Racing Skates = Better Snow Racing

[John Gilmour]

I think Cali, with the obvious exceptions, went all X-Games on us. Which is cool - I'd skate more vert still if my body would let me. Did you see that thread here about the longboard run between Copper and Frisco? Pappas and Dowd run it a lot.

Up my way, in Northern VT, I've got to know the Canadians really well. Mig (truly unbelieveably agile for a big man), Civ, Rookie and Raylene, Seb and Emilie, Louis, Danilo and Julie, Pierre G., and of course King Claude, all are excellent skate slalom racers. Look out for Louis Ricard next year, and a kid named Luke Melo. The downhillers up there are all good too...I love racing north of the border!

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4276

All the guys you mention were at the race above.. Listen to the NPR wav clip of National public Radio.. what fun.. I"m announcing in the background ...

Rookie aside it was on of the best days of his life.. Raylene was stoked too. This was the First Antrim race sponsored by Crotched Mountain Ski area. Just the start of what I hope will be more ski area involvement.

MIG is incredibly fast- he used to be faster on the Snow when he rode with Jaysey Jay Anderson- but at the time Mig had more experience. He is an awesome guy to hang out with. All the Canadians had a great time and this race has about 1/2 the top people from Canada and 1/2 from the USA so it is always a great contest!

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Royal star venture

[Gecko]

ha...I spent a couple hours running cones today because I didn't want to ride slush the local hill has become. Anyway in the middle of my skating a snow squall blows through and my cones go flying. I quickly reset everything doubled up and continued to skate, getting faster and faster as the snowflakes plastered me but didn't seem to stick to the ground. The sun finally came back out but the wind stayed strong down course making for a great roll in to every run. I've never run so tight a course and after punting cones every run for an hour it was during the snow that I finally got the sync for such a tight course. After that I'd run a clean about every other run of punting a cone or two. It was fun to clean up afterwards and see the track down the street without the cones.

[Chubz]

Gecko

thanks for sharing. great imagery. any passers by must have thought you were insane. Jesse and i need to get a set of cones for this summer.

I have been contemplating skating on those off days, but most of my spare time has been dedicated to working on my board graphics and catching up on some pre-orders I got at the end of last season. My dad found a Brady bunch style fire pit recently at an auction, so I go outside build a fire in the pit, crack a beer and tinker in the garage on the boards, mostly sanding and shaping.

I can only stand being in the house so much, today we had a couple of those windy squalls come in, so it was funny to see the boys riding their bikes in the driveway while the wind is swirling around with heavy snow.

Our snow here in PA has been shotty at best this season/

[Gecko]

Spend the money on Good Cones....I used a set of cheap Walmart special cones for most of last year....don't make that mistake. They are only good if you are really clean, if you hit one it will wrap around your wheel Which means have to set really open courses...this doesn't help you learn at all and I often found myself wanting/needing to double and triple pumping between cones just to keep speed. In November I bought Brian Peck's 3DM cones before he moved to Vancouver (fund raising and shedding excess baggage) and noticed immediately how much better and faster I got when released from the requirement of making a clean runs. I am able to work on getting better and pushing myself, though punting cones is annoying regardless if replacing them is easy. BTW 50 cones in 2 colors is perfect for practice though make sure you mark them before you interact with anyone else's cones, I marked mine with stickers from the local skateshop, a big 7.

as a side note while I sometimes skate the parking lot of my local high school but my favorite place is an incomplete housing development with a perfectly paved loop hill. I switch off which side I set my course on often because of the wind...so sadly I didn't have anyone to watch me

[John Gilmour]

Also if you come across any original cones from specialty molders in the 1970's they were the best- never get caught under a wheel- they are also lighter to carry and stack smaller.

3DM cones are great too.

If you are afraid of hitting cones you will never get fast because you can never get close to the cones. A great racer often is within 1/4 of every cone.

Set courses that are tight for you to make- it ill make you run closer to the cones. Don't bother running much under 6.5 centers though...that will only slow you down.

________

Vaporizers

[wavechaser]

Don't bother running much under 6.5 centers though...that will only slow you down.

JG - just wondering why you say this...because many of the TS courses I have raced are tighter, especially if the euros are involved. I agree with your point about speed - but I feel it is important to practice 5.5 to 6 if that is what you will be faced with at races. The TS at the Worlds was super-tight and steep this year and I found myself wishing I'd trained even tighter courses over the summer...and Ramon and Dom still thought it was too loose for their tastes!

