Racing Skates = Better Snow Racing

[wavechaser]

Just had my first snowboard GS of the season today, and man, what a difference a summer of skate slalom has made! I've never run lines through a snowboard GS, or generated speed by pumping, like I did today. I think it is because slalom skateboard racing is all about LINE...there is no skidding or sliding - get off your line and you are done...either slow or you finish with letters instead of numbers. The understanding of generating speed through the weighting/unweighting of skate pumping translates SO well to the snow. I've always known and done this on the snowboard of course, but I am better at it now than ever, because of the skateboarding. I also think the quickness you need in a slalom skate course helps you get better at faster edge to edge transitions on snow.

Bottom line - if you race snowboards, consider racing skateboards in the off season...you won't regret it!

[Gecko]

Though I didn't race as much as you, and until November when I bought Brian's cones I didn't have a decent set of cones for slalom, I did spend a lot of time on a speedboard this year which also has that hold a line don't slide thing going. I found this years adjustment to snow much easier and I am much closer to mid-season riding form than I expected...well excluding my legs endurance but even they are feeling better than they did at this point last year. Last year my only off season was pool/park skating which though fun didn't seem to have as much crossover similarity.

[Surf-Rodz]

The cross-over from one sport to another seems more natural than any other time in history. I feel mountainboarding, kiteboarding, surfing, wakeboarding and skateboarding all help and translate well to all forms of snowboarding.

I'm currently riding my 60" longboards with bindings and using kites with the snow decks.... A wider variety of riding possibilities which adds to the most important thing....THE FUN FACTOR.

Wayne

SZ

[John Gilmour]

You can skid in slalom skateboarding it does cause momentary cardiac arrest...lol

http://web.mac.com/nobelprize/Arboretum_Practice/The_Best_Run.html

Yes I think slalom skateboard racing and snowboard carving are such close sibling sports that I can not determine if I am cross training for one or the other.

As a kid I grew up in Manhattan on 72nd Street and Third Ave with a (then to me) "massive" hill of the smoothest grippiest tight grained 1970's asphalt made....(They don't use this stuff much any more because it is too soft for todays trucks and SUV's - so soft and fine that in hot summer sun your sneakers can leave tread marks in it) I rode OJ's which were for their size the grippiest wheels you could get- and a nice fibreflex slalom deck. Everyday gunning this hill to school I would try and lean over lower and lower at higher speeds. I even had a 13" mini board I made to fit in my school locker after skateboards were outlawed at Allen-Stevenson (my elementary school- ironically I was invited back to speak to the school about skateboarding and what it takes to succeed in a sport like skateboarding).

My goal was to go as fast and low as possible on the asphalt. In fact I had envisioned riding asphalt euro stye- nearly touching it. It was apparent to me that the shorter you went in board length... the harder it was to get low. And if you went too long... it also became harder to manage the traction with conventional wheels and trucks.

Well Snowboarding became the realization of the turning dream to go low and fast- and not get road rash at the same time.

I may be one of the few here at BOL that looks at Carving as way to get my legs strong for skateboarding- and a way to keep my nerve for downhill on skateboards.

I am here in Aspen... wondering.... if I can get the Aspen Ski Company to see how close these sports are..and hopefully to make some new friends here running cones in the off season.

Wanna turn a Madd 158 edge to edge as if swimming as naturally as a trout? Ride fast skateboard slalom courses in the off season.

The cool thing about the skateboard racing.. is the ability to see your stance evolve naturally.

I match my stance to the course being run- sometimes instantly changing it on the fly mid-turn within the course..... now that is FUN!

________

LEXUS LS

[Gecko]

I may be one of the few here at BOL that looks at Carving as way to get my legs strong for skateboarding- and a way to keep my nerve for downhill on skateboards.

The cool thing about the skateboard racing.. is the ability to see your stance evolve naturally.

I definitely agree about snowboarding helping you to keep your nerve for downhill skateboarding. My balls are bigger on pavement after snowboarding and my ability to comfortably adjust my line on 4 wheels is much better having done it often on snow.

