Hardbooting instructor in trouble

[Dave ESPI]

Thanks for posting silverstreek. If you keep up with your average, we will look forward to your next post in 2009. ;)

:lol:

Just wanted to say this made me burst out laughing, and it resulted in my sleeping cat on my lap putting racing stripes across my thigh with it's back claws because I startled her !

A great first post by silverstreak for sure, and a long time lurker comming out to post a very good reply is awesome! I often see a few regulars on the forum and anywhere between 20 to 50 "guest", so it's all good :)

As to the stance "Duck" issue here on this page, the ONLY thing I do love about the Burton LTR boards is the fact that you can adjust the stance on them with a simple flick of a lever and find the comfortzone for everyone in a few seconds. Some students like the skateboard feel, others like 0-0 stance, some like duck, or later on find out 1/2 way through the lesson they like riding goofy despite their "perferred leg".

[Rob Stevens]

Blue B... You're gonna have to quit by the sounds of it. If, however, you want me to call or write them on your behalf, I will.

I would agree with them if it was about stance alone. In the schools and clinics I have run (many over the last 20 years) I would not want to see high angles teaching low and vise versa. Jeff Chandler, CASI's TD, would say the same. The boot thing is just a hollow marketing decision. I would say it's a worse marketing decision to alienate you and have to hire an unknown quantity who may teach a **** lesson.

Steve... Alpine is alpine and traditional is traditional. For me, if I am teaching 1 person in a private lesson, I will set my bindings IDENTICALLY to their angles, unless they're whack (0-0). In this case I will talk to them about the advantages of a little angle in the front foot, or a little angle in both (duck). Usually, they'll just do whatever I tell them.

If it's a group we're talking about, I will shoot to the middle, which generally means I'll leave my gear alone, as I ride a bit duck as it is (25 and -3 to -5).

There are a few stances that, in my mind and CASI's, would qualify as "traditional". You would be "identically" set up if they were anything between snowboard cross (like Terje's stance) and full freestyle, or duck. 0 - 0 is in there, but as I said, we try to discourage people from using that stance, but won't ram it down throats to change. The BX angles, to stay traditional, shouldn't have much more rear foot than about 15 degrees.

If it's higher than that, it's alpine because your body position will rotate forward and you'll be using your legs differently to edge the board.

If you brought that "I've got an alpine stance, but look!, I'm standing parallel to the board!" approach to my school and wouldn't lower your angles to teach traditionally if required, you'd be benched. We would likely never have to go through that, however, as you would have been weeded out in the interview process as too "inflexible".

Note that unlike Blue's boss, I would simply have you turn the angles down, not switch your whole setup. I don't think HB's are as gay as someone at his mountain clearly does.

As an instructor, you have to ADAPT. If you can't or won't, you're limited as to who, or what, you can teach. To get the job done, I will personally ride whatever it takes to remove ANY barrier, small or large, between myself and my client. If I had a good instructor who only wanted to ride HB's, but was willing to change stances, I would see this as a good compromise. Blue's school has gone one further and there are issues with that, but they've made a choice.

I can suggest to them what they MIGHT do, but otherwise, it's up to them.

[Steve Prokopiw]

That 'too inflexible' thing is ironic.Chances are pretty good that we have taught similar numbers of students.I have a stellar track record of returns and requests over the same twenty years so I guess it comes down to opinion.I would not work where you do for the same reason;inflexibility.And no,alpine is not just simply alpine and freestyle is not just simply freestyle.Perhaps I can send you some video to illustrate that.The irony to me is that the original spirit of snowboarding has been twisted into the factory creating robots mentality.I use hardboots on a freesyle board first for the comfort and user friendliness/practicality and second because it truly represents trhe best of both worlds for me.I'm sorry to see teaching is increasingly subject to arbitrary,unsubstantiated whims, political vedettas and power struggles.

[Rob Stevens]

You're crazy, Bro.

You see things that aren't there.

Power struggles? Political vendettas? What? I don't understand.

Maybe you could send me a video explaining that.