[Gecko]

Honestly I'm not a fan of TS, I prefer the wandering, flowing nature of HS I set my courses at about 6 toe/heel steps straight and about 7 when I offset

[John Gilmour]

I've always ben an advocate of fast tight courses but not so tight that they limit top end speed.

Really tight.. under 6.5 foot-- well lets leave that for flatland. (And then I won't go to any flatland contests)

CB likes to set courses that tight- I personally don't care for them because they do not allow for any sort of body angulation as they your legs would tilt and clip cones at that spacing if technical aspects that really involve angulation were introduced.

Its an ok drill to run stuff that tight but also I feel in the long run it isn't great for your body either and can lead to repetitive stress- since your body is doing exactly the same movement over and over. Both Keith Hollien and Luca run very tight courses often- both have had back issues (Keith's developed a long time ago- Luca's a few years ago). Some poeple have avoided that... like Simon Levene- who is perhaps the fastest TS racer on a hill-- how did he avoid it... He RARELY practiced. Sweeney also ran super tight- but he ran offset technical super TS courses that required slide for every other cone... he has no back issues...he also rode a 26 inch steve cathy rocker model upside down .... no one else could make his courses. Also they ran relatively slow under 12mph.

Also overly tight courses can make it harder for certain boards to make it through the- even TS boards by a few manufacturers.. Like for instance... Turner.. the old Turners would have real difficulty running anything very tight..the Roes... no problem...and hte turners had tiny wheelbases..make them any smaller and they were very unstable and hard to ride.. Also they become useless for everyday riding.

so my 2 cents on super TS.

________

X VIDEOS

[Civ]

Nice to see this thread. There really isnt anyone out there with more slalom knowledge than mr JG. I can remember racing with him at the Farm race in 2003, and seeing him at the gathering in 2002 when I first tried the sport.

Slalom racing is such a good way to cross train, I snowboard as a way to keep fit for the summer race season. The skill set is so similar.

Thanks for getting this talk stated Rick.

Ill add another vid, this is from the finals of the Canadian Nationals from last season.

Thats Adam Shwippert on the left, a really talented young guy from VT, and a total ripper on an alpine board. Thats my crusty ass on the right.

[wavechaser]

Nice to see this thread. There really isnt anyone out there with more slalom knowledge than mr JG. I can remember racing with him at the Farm race in 2003, and seeing him at the gathering in 2002 when I first tried the sport.

Slalom racing is such a good way to cross train, I snowboard as a way to keep fit for the summer race season. The skill set is so similar.

Thanks for getting this talk stated Rick.

Ill add another vid, this is from the finals of the Canadian Nationals from last season.

Thats Adam Shwippert on the left, a really talented young guy from VT, and a total ripper on an alpine board. Thats my crusty ass on the right.

Note: Civ's "crusty ass" beat the "really talented young guy from VT" in that comp...don't let him fool you.

Schwippy gave up alpine snowboard racing this winter to hang in the pipe, but plans to race on the skates again next summer.

I'm psyched for Ottawa again!

[John Gilmour]

Sometimes you give tips to slower racers...and then they become unbelievably fast...

Then you hope they don't ask to many other pertinent questions for you to answer. Both Schwipp and Civ- reached this years ago..

I would say both Civ and Adam are perfect examples of people progressing faster by cross training similar sports. The course consistency of slalom skateboarding lends itself to experimenting with different set ups and strategies. since times are nearly repeatable within a few 1/10's of a second sometimes within 1/100ths it is easier to see what is improving your ability in skateboarding than snowboarding.

in the end- running a technical skateboard slalom course at speed is more enjoyable than running gates snowboarding- mostly because you can set the exact same course the following day or slightly loosen a difficult course which due to ruts isn't feasible with snowboarding. The pavement is not affected in the same way the snow is.

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Weedtracker

[wavechaser]

Skate slalom racers and those who might be...don't miss this race:

http://www.ncdsa.com/contest_registration.asp?ContestID=351

Sign up now!

Antrim is currently the BEST skate slalom race in the northeast, and one of the better ones in the US. And this year it has ISSA "Prime" status points sanctioning, a third race added Friday night under the lights, and an even more diverse and talented field expected than previous years. WR IV usually races, and Lynn Kramer has signed up this year. Lotsa fast Canadians too!

There are free dinners and breakfasts certain days, a parade you get to be IN, fireworks Saturday night, great camping with free beer and parties, nice awards, MONEY, and the best pavement and runout around. The "A" class GS is 720 feet long over two rolls, and the dual Hybrid is 520 feet. A ridiculous bargain for the entry fee!

