BTS vs ACSS

[Surf Quebec]

Hi,

I'm switching from deeluxe (track700) boot to head boot (stratos pro).

I ride the deeluxe boots with the BTS which is developped officially for the deeluxe boots only.

Anyone have tested both the BTS and the ACSS systems ?

Thanks

[Sinecure]

I own both (plus two pair of head boots). Haven't installed either.

I need to get on that. Looking at the two, the BTS looks like a much more substantial, and better built option.

[queequeg]

Hi,

I'm switching from deeluxe (track700) boot to head boot (stratos pro).

I ride the deeluxe boots with the BTS which is developped officially for the deeluxe boots only.

Anyone have tested both the BTS and the ACSS systems ?

Thanks

I have the BTS on my heads. IMO, the heads are too stiff (stock) to take advantage of the flex properties that the BTS has to offer. The problem is that the HSP boot relies heavily upon the plastic flexing for its stiffness, bringing the flex/resistance of the spring somewhat out of play with the BTS.

That said: you can modify the heads to rely less on the plastic for their flex characteristics, and when you do, the BTS works quite naturally with them.

Here are some threads:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=194485

http://bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?

My experience:

http://bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showpost.php?p=190270

[Surf Quebec]

I've used the BTS 1 year and it's very well built. From the pictures I saw the ACSS is very close to the boot compared to the BTS.

Sinecure, let us know about your testing of the 2 products.

Queequeg, thanks for the links, I've done a lot of searching on bomber and on the extremecarving forum. I've read several posts about the cutting of the head boots .

The Head boots are stiffer but thats the price for no heel lift !

[queequeg]

The Head boots are stiffer but thats the price for no heel lift !

I've got to agree with you on that - I have no heel slip whatsoever in my heads. It took me a long time to get them comfortable and soften them up a bit (three different liners, boot-mods, tongues etc) but now that I have them sorted out I love them.

[Guest shrederjen]

How do you get rid of heel slip, with a smaller foot???

Jen

Besides an expensive boot fit???

[bobdea]

How do you get rid of heel slip, with a smaller foot???

Jen

Besides an expensive boot fit???

a boot that fits in the fist place before having to dump money into a fitting session.

this is why the thermoflex, other moldable and foam injection liners are the best shot these days if you're willing to spend the money up front for the boot and proper liner instead of going with a boot that does not have these features.

that said, the liner that comes with the head boots(only slightly moldable) is the best liner of all the snowboard specific hardboots I've seen so long as you can get it to fit your foot. the thermoflex is good as far as being moldable but is second rate compared to other options available on the market. the thermoflex packs out fast and needs to be remolded and never gives great support. still if you had to buy a boot online and had no clue about how the shell of the said boot fits the tflex might save you ass like it did with the stratos pros with me. the amount of work I'd need to do on that boot to make the stock liner work and the pain of break in would not be worth it really. but then I took the tflexes from my af700s and remolded them to the heads and I have a boot that fits me as well as any boot I have ever owned but is a fair bit softer than they are with the original Head liner, I still very much prefer the head liner in that it performs better but I can't take the pain after a couple runs.

there are a few things you can do for the heel lift, strategicly placed foam wedges always helped the most for me. also lifts under the footbed and the v shaped foam on the back of the heel pocket can help.

[snowboardfast]

Jen you should go to Larry if you can't fix the fitting problem yourself. I would agree that the thermoflex liner packs out quickly and I ended up replacing mine after 1 season. I went to Larry and it was worth the money. I will be going in this year to have my new liner refit as it has packed out after 1 season. If you have over 60 days on that original liner I would imagine that it is packed out and very thin as they compress a lot after a while. Mine was starting to give me shin bang because it was too compressed and thin. It is difficult to remold them after they are packed out too much. If your old liner is still good I would think you could get some fitting done for not too much money. I am using a Intution liner now and like it. Let us know when and where you will be riding in CO this year so we can do some turns! Good luck with your boot fitting.