I also understand what you mean by evolving/adjusting your stance, though my front foot rarely moves more than a few degree's my rear foot changes fore and aft and higher and lower angles depending on exactly what I'm doing...though I swore not to I've already adjusted my binding to better emulate my my skate stance

[wavechaser]

You can skid in slalom skateboarding it does cause momentary cardiac arrest...lol

http://web.mac.com/nobelprize/Arboretum_Practice/The_Best_Run.html

As a kid I grew up in Manhattan on 72nd Street and Third Ave with a (then to me) "massive" hill of the smoothest grippiest tight grained 1970's asphalt made....(They don't use this stuff much any more because it is too soft for todays trucks and SUV's - so soft and fine that in hot summer sun your sneakers can leave tread marks in it)

I am here in Aspen... wondering.... if I can get the Aspen Ski Company to see how close these sports are..and hopefully to make some new friends here running cones in the off season.

The cool thing about the skateboard racing.. is the ability to see your stance evolve naturally.

John - seen it before, but love that video...and on a what appears to be a Summer Ski no less!

Is that asphalt we rode at Antrim last fall close to the fine-grained stuff you are talking about? It's the best I've been on.

I'm sure you can get the COSS boyz to hook with you for some cone action this summer. I know Pappas and Dowd skate up in Summit County and I know they run this puppy sometimes just for fun:

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=15941

And with Indy open in the summer it is that much easier to get there.

You're right on with the evolving stance - I watched mine change radically over this past summer after getting back on slalom boards again. It was practically the old Turner/Piercy parallel stance in April/May...then total surf stance by October. I was lobbying hard at my alpine races over the weekend to get more of my snowboard racing brethren (heathen?) to come out and run cones next summer...might have some takers too!

Have fun out there!!

-Rick

[John Gilmour]

Well I'm on a roe unlimited Alex who filmed was on a Turner. I wish I had more footage.

I use Piercy's stance and modified parallel once in a while if the course and speed calls for it- which is rare.

I doubt you'll get that many snowboarders out there- many it seems are too scared of getting road rash. Which doesn't have to happen at all if you wear the right gear. In fact alpine snowboarding is far more dangerous than slalom skateboarding- we don't have many slalomers that hit trees or snowmaking equipment.

________

FORD EX SPECIFICATIONS

[Gecko]

I doubt you'll get that many snowboarders out there- many it seems are too scared of getting road rash. Which doesn't have to happen at all if you wear the right gear. In fact alpine snowboarding is far more dangerous than slalom skateboarding- we don't have many slalomers that hit trees or snowmaking equipment.

Right now I'm wrapping up an Indy 109 to send to GeezerX for massaging

whiners road rash doesn't really scare me. I just wish I could find someone to come out regularly and run cones with me who was better than me so I can learn more/faster. Part of the reason I Downhill so much is that I have a large crew of downhillers close by to skate with....well that and we have Wheelabrator

[Chubz]

John

Great video!!!!

I just got back iunto skating this summer and have been sticking to carving and bombing bigger hills. After seeing your video, it makes me interested in checking out slalom. I cant get over how fast you are turning. My question is when doing a course, is it more of a rhythm by learning the course or are you actually spotting each cone and turning it. Where are you looking when you do it.

Great vid

Greg

[John Gilmour]

Well its almost like typing.. You aren't thinking about each letter ...you are composing in sections.

So You typically walka course and think about how the course was set...what approach to use for each section.

At this sort of speed I am not worrying so much about making each cone- but making sure my center of mass is in the proper spot for key points in the course. In some instances that means that my center of mass is not in the optimal point for each cone...but in a place that will allow me to make the next 5 cones without blowing out of the course.

The fantastic thing about skateboard slalom is that the course typically does not change from run to run...only Sun has an affect on how the asphalt behaves. Instead of Waxing- we just clean bearings...and pick the correct wheel size and duromoter of wheel (Hardness per course).