[Scuff]

Dangit you guys! I don't need another hobby! :)

All of this talk has me totally convinced - I'm going to pick up a

board with wheels this summer.. just not sure what kind.

Haven't been on a skateboard in ~14 years...I'm sure that it will all come

back to me after a day, and be a blast!

[Chubz]

Scuff

you wont regret it, I got back on one after 20 years off and I can honestly say I got disappointed when it got a touch too cold to go skate. I wasnt even getting the carving itch like most years.

I mostly stuck to downhill carving, tucking for speed and a little sliding, but these guys have me looking at cones for next summer in between my deck builds.

Many great boards out there and these guys are well informed.

search

hit the mother road

for my first big descent this past summer.

Start planning now, its just around the corner.

good luck with it

[wavechaser]

Dangit you guys! I don't need another hobby! :)

All of this talk has me totally convinced - I'm going to pick up a

board with wheels this summer.. just not sure what kind.

Haven't been on a skateboard in ~14 years...I'm sure that it will all come

back to me after a day, and be a blast!

Yes you need another hobby.

Yes you should pick up a board.

Yes, it will all come back to you after 14 years...it did for me after 22!

Yes, you will have a blast.

Look at Richy Carrasco's completes as a place to start for slalom decks - Axe II or 2.5 is a good all-arouind deck

http://www.sk8kings.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=SK8KINGS038A&Category_Code=C

http://www.sk8kings.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=SK8KINGS038&Category_Code=C

...get it with Tracker Trucks RTS rear and RTX front (unless you want to spend $300+ on trucks right away :)). Get 70mm ZigZags for wheels - Lime 80a in back, Lemon 83a or Orange 86a in front. Don't skimp on bearings if you intend to race, spend at least $30 on a set - $70+ for ceramics. Get a boxed set of all the different Khiro truck bushings, the boxed set of Khiro rail wedges, and a box of Khiro assorted mounting hardware, if you think you'll be serious right off the bat.

Go here:

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB/index.php

And here:

http://www.ncdsa.com/

And here:

http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/index.php

Keep the wallet handy!

-Rick

[Gecko]

I'm with Chubz I prefer speed and carving but cones is fun and easy to set up, the challenge is immediate and straightforward and the cost for missing a cone is less painful than missing a gate though the thrill of making a clean run is the same. Slalom can be nearly as expensive as alpine snowboard (take Rick's Gecko for instance) but it can also be done much cheaper sk8kings

well it looks like rick beat me to it,

but I do have a few disagreements with his eagerness...$7 speedy lunatics roll the same as $30 bearing and if you treat them well they will last as long...Ceramics are really only worth the money it you skate in a moist/wet climate. Dumping your bank account into skateboards (especially slalom and downhill) is easy but excluding a traction rear truck, your money is best spent getting to sessions, races and events.

[wavechaser]

The Gecko deck ($260) costs less than a quarter of an equivalent top-shelf alpine racing snowboard ($1200)...and in general I think skate slalom racing is a good bit less expensive than alpine snowboard racing.

TP - the reason I mentioned $30 on the bearings is strictly for racing...in a sport where you can get beat by .001 or even .0001, I want my bearings to be top notch. And much like putting a layer of flouro juice on a race board for acceleration in the first 10-15 seconds, top-shelf ceramics will roll up to speed slightly faster than other bearings, assuming cleaning and lubing are of the highest quality too.

Gecko is right about a rear "traction" truck being the first Upgrade to consider...real 8mm axles (as opposed to 5/16ths) in perfect alignment piercing the plane of the kingpin are like having a racing suspension and steering system on a car. Lets you generate the most power possible with each pump too.

[Gecko]

Gecko board $260

Dragon Wing $155

Dragon Claw $155

Ceramic Bearing $70

Wheel Quiver $120 at least

$760 and its as race worthy as one of Bruce's masterpieces not quite as expensive but well it's getting there

I understand the need but to me practice is more important than gear...plus I readily admit that I will never win anything

edit: says the same guy who just blew $26 on a set of bushings for his new speedboard,

speedboarding is just as bad.

Board $120-$300

Trucks $50-$500

Bearings $7-$70

Wheel Quiver $140 (this is my quiver others have spent more)

Bushings $26 (JimZ Venom's Stims etc, this is also true in Slalom

Leathers $250(cheap Ebay)-$1200+ custom(lucky I can use mine motorcycling too, mine were $400)

Slide Gloves $$40 (though you can make them for less)

Helmet $100-$400

Now I have two boards both on cast trucks though my Indy's are Faced and re-axel so they are actually worth about $100, my boards were made by xxguitarist but if one were to buy his boards at market value they'd probably be worth twice what I paid for them

[wavechaser]

I think you forgot Bindings/Boots...sorta like you need deck-trucks-wheels on a skate, an alpine board needs deck-bindings-boots

Kessler Race Deck (equal of the Gecko) $1200...but you need two ($2400)

F2 or similar race bindings $250-300...again, two sets min. ($500-600)

Race boots $300-500

Shin Guards $100

Then there is Wax(BIG $...+/-$500yr.), lift tickets, generally higher entry fees ($80-350), and expensive race tunes ($85 a pop).

