James Ong Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Don't know how factual this all is but here's an article on mexican immigration laws.http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14632 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Technically yes, but....Immigrants = people Illegal Aliens = people who are willing to break the law . it really isn't that hard to understand:smashfrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allee Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 We have the same issues in New Zealand, when it comes to fruit harvest and wine harvest. All the people working in our fields are illegals, usually from Thailand and Cambodia, and the Pacific Islands. They work long and hard, because guess what? white New Zealanders wouldn't be seen dead picking fruit. If it wasn't for the illegals, the harvest would rot on the trees. They did a crackdown a year or so ago, and all the growers caused such a commotion that immigration was forced to back down. The vast majority of these people are no different to you and I. We just lucked in to being born in the right place and the right time. If I were in their shoes, then you bet your a$$ that I'd be doing whatever it took to better my lot as well. The issue of immigration is going to heat up over the next decades, as we see the first people being forced off their land by global warming. Where are these people going to go? Nobody with a conscience can leave them to starve. The haves are going to have to share with the have nots, whether you and I like it or not. Like most people, I don't have any answers, but it will make for interesting times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allee Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Technically yes, but....Immigrants = people Illegal Aliens = people who are willing to break the law So there's a quick fix to this problem - shoot the people that employ them. No job, they don't come. Pretty simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Originally Posted by Erik J Technically yes, but.... Immigrants = people Illegal Aliens = people who are willing to break the law it really isn't that hard to understand:smashfrea For the record - that is not my original quote. I can't disagree with that statement though. Yes "illegal aliens are people willing to break the law" but that's a very black & white picture of the situation. That's like saying anyone who has ever gotten a speeding ticket, parking ticket, jaywalked, blah, blah, are people willing to break the law. I'm not comparing the actual acts here, but all of these things are illegal. I'm trivializing here. Illegals having been coming in for centuries. As long as the American consumer demands cheap stuff - cheap labor will be here to produce it. I would like to see the work visa process streamlined. Maybe the gov't could create more jobs for Americans by introducing more work visa processors? Or require better ID for all citizens to obtain certain services to make sure that only tax payers recieve those services. Maybe all cars should carry a universal insurance sticker to better spot the uninsured drivers? I would like to hear what others have to say on fixing the problem. There's a fine line to walk here between holding on to what we pay for as tax payers and over-litigating ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Sorry for stealing your thread Justin. I realize that I turned this thread into the very thing that you were ticked about in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 So there's a quick fix to this problem - shoot the people that employ them. No job, they don't come. Pretty simple. shooting might be over the top but enforcing the law would be nice:ices_ange people who hire illegals are also people willing to break the law inorder to line their pockets. Never mind if one or two want to smuggle in a nuke and blow it up in manhattan:smashfrea my concern is security. If we need more workers then figure out a way to get them here legally with a background check so we know who is here and who we are letting in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 For the record - that is not my original quote.. Sorry it was my change I was to lazy to retype and forgot to remove the quotes:eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KrudKarver Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I would agree that the situation we have created for ourselves has contributed much to the problem. I don't believe in the concept that american consumers buy only on the lowest price. (Are you buying chinese toys for your family this year? ... Own a Kia? Only buy the frozen burgers in the big 20lb box?) Additionally, if there were a fix to the illegal immigrant situation, then any pricing based on their cheap labor would be adjusted to reflect the higher wages paid out. And, yes, if the crops are ready to pick and the farmer wants to offer jobs at $4/hr, then they probably will rot. But, the farmer is assuming that he has to sell his crop at last year's prices, and, to make a profit, he can only afford to pay 4/hr.. Well, if there wasn't any $4/hr labor, then he's gonna have to offer more pay...and, pass it on to the consumer. Again, with the impossible miracle of eradicating illegal workers, all farmers would be in the same boat and have to employ US workers at $8/hr (+soc.security+unemployment+.....). and we'd pay $8/qt for stawberries. The social cost of the workers now would shift to the farmer instead of the general us taxpayer. That would severely cut into his profits--he'd probably have a word with his local government representative... I could go on with this..but, you get the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipuppy Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 The agricultural industry has some of the strongest lobbies in the government, and consequentially receives some of the most subsidies to protect them from having the consumer buy cheaper products from abroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 The social cost of the workers now would shift to the farmer instead of the general us taxpayer. That would severely cut into his profits--he'd probably have a word with his local government representative...I could go on with this..but, you