[queequeg]

How do you get rid of heel slip, with a smaller foot???

Jen

Besides an expensive boot fit???

Sorry for the threadjack Surf Quebec:

Things I can think of that will help with heel slippage, without an expensive boot fit:

1) make sure your boots are the right size. Try them on with the liners out. If you can fit *any* more two fingers (stacked, nail-to-print) between your heels and the back of the boot when your foot is all the way forward in the boot (toes not crushed) the boot is too big. If you can't fit one, it is too small.

2) Make sure the boot fits your foot volume, some boots accommodate wider feet, some do not. Some have narrower heel volume, others do not.

3) use a decent insole, custom if you can afford it.

3) Make sure your ankle is aligned with the hinge between the boot cuff and the boot upper. You may need to use a wedge under your insole.

4) Take a bit of bootfitters foam, and put a *small* amount of it in the rear of the boot *above* your heel, such that it puts a bit of pressure against your achilles tendon when you are standing up straight in the boots. this foam should not extend down anywhere near the protruding part of your heel but rather, stop just shortly above it. (if you do step 5 - do this afterwards.

5) Get a pair of heat moldable liners (I am a big fan of the Dalbello Gold Liners http://www.dalbello.it/ID_Thermo.aspx) and get them molded properly, or do it yourself (http://www.yyzcanuck.com/E_tech_cooking.htm). Make sure to have a book under the toe of your boot while it is cooling, so that you drive your heel back, and make sure wear thin socks and not to buckle the buckles too tight when the liners are cooling.

Regarding the HSP boot and heel hold-down:

I'm no bootfitter but I've done a lot of experimenting with my Head Stratos Pros in the past year, trying to get them dialed in ... with regards to the HSP the instep strap is tethered and positioned such that the more you flex the boot, the further back it pushes your heel into the heel cup, and this seems to keep it planted down pretty firmly despite the relatively low cuff height. In my experience this is hugely positive *if* your liners are beefy, properly fitted and your heel is properly aligned with the boot hinge ... and intensely *painful* otherwise.

If you compare the strap positioning of the Deeluxe line with that of the Heads, particularly the instep strap, you will see a huge difference in the way things are being handled. On the Deeluxe line, there are two upper "cuff" straps, an instep strap and a toe strap. On the heads, there is one upper cuff strap, an instep strap, an arch strap and a toe strap.

The instep strap on both the heads and the Deeluxe's are both tethered to the stationary lower part of the boot but the differences end there. The head instep strap connects just above the hinge (rotational hinge connecting upper and lower) whereas the Deeluxe strap connects just below it. The higher the instep strap is positioned the more it will press against your shin/ankle as you flex (provided it is connected to the stationary boot lower). The lower the instep strap is the less it will pull your foot back in the boot. The more you flex the heads, the further back the instep pulls your heel into the boot, keeping it firmly in place throughout your range of flexion extension. I haven't ridden in a pair of Deeluxes, but it seems this effect would be minimized given their instep placement.

However, with this boot, if your liners are packed out or if you tighten the straps too tight when you are molding your liners you will end up with your heel pressing too hard against the heel of the boot and it will not be pleasant. I experienced this after a few days of riding with the Deeluxe "Speed" "HPD" liner in my heads, a beefy thick liner like the Dalbello Gold liner fixed that for me. Also it seems to me that you do not want to have your ankle hinge sitting significantly lower than the actual boot hinge as this will have a multiplying effect on the instep straps effects, so a heel wedge may be in order (as it was for me).

[Guest shrederjen]

Jen you should go to Larry if you can't fix the fitting problem yourself. If you have over 60 days on that original liner I would imagine that it is packed out and very thin Let us know when and where you will be riding in CO this year so we can do some turns!