Certainly the leathers pushes the price of DH skate racing up, but a race suit for snowboarding runs in about that same range.

Just because I'm bored and argumentative at the moment - I still say alpine snowboarding is way more expensive...unfortunately, but the needle is in too deep, I can't stop....

[Chubz]

Hey wave and gecko

enlightenme on a rear traction truck. I am on randall 180 right now and wanting to goto precision trucks next summer. give me your $.02

Also gonna upgrade my bushings, kingpin and looking at other bearings besides china reds.

Later

[Gecko]

Precision speed trucks are different than Slalom precision trucks Slalom trucks come in two different configuration front which are twitchy and rear which are stable. For rears nearly all are split axle in one shape or another (30* Seismics being the exception that I can think of) in the grand scheme of things Slalom trucks aren't to expensive because after you buy a rear you can wait a while before upgrading the front...not so with speedtrucks. For slalom the idea is to place the wheels inline with kingpin, this slows the turning and alow the rear axel to track the front a bit easier...to some extent this is done in the speedboard world with wedging especially on drop boards or different angle baseplates one very cheap common thing to do is to run a Randal 35* baseplate on the rear and a 52* front to achieve the same thing. Now precision Speedtrucks make Slalom trucks look cheap...the easy to get ones are JimZ, Smokies, Radical's, Maguns and Kahalani's. There are some other small production makers but they're are hard to find. All are expensive figure $300 as a starting point though all but the Rads will be more. Magun's require special mounting holes...Smokies are almost mass produced, Rads are the only american made ones and are the ones you can get the most customized, JimZ are well made and are fabricated to use the best bushings with (JimZ's) and lastly there are Kahalani's, the topmounters dream truck....they are low but have the problem of only fitting barrel bushings. If I were to buy any it would be the Kahalani's 1st and the Rad's 2nd

bearings for speed...lots of thought here on the one side you have the need to go fast but on the other side there is the problem that precision rolling bearing don't take to the side loads of drifting corners well. A lot the guys I ride with err on the side of side load durability...at the most expensive a set of 20-30 dollar abec5-7 bearings Rockin Ron's are good choice if you have to have something special

[John Gilmour]

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/pvdtrucks.htm

best rear truck made...but you'll have to wait until the next production run.

________

Toyota belta

[Civ]

do you know something we dont John?

Those have been out of production as long as most new trucks have been in production. Is he making more?

Try the GOG rear yet? Pretty useful, and faster angles changes than a PVD.

[Gecko]

Venom Stims are a viable replacement to Tracker's thats for sure. I use them on my DH/Freeride board to great advantage.

[wavechaser]

When I coached RacerX, off season training was snowboarding not vice versa.

We hit all kinds of terrains and features and seek out super tight lines. He never quite made gates and was not in favor of hardbooting and race boards.

When George started coaching Zak and Martin, they both turned pro at the COSS open we sponsored last year, I made George get them to watch Kevin Delaney's snowboarding video, as the first order of business. It made all the difference in their skating; wonder why they turned pro in less than a season of slalom skating. COSS it is in the water and altitude or attitude.

I know a lot of Swiss skaters do the same; Noemi, Aki and crew rip St Anton in the winter time and do not hit pavement but a few weeks before Paris.

The equipment is not as expensive as snowboarding for sure but you can make antiquated units work well for sure as was clearly the case when Luca came to California before he got sponsors. However, the new trucks from GOG are clearly awesome and superior to anything on the market. The first set we got sold out fast. We are expecting some more soon but the falling US$ is pushing the truck price to stratospheric levels and making Radikals really affordable.

Zak is now making his own bushings, the Venom. These bushings are in high demand. They do perform, no doubt.

Bola

http://www.allboardssports.com

1-303-415-1600

Bola - will you be up at copper for the USASA Nationals at all - I'd like to meet you. I'm there 4-1 through 4-5, racing Wed. and Thurs., freeriding Copper Friday and Vail Saturday.

BTW - Zak has a front GOG for sale on www.NCDSa.com right now if anyone is interested.