get the picture. The farmers that I know and do business with don't have much profit to cut into. They feed their families, do the work of their fathers and their fathers fathers and they sure aren't driving BMW's. I'm talking smaller scale independent farmers here - not mega farms that grow tens of thousands of acres of corn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 The agricultural industry has some of the strongest lobbies in the government, and consequentially receives some of the most subsidies to protect them from having the consumer buy cheaper products from abroad. For the large industrial farms, yes. These are corporations that control very large percentages of the national food supply. These companies have CEO's and stockholders. The gov't has a very special interest in these comapnies - some of which are also linked to bio-engineering - which is now in the pharmaceutical realm of things which is big money. So big money has the strongest lobbies in my opinion, not the independent farms. Many of the independent farms don't have CEO's or board meetings. The guy driving the tractor is the "CEO". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KrudKarver Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Ridiculous, isn't it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I would agree that the situation we have created for ourselves has contributed much to the problem. I don't believe in the concept that american consumers buy only on the lowest price. (Are you buying chinese toys for your family this year? ... Own a Kia? Only buy the frozen burgers in the big 20lb box?) Additionally, if there were a fix to the illegal immigrant situation, then any pricing based on their cheap labor would be adjusted to reflect the higher wages paid out. I don't mean to imply that consumers only buy the lowest price. That's a blanket statement. Look at all the luxury cars on line at Burger King:rolleyes: . This topic is so broad it's hard to really cover everything without getting myself off topic. I'm just offering my opinion here. Look at the organic food industry. In my mind it's better for your health and the environment. It's still only a fraction of the food industry as a whole because of cost and public awareness. I believe immigrant labor is needed to produce items that people don't view as a luxury. Maybe this is a better example of what I was talking about earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Additionally, if there were a fix to the illegal immigrant situation, then any pricing based on their cheap labor would be adjusted to reflect the higher wages paid out. And, yes, if the crops are ready to pick and the farmer wants to offer jobs at $4/hr, then they probably will rot. But, the farmer is assuming that he has to sell his crop at last year's prices, and, to make a profit, he can only afford to pay 4/hr.. Well, if there wasn't any $4/hr labor, then he's gonna have to offer more pay...and, pass it on to the consumer.Again, with the impossible miracle of eradicating illegal workers, all farmers would be in the same boat and have to employ US workers at $8/hr (+soc.security+unemployment+.....). and we'd pay $8/qt for stawberries. It would be great if farmers had that kind of direct price influence but most farmers go through a middleman that buys their product in bulk and then processes it in some way. If the middleman knows he/she can get product x from the next farm for less money, he'll use that. Now the farmer has to lower his cost to get back into the game. If all of the farms decided at the same time that they wouldn't sell for any less than x amount of dollars, then they'd have some power. But the cheapest product often gets the bid. The farmer is at the bottom of a long chain of processes and often gets crapped on. I'm WAY oversimplifying the whole process here. It would take a book to cover all of the areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 It would be great if farmers had that kind of direct price influence but most farmers go through a middleman that buys their product in bulk and then processes it in some way. If the middleman knows he/she can get product x from the next farm for less money, he'll use that. Now the farmer has to lower his cost to get back into the game. If all of the farms decided at the same time that they wouldn't sell for any less than x amount of dollars, then they'd have some power. But the cheapest product often gets the bid. The farmer is at the bottom of a long chain of processes and often gets crapped on. I'm WAY oversimplifying the whole process here. It would take a book to cover all of the areas. Erik is right on, the food industry is insane, both distributors and the retailers are ****ing evil. There are farmers here that get about $8 per case of lettuce when they sell direct to market basket, the same price they have for the last decade yet market basket sells this premium product for 3.49 a head. FYI 10 heads to the case. now when farmer x says I really need at least 9.50 a case market basket tells you to go **** yourself even though they have a higher profit margin than just about any other type of retailer. farmers basically take it in the ass for a living, people get all excited about fair trade coffee like they're saving the world but the domestic foods we consume are just as unfairly traded as many of the products from the 3rd world. don't be fooled, there are few independent farmers these day when it comes to the staple crops. those who are independent either get screwed by the distributors or sued by monsanto......... Monsanto, ADM and a couple others litigate big farms that don't bow down to them and buy their seed. It sounds crazy but it's exactly what they do. If you have a nice heirloom strain they want to eradicate so they can sell their GM crops that are supposed to do the same thing they patent your strain that you've been using for 100 years or just try to litigate with you until you run out of money, they usually win because they have billions to throw away. Nothing scares massive agribusiness more than genetic diversity...... Another thing they love to do is litigate with people adjacent to farmers who use GM products because the GM plants cross pollenate with the neighbor's non-GM plants making the next generation gm and then they say you stole their genetic property. Just ask Ol' Percy http://www.percyschmeiser.