is your center of mass? I don't think foot placement matters anywhere near as much as where your navel is. And I don't think it moves around much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Diamonds have a short supply and high demand. Asym snowboards have no supply, and next to no demand, who would want to make one other than a one-off? Pureboarding didn't make the #ONE very long before going to the pinstriped deck. Offshore racing boats aren't as much stocked as made after being ordered are they? I don't know anything about that. By the way- Your avatar caught my eye on MTBR, I see you ride 29ers too. Can't wait to see Jack's opinion on this Yeah, I got your sticker right here.. Sorry.. Couldn't help but do it. Well, OK, I don't know anything about diamonds or off shore boats so maybe it's different with asyms....I was just thinking, stocking can't be the problem, they must just suck! One thing for sure, your anagram is freaking hilarious! Yes 29" wheeled bikes, they are really great, I don't feel like a gorilla on a tricycle with them. But I am thinking the new big thing in bikes might be the 26" wheel. Lighter, stiffer, stronger, and accelerates faster. I heard they used to use it in the past until everybody switched. I'm building up one of these bikes and will ride a bunch of time trials, 26 v 29 and will post a big ol'thread when I get some data (on mtbr). Might be just a fad but I'm going to check this little wheeled thing out :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBrad Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I solved heelside chatter by adding canting to the rear binding. Apparently I was twisting the board with the bindings flat. You might try experimenting with different cant/lift options to see if the chatter goes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I solved heelside chatter by adding canting to the rear binding. Apparently I was twisting the board with the bindings flat. You might try experimenting with different cant/lift options to see if the chatter goes away. Brad- Yes, looks like that would artificially put more weight forward (like when I pushed hard on my front heel to stop chatter), but seems like it would also move weight forward for toe side turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Well, OK, I don't know anything about diamonds or off shore boats so maybe it's different with asyms....I was just thinking, stocking can't be the problem, they must just suck!One thing for sure, your anagram is freaking hilarious! Yes 29" wheeled bikes, they are really great, I don't feel like a gorilla on a tricycle with them. But I am thinking the new big thing in bikes might be the 26" wheel. Lighter, stiffer, stronger, and accelerates faster. I heard they used to use it in the past until everybody switched. I'm building up one of these bikes and will ride a bunch of time trials, 26 v 29 and will post a big ol'thread when I get some data (on mtbr). Might be just a fad but I'm going to check this little wheeled thing out :) I agree with you, but which one is more fun, huh?! Just don't say anything around Cloxxki, he'll give you a ton of trigonometry just to make you flinch. ;) "Well in my country the 135 hub spacing give ample spoke angles..." Still waiting for Jack's commentary on this, he's always got something new to say about asyms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Sure, but where is your center of mass? I don't think foot placement matters anywhere near as much as where your navel is. And I don't think it moves around much. Nate- here's a quote from Sean McCarron's tech article on stance and chatter: We need to maintain even weight on both feet at all times. And assuming that using both legs equally through most of the turn is most efficient, then I'm going to say that my mass is evenly centered over the balls of my feet on toeside, and between the heels on heelside turns, which still seems to put me about 4 inches back of true center on the heelside. I can shift mass forward to compensate, but I'm wondering if it can be handled with stance/ setback adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 The chatter may be nothing more than a result of locking your knees on heelside, nothing to do with binding placement. If you think it might help, move the bindings forward and try it. Two inches setback is a lot, are you sure it's not one inch, so the measurements from center are two inches different from the front binding to the rear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK.inVt Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Ok- I'll buy that arguement for the TD baseplates, but my F2s have a significantly longer "footprint" that takes the toe and heel pressure (I think) well away from the center- again about 2 inches each way. I'm not really familiar with F2s, but TDs and Cateks are definitely more technologically advanced than most other bindings out there. Older style bindings had the toe and heel of the binding touching the board, that kind of defeats the purpose. Modern style bindings (TDs and Cateks) eliminate that problem. It just comes down to some bindings being better than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Chris- Yes- my couple-of-years-old Prior WCR looks like 1" setback, tho a recent post mentions a 2.5 and Prior's current WCR specs list 2.5. Also, my slalom board (163) measures a 1" setback (taper not considered, if they have any). Still, if I set up centered on the inserts, looks like I'm actually back of true center of the radius by about 3.5" on the heel side (the center of my F2 bindings to the center of the heel base is 2.5" back at 55- 60 degrees angle). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBrad Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 The Prior WCR setback is 2.5 cm, which is about 1". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Can't wait to see Jack's opinion on this Asyms are not unlike human sacrifice.... it seemed like a good idea at the time. Sure, but where is your center of mass? I don't think foot placement matters anywhere near as much as where your navel is. And I don't think it moves around much. Nate is right. And the footprint of the binding doesn't matter either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Glynn Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Redriver, you ARE onto something. The design of the asym put you on the center( or same point) of the board equally on either side. (Stocking did have a big impact on the demise of the asym.) Depending on the bindings you use the off centering on a symmetrical board, from heelside to toeside, will be more, or less, pronounced but it will still be there by a noticeable degree. On my TD1's there is about 6 inches of difference from my toeside to heelside edge pressure points. To make up for it the rider has to initiate heelsides more on the front foot. William Blake had many posts last winter on feeding the board through the turn front to back. He would do this with foot movement, not by moving the upper body over the feet, but pulling the feet back and then feeding the board through the turn by pushing (feeding) the feet(the board) forward. His posts were excellent and his descriptions where better than mine. But this feeding the board through the turn is crucial on symmetrical boards on a heelside turn because of the design elements that you are talking about. Good observation! Please don't forget that it( feeding) should be done both heelside and toeside but there is a difference in application. (Watch your toeside and don't load the nose!!) The more aggressive you ride the more important this technique becomes. Heelside chatter will become a thing of the past. Because good technique can easily overcome the design issues of the symmetrical board I doubt that the asym will ever make a comeback outside of the custom board market. I did like them though. Indian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Thanks for the correction- yes, 1" = 2.5 cm setback, not 2.5". Knew that didn't seem right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Not to beat this one to death, but I still have some trouble wrapping my mind around a couple of the responses: From Nate and Jack: Sure, but where is your center of mass? I don't think foot placement matters anywhere near as much as where your navel is. And I don't think it moves around much. Unless I'm tetering on a single axis on the center line of the board, or set up at 0 degrees across the board, or just rolling pressure from one side of the boots to the other, it seems that it does matter where the heel/toe pressure points are. And seems like my navel has to be constantly moving forward (on the heel side) and back (on toe side) on each turn to get my mass centered on the sidecut radius. And JoeK: I'm not really familiar with F2s, but TDs and Cateks are definitely more technologically advanced than most other bindings out there. Older style bindings had the toe and heel of the binding touching the board, that kind of defeats the purpose. Modern style bindings (TDs and Cateks) eliminate that problem. It just comes down to some bindings being better than others. Not buying that. I don't follow the circuit, but vendors mention that F2s are the choice of many World Cuppers, and my Race Titaniums aren't dinosaurs in the carving marketplace. Maybe this is less of an issue with TDs, but as David G. suggests above, it may still be an issue. I don't doubt that there are setup and technique compensators, and that's what I'm trying to get at... And thanks DavidG, I'll go back and read those posts. Here's an update on the diagram (I know I should just get out and ride): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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