Times between racers can be thousandths of seconds..I have even tied before.

What you were watching there was not even tight slalom. But it was a looser spacing that I ran fast enough to appear like tight slalom. In that video no cone was closer than 7 feet.

True TS uses a shorter board and slightly tighter spacing though in the past years the Pro TS courses have been set too tight IMHO. I would rather have them set faster tech TS than overly tight TS.

GS is very strikingly similar to Snowboard GS.

________

Winning

[wavechaser]

You typically walk a course and think about how the course was set...what approach to use for each section.

And unlike snowboard racing, you then get multiple practice runs - to dial in your choice of board, trucks, wheels, bearings, bushings - and even stance - to suit the course!

The fantastic thing about skateboard slalom is that the course typically does not change from run to run...only Sun has an affect on how the asphalt behaves.

NO course deterioration! Starting position one has no advantage over starting position 100! NO RUTS!! In fact, the later you run, the more you might learn watching the racers before you and/or listening to their post-run comments (depends somewhat on the level of the race).

What you were watching there was not even tight slalom. But it was a looser spacing that I ran fast enough to appear like tight slalom. In that video no cone was closer than 7 feet.

True TS uses a shorter board and slightly tighter spacing though in the past years the Pro TS courses have been set too tight IMHO. I would rather have them set faster tech TS than overly tight TS.

The Europeans like the really tight stuff. The TS at the Worlds this year had 5.5 foot spacing up top, on a really steep fast hill - and the top euros were complaining it wasn't tight enough! I'm with John on this one - I'd rather a challenging technical set than just tight for the sake of tight. Only 27 of us even made it through qualis and into the brackets at the Worlds in the Am class...eveyone else DQ'd on cone counts (12 cones hit max - 13 and you are DQ).

[Hollywood 90210]

Rick, I am glad you are out there selling slalom to the snowboard racers. I remember sitting in the bar at Loon with Rick after a snowboard race talking about skateboarding and skateboard racing. He was already on the fence thinking about it and it didn’t take much of a push to get him started. My push came from standing in the lift line at Waterville when this guy came up to me on a alpine snowboard and started talking to me about slalom skateboarding, in case you haven’t already guessed it was John Gilmour. I convinced one of the younger riders that I have been snowboard racing with for the past few years to start skateboard racing. It has seemed to make a difference in his snowboarding this year. I have taken Greenwood, Pogue and Thorndike out for some slalom skating and they were all great right away, a few more sessions and each would be able to run any course that I could run and probably spank me as well. I think it was Greenwood that said to Anton “we should have been doing this when we were on the team (US Snowboard Team)”. As for me the best thing that it does is keeps me moving during the summer, it makes me feel very balanced when I get back on the snow and there are almost no lost days getting back to where I left off last season. From a value stand point, for about the price of a weekend of snowboarding $250 (gas, lift tickets and food) you could get a complete slalom skateboard, a set of pads and 7 months of cross-training fun.

[willywhit]

you guys might know the deal on this online 'zine about slalom and the seamy underbelly of the "scene" surrounding these "crittlers".

http://criddlezine.com/criddlezine_1-2/Criddle_Zine_1-2.pdf

[wavechaser]

Rick, I am glad you are out there selling slalom to the snowboard racers. I remember sitting in the bar at Loon with Rick after a snowboard race talking about skateboarding and skateboard racing. He was already on the fence thinking about it and it didn’t take much of a push to get him started.

Full disclosure - as part of the push, Glenn GAVE me a deck to get started, which I raced GS on all season! Thnaks again!

From a value stand point, for about the price of a weekend of snowboarding $250 (gas, lift tickets and food) you could get a complete slalom skateboard, a set of pads and 7 months of cross-training fun.

Yup...until you get "the bug" and start looking at $175 CNC racing tucks and foam core carbon decks and ceramic bearings and traveling to races all over creation...but it is still less expensive then snowboarding.