Thanks for all the advise. Yes, I probably have over 60, er 80 days on these original liners. I am considering a boot fitting in about 6 weeks. Larry is the guy from what everyone says..... I have a pass for the Basin with 5 extra days here and there. I will also be hitting up the Boat in Jan and Crusty B. in April.

Sorry bout the thread jack, too. I have been on the BTS since Feb of last year. I really like how you can adjust it for different riding conditions. Oh yea, no more shin bang since I went to gel pads on the shins! http://www.bungapads.com/ They really work for me!

[Surf Quebec]

Like Quequeeg mentions in its post, take a boot that fits your feet (point 2), even with thermoflex liner and a bootfitter, if the boot is too big (wide) you will always have heel lift. Deeluxe track700 is wider than Head boots.

Also, using a spring system you put way more pressure on your feet then when using the locking rab, so a little heel lift becomes a big heel lift. In fact a spring system emphasize a wrong boot selection ...

So back to square 1, anyone has tested both ACSS ansd BTS on Head boots ?

So far, it seems that everyone who have customized their Head boots to the BTS are quit happy.

[queequeg]

Also note, Dalbello seems to make a liner that is particularly designed for a womans lower-volume heel area:

http://www.dalbello.it/ID_Thermo.aspx

(see "Silver Lady")

That said, it seems unfortunate that this feature is not available in the "gold" model that uses the thicker/stiffer foam and the "slide-in" system ... I'm wondering if the "silver" liners pack out more quickly than the golds.

Ok. No more threadjacking, I promise. :-).

SQ: have you asked this question on the extremecarving forums? It seems like there may be more people using Arnaud's system over the pond - so you may have better luck there.

[lonerider]

I have the BTS on my heads. IMO, the heads are too stiff (stock) to take advantage of the flex properties that the BTS has to offer. The problem is that the HSP boot relies heavily upon the plastic flexing for its stiffness, bringing the flex/resistance of the spring somewhat out of play with the BTS.

That said: you can modify the heads to rely less on the plastic for their flex characteristics, and when you do, the BTS works quite naturally with them.

I got Head Stratos Pro new last year, installed the BTS (required some basic drilling). Also found the shell to be too stiff and started cutting down the plastic wings as well.. I cut off most of it with a pair of metal shear and then buffed it (pretty poorly) with my dremel tool (I'm not really that DIY beyond basic toolwork) inclined. The DRAMATICALLY improved the feel of the boot in my opinion. I am going to ride is a bit more before I start sanding down the grey areas to remove the friction with the inner part of the shell.

I also got Conformable Foam Liner with it. Definitely no heel lift (a problem I've had since forever in hardboots... strangely... I managed to get softboots to fit me faster/better/cheaper than hardboots) although they are very painful to ride the first week (7 days) of riding. I only got about 7 days of riding in my new boots (out of ~35) so at the end of the season they were just starting to be tolerable for more than an hour.

[Arnaud]

Stephane,

I'm the builder of ACSS.

From the pictures I saw the ACSS is very close to the boot compared to the BTS.

Yes, you're right. ACSS is designed for HEAD only, unlike the BTS which was designed for Raichle / Deeluxe boots.

With ACSS, nothing is overpassing behind the heel, and this is better for laid backside turn with low rear angle.

the BTS looks like a much more substantial, and better built option.

Right also :(

BTS is made on CNC machine with high end surface treatment, while I do ACSS myself with a few manual tools ...

As mentionned above, for both system, it's absolutly necessary to customize the shell to take advantage of the spring effect.

You can download here a document with all cutting instructions.

Arnaud

[rhaskins]

Heel Lift: this is what worked for me. My boot fitter applied these "K" shaped rubber pieces on both my liners, and heel lift stopped. The K shapes reduce the volume above the heel, and the rubber grabs the outer plastic better than the liner. The fit was firm. These K pieces can be trimmed and shaved to adjust them. The pictures are of my left foot liner which is about 1/2 size smaller than my right foot. On the right foot we shaved part of the lowers thinner, and trimmed them up.

Rick