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 make a difference buy local from small producers preferably organic. It will affect the market in a positive way and you will be healthier:biggthump hit the local farmers market the farmer makes way more for his product and you pay less! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Spain also has huge problems with illegals coming into the country, mostly from Africa or Latin America. One of the ways they deal with it is 'allow' illegals to stay in the country for 3 months, after those 3 months, the illegals have a chance to prove that they have found a job and are working - at that point they can apply for citizenship or a permit that will allow them to stay and work. Those that do not find jobs (and probably some before the 3 month period is up, I'm not sure), are deported. this same system could work here, we would just have to make a system of work permits that is more flexible than what we have now. Lot cheaper than a fence and they can still provide economically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Spain also has huge problems with illegals coming into the country, mostly from Africa or Latin America. One of the ways they deal with it is 'allow' illegals to stay in the country for 3 months, after those 3 months, the illegals have a chance to prove that they have found a job and are working - at that point they can apply for citizenship or a permit that will allow them to stay and work. Those that do not find jobs (and probably some before the 3 month period is up, I'm not sure), are deported.this same system could work here, we would just have to make a system of work permits that is more flexible than what we have now. Lot cheaper than a fence and they can still provide economically They also have muslim extremists blowing up commuter trains and influencing national elections:smashfrea security has to come first. then a coherent system for them to come here can be put in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 it's not just muslims either but people love to forget that. border security is a joke with borders the size of ours AND often terrorist enter countries legally. Like all the 9/11 hijackers! Pointing out that Spain has problems with terrorists is like pointing the US has trouble with drunk drivers, while true it is in no way a strictly spanish issue. we in the US act like the first terror event ever in the history of the world was 9/11, maybe because the enemy was easier to identify by race and religion than this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh try to realize we've been in a vacuum and the rest of the world has been dealing with these issues for a long time. In the cases specific to muslims since the 60s but for it to get real media attention within the US we really only saw it post 9/11 On a different note Buying local produce is the single best thing you can do for farmers and for the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 it's not just muslims either but people love to forget that.border security is a joke with borders the size of ours AND often terrorist enter countries legally. true its not always muslims but the train station in madrid was. If they enter legally and aren't detained the system is also broken. There has to be less incentive to enter illegally to help the problem here because of our border size for sure. We could then feel justified using greater deterrents on those that still choose to come across illegally. ie less likely to be a family of fruit pickers and more likely to be felons or terrorists. chechens are a white race but last I checked they are muslim. bali and the other asian areas with terrorism are also muslim who am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 mcveigh was a stooge a patsy a moron a pawn:freak3: He didn't have enough braincells to properly butter bread let alone setup that attack. I would tend to believe that the dark complected man seen with mcveigh on numerous security videos was probably , you guessed it, a muslim extremist. there just isn't anyone else out there quite so committed to killing americans indiscriminately. Our homegrown bozos usually have a specific agenda. The Una bomber had a thing for authority and college profs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 actually, the majority in terrorism in spain is NOT muslim-led (nor immigrant led at all). Rather, its done by the ETA, who are 'fighting' for the basque country's independence. I doubt that their immigration policy has much to do with the [muslim] terrorism seen in Spain anyways - You'd have to show me some actual data that the majority of islamic extremists are a. recent immigrants to begin with, and b. illegals. Furthermore, if they want to commit terrorism, they'll find a way in. I think we learned that 6 years ago... about the muslim extremists influencing the elections - welcome to democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 like they say one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter:eplus2: as for immigration and terrorism its a risk and a weak point that needs fixed in our national security policy whether or not we can link past occurrences to illegals. we did stop a bomber coming in from BC at the bellingham crosing a while back. the point is they are at war with us whether or not we choose to be at war with them and they have to cross the border in some way in order to attack us at home. We should be prepared to do what we can to prevent that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 So I guess arab or persian(yes, there is a difference between arab and persian) muslims are buddies with skinheads now? are the IRA and hezbolah in cahoots as well? Terrorists claim their actions usually especially religiously motivated terrorist. the whole point is to let people know why they are so pissed. Has any muslim group claimed oklahoma city? Terry Nichols might of come across some muslims but even info on that is very shaky at best. Face it, there are white christians that are very unhappy and are willing to kill as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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