GC - hope to see you at the Ragged and Gunstock alpine events, if not before...I can't make Loon because we have Souther VT races that weekend. Hoping to hit either Wachusett or Shawnee Sunday, depending on the snow or lack thereof!

[wavechaser]

you guys might know the deal on this online 'zine about slalom and the seamy underbelly of the "scene" surrounding these "crittlers".

http://criddlezine.com/criddlezine_1-2/Criddle_Zine_1-2.pdf

Willy - I wrote and provided photographs for the article on the Dovercourt Open (2007 Canadian Nationals) in the upcoming issue...whenever Mr. Surly and crew get around to publishing it! It will be available at www.criddlezine.com.

[willywhit]

Rick,

very cool stuff. dug a little deeper, these guys are from NC.

is there a Vol 1 #1 ? - looks like they've only done a few of these.

long live desktop publishing, who needs a printing press ?

SK8 ON !

edit:

quick question....for JG , realy.

isn't a "criddle" a sacrificed cone ? as in, hitting a cone on purpose to get a better time ? nuthin in google, urban slang, etc.

pretty sure JG went over that strategy coaching slalom with us. I think you can hit 2 cones and any more costs ya a time penalty.

"The Criddler"

[wavechaser]

Rick,

very cool stuff. dug a little deeper, these guys are from NC.

is there a Vol 1 #1 ? - looks like they've only done a few of these.

long live desktop publishing, who needs a printing press ?

SK8 ON !

edit:

quick question....for JG , realy.

isn't a "criddle" a sacrificed cone ? as in, hitting a cone on purpose to get a better time ? nuthin in google, urban slang, etc.

pretty sure JG went over that strategy coaching slalom with us. I think you can hit 2 cones and any more costs ya a time penalty.

"The Criddler"

Mr. Surly (aka Carl Crieder), the CriddleZine publisher, is an original "Downhillbilles" member - they put on the slalom Worlds down in Statesville last September. I think V1 is long gone...it was a paper edition

(My Worlds photos - http://cloudtenweb.com/events/worlds2007/worlds2007_slideshow.html)

To "criddle" is to hit a cone on purpose to gain a better line or time, when you feel the hit cone penalty (usually .1 or .2 seconds per cone) is worth the gain by the criddle. Most races have a cone DQ limit - say 12 cones hit and you get letters instead of numbers - but EVERY cone hit, up to the DQ limit, incurs the time penalty - there are no gimme cones time-wise. The cones are always set within a chalked circle around the cone's base. You can hit a cone and have it still touch any part of the circle without it falling over, and there is no penalty - but if it ends up outside the chalk circle it is considered a hit cone. Additionally, you must always pass around the correct SIDE of the cone if it remains in the circle - so if you choose to criddle, you MUST be sure to REMOVE the cone from the circle entirely. If you pass on the wrong side of the cone in an attempt to criddle it, and brush it but do not blast it out of the chalk circle, it is a DQ run...much like missing or straddling a gate in a snow race. Make sense?

[Terryw]

The cross-over from one sport to another seems more natural than any other time in history. I feel mountainboarding, kiteboarding, surfing, wakeboarding and skateboarding all help and translate well to all forms of snowboarding.

I'm currently riding my 60" longboards with bindings and using kites with the snow decks.... A wider variety of riding possibilities which adds to the most important thing....THE FUN FACTOR.

Wayne

SZ

Where did you get the spin bindings? Those look like great fun.

[John Gilmour]

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5094&highlight=criddle

The funny thing about criddles.....

a good racer or announcer when he spots one

...particularly if it is a clever one...

says "Wow Amazing"

while the crowd says "Awwwww too bad"

Part of the fun of being a course setter is setting cones that smarter racers SHOULD chose to hit. Sometimes it is the wiser older racers that see them easiest and the kids are left to wonder which ones are worth it. The clean line may not be the fastest one...which is killer because then racers are not bound to the same course line.. (Yes you could go wide... but this is a whole other thing) here you have to weigh the penalty...