You can send me all the video of your riding that you want, but at the end of the day a stance turned forward with both feet will edge the board differently than the way a stance more across the board will. Both physically and visually. Any attempt to make one look like the other is fakery.

So you run HB's on a freestyle board? Who cares? You don't need to go duck, by any means, but if you're teaching in an alpine stance on that rig and your student is positioned across the board you're comprimising a visual tool.

I for one am not in a "factory", creating "robots". We're just trying to create a clearer picture by having a teacher use an identical or at least similar stance as the student. In Blue's case, the hill has gone too far to make him wear SB's if he is willing to go low angle in his HB's.

[BlueB]

Rob,

Yes, please write the letter. That would be great. I'd appreciate if you would CC to me, so I know what arguments I could use if there was another round of discussions.

I was also hoping to have an official statement, by CASI, of acceptable and unacceptable things about HBs, if there was such a thing. Even if there wasn't, this could be a great opportunity to build a policy.

Then, it's still up to school to decide, but at least there's a guideline...

Do you need any contact details/names for my school?

[Steve Prokopiw]

I'll get out here after this.Rob, the political vendettas and power struggles thing was related to what it seems Blue is being affected by.I don't think I'm too crazy for seeing that as it has been mentioned by others here as a possibility,Bro.Seems to me if that wasn't there to see you would not be writing a letter in support of his cause.As for the rest I'll just agree to disagree.BlueB, I apologize for helping to take your thread off track and I hope things work out the best for you.

[just give 'er]

This whole thing strikes me as pretty crazy. I have to agree with Rob that your angles should match those of your students for visual clarity, likewise I'd have to say that it is much easier to learn with low angles than high angles. That said, I'm thinking teaching beginners, you should have low angles to match those of your students.

There is a lot of talk about teaching carving lessons, and other higher end lessons here. I'm surprised that Rob hasn't suggested that you head out and get your level two so that you have a clear understanding of the CASI model as it relates to carving, both on hard and soft gear. You'll also learn how to cater to higher end students using the skill based teaching model. At our hill we try to have level two and up riders teaching carving and other high end lessons.. Both because we know they are trained to do so, and because of the insurance protection that it brings.

As to whether you can teach carving on soft-boots, I've taught eleven years worth of high end lessons, teaching carving and park on the same set up. I'd have to guess that the majority of CASI level 3 candidates do the entire course, carving, freeride and park on the same setup.

CASI certainly supports alpine riding at the highest levels, it's only in the last year that there has been an option to take the level 4 without having to do the carving portion on an alpine set up. Now you have a choice between high performance carving on alpine gear or high performance freestyle on soft gear.

While I own and train several days a week on my alpine gear (for my level 4), I ride my soft gear for almost all of my teaching. I regularly have requests for park lessons, but rarely does an alpine rider come in to request an alpine carving lesson, so as a matter of course, it's my soft gear that gets pulled out each teaching day.

I also think there is a distinct discrimination here, on this board, against softboots. Softboots are the tool of choice for many types of riding, be it freestyle, many boarder cross courses, and big mountain freestyle. The carved turn is not the only high performance turn out there, just watch Jeremy Jones put a line down a big mountain Alaskan face and tell me that those slid turns aren't also at the highest end of snowboarding technique. Along with the carving or freestyle module, all CASI 4 candidates are required to put on their soft gear and do some high end freeriding. And for a real taste of softy goodness, watch "Yes to the No", or some of the other Noboarding footage that is out there to see some amazing riding with no binding support at all.

My suggestions are to: match your stance as close as you can to your students; train for and achieve higher cert levels (apply for scholarships to make it more finacially doable); advertise through word of mouth, keeping business cards ready as you freecarve, on the bomber instructor boards, and any other means that are available to you, that you are ready and willing to teach on hardboots (if people are coming out asking for an instructor to teach them on hardboots then I bet you'll see an about face from your snowschool).

[Rob Stevens]

What he said...

Blue... Send me a PM with your supervisors phone number and I'll call her directly.

CASI does not have a policy directly related to the issue you are suffering from, as they would appear to have made it based on a marketing decision of their own.