Do the crime if its worth the time.. (similar to Barretta's theme song)

You might decide it is worth it because even though you don't gain a .1 sec right away you might earn it over the length of the course.. and at the very very very end... it had better be worth it.. In some courses a criddle might not be worth it early in the course.. but perhaps later after a braking cone.. to help acceleration- or if you need to avoid scrubbing.. you might want to think about it. Some cones are worth it for some racers and some are not for others. That is why it is really a great thing if the announcer takes a run though the course and understands it- then he can dig into the minds of the racers and explain what iS REALLY going on....

After a while some of the spectators start to know which cones are good for criddling for what ability levels...and they watch and nod- or give advice to others- they really start to get involved and try to look at the course through the eyes of the racer and not just as a passive spectator.

There is a lot of strategy in slalom skateboard racing.. particularly in TS...and surprisingly some in Super G too. When I announce I try to cover as much as possible without blowing it for the racers on deck... I never have enough time to cover everything... there is just so much going on...so many wheel changes- gear changes, board changes, stance changes, clothing changes, false start psyche outs... different lines- fake outs... energy conserving moves etc... lots and lots of fun.

________

Tf104

[Gecko]

admittedly I'm a Slalom noob but I just look at Criddling as excepted cheating...It takes advantage of the buffer of allowing a few misses and exploits it. Clean lines mean more to me I guess than the speed that could be gained from not making every cone.

[wavechaser]

admittedly I'm a Slalom noob but I just look at Criddling as excepted cheating...It takes advantage of the buffer of allowing a few misses and exploits it. Clean lines mean more to me I guess than the speed that could be gained from not making every cone.

I see that angle...but it's cheating WITH a penalty incurred. Bet you wouldn't want a clean line and end up in fourth place, when you could have criddled and been on the podium! Rulez is rulez. I love the challenge of having to figure out where to do it and what your gain would be. Sometimes the gain might not be time, but the ability to keep skin on certain parts of your body...so you'd have that going for you...which is nice. ;)

[John Gilmour]

Hmm.. well willywhit... you don't get two free cones.. eery cone carries a penalty. IN some grass roots racing without timing systems they allow up to a certain number of cones hit without penalty and then one more and it is a dq ...but in a real race... every cone hit adds to your final time.....or does it???

well there are more than one course to run when you drop down a skateboard slalom course...

There is a course where you come within .5mm of every cone for the tightest penalty free line.. or wider... maybe even slower- unless a gate is set intentionally too tight to force a wider line.

And there is a much tighter line. Where you can come within .5mm of missing each cone (Up to the DQ amount) . This is far FAR FAR riskier and takes more skill and confidence in your accuracy.

If you miss even one criddle... you automatically lose. If you hit a few cones mid course by accident...you might not have enough cones before DQ left for the criddle you really need later in the course..If you criddle a cone by smacking it dead on...well you may as well not have bothered to criddle because you give up over 1/2 of the advantage of hitting it on edge.

So on a course with say 65 cones and a DQ allowance of 6... Which 6 cones do you hit. Do you hit 0,1,2,3,4,5,6 in total and which of the 65 cones... if any?

If you mess up your line and hit a cone by mistake- or you realize you are going to hit it by mistake... You may as well hit the inside to get a faster line if you can handle it. If you do hit one by mistake in our run... MID RUN you might decide NOT to criddle for instance the next cone...but to criddle another later in the course... gotta make these changes on the fly- wile watching the guy beside you...

Simple courses don't need any thinking..and they are not nearly as exciting.

Nothing is more wild than seeing a racer known for running clean with say A .05 sec advantage going into the next run...he thinks the second lane he is racing in is slower in the dual so he is worried and intentionally criddles a cone to get more speed to make up for it ... knowing full well that his .05 sec advantage is still really a disadvantage as no two courses are exactly the same (His first course might have been .05 seconds faster on average anyhow) ...and he is now on the slower course... going for broke.. Sometimes people who run with a faster time in the faster course first are at a psychological disadvantage. I've lost a race or two because of it. I decided to try and run very clean and preserve my "advantage" not realizing it was the slower course for my second run,...and lost.. Instead I should have run wild and not worried about a criddle or two...

There are great skaters in slalom.. and you might be very surprised to find out how much they think about going into the course. Pirnack puts himself in Play... he calls it "Going video game on it" in that he makes himself go into play like a video game character in the course.. a mutant 1/2 man 1/2 machine slalom racer that assumes a completely alien like type of locomotion.

I've seen Gary Fluitt intentionally criddle to try and alter his opponents line. as spectators we find it brilliant- and also unnerving...that people can still rethink strategy while doing 5 cones per second.

Jason Mitchell might just seem to go "Animal" on a course.. but if you hear him talking coming up the hill..he is thinking just as much as everyone else about where to find the speed...maybe even more...which is why he wins so often...

I gotta think that both Mark Fawcett and Jaysey Jay Anderson would make great slalomers- because they are great at reading courses and making split second decisions. Peter Bauer would be another interesting one to watch. The funnest one I bet would be Kildy.

Anton Pogue was slaloming a little with the Chapmans in New England.

I would like to have a regional challenge of ski areas. Aspen VS Summit County VS Vail...

With a three county race series in the fall- sponsored by the ski areas... to get people to remember that snow is coming....

hell why not challenge New England and Tahoe to race too?

But first..a Colorado Snow area series.. that would be nice.. but that is another thread.

________

Rz engine

[wavechaser]

...The funnest one I bet would be Kildy.

Anton Pogue was slaloming a little with the Chapmans in New England.

I would like to have a regional challenge of ski areas. Aspen VS Summit County VS Vail...

With a three county race series in the fall- sponsored by the ski areas... to get people to remember that snow is coming....

hell why not challenge New England and Tahoe to race too?

But first..a Colorado Snow area series.. that would be nice.. but that is another thread.

Kildy on a slalom skate...now that would be downright dangerous...and as you say FUN TO WATCH!

I'm sure the COSS guys would help you get a snow area series going. Have you seen Joe Mac, Martin and Zak race yet? They'll all be pro next year...look out. Pappas, Pirnack, Mitchell, Fluitt - geez, Colorado is LOADED! I'll be at Copper for the USASA Nats to defend my Legends SL and Overall Alpine titles in early April...lets try to hook if you are still out there. Maybe a little extra-curricular outlaw skate slalom in the front range after the snow racing is done?

[John Gilmour]

Have you seen Joe Mac, Martin and Zak race yet? They'll all be pro next year...look out. Pappas, Pirnack, Mitchell, Fluitt - geez, Colorado is LOADED!

I was the announcer for Nationals in colorado the year before last.So I have seen everyone skate except Pappas- who we all know is a long term snowboard veteran back from when he was in International Snowboard Magazine by Tom Hsieh.

The Macs are really fast. I think it is fair to say that Colorado now OWNS slalom skateboarding.... you gotta wonder what happened to California?

________

Vaporizer instructions

[wavechaser]

I was the announcer for Nationals in colorado the year before last.So I have seen everyone skate except Pappas- who we all know is a long term snowboard veteran back from when he was in International Snowboard Magazine by Tom Hsieh.

The Macs are really fast. I think it is fair to say that Colorado now OWNS slalom skateboarding.... you gotta wonder what happened to California?

I think Cali, with the obvious exceptions, went all X-Games on us. Which is cool - I'd skate more vert still if my body would let me. Did you see that thread here about the longboard run between Copper and Frisco? Pappas and Dowd run it a lot.

Up my way, in Northern VT, I've got to know the Canadians really well. Mig (truly unbelieveably agile for a big man), Civ, Rookie and Raylene, Seb and Emilie, Louis, Danilo and Julie, Pierre G., and of course King Claude, all are excellent skate slalom racers. Look out for Louis Ricard next year, and a kid named Luke Melo. The downhillers up there are all good too...I love racing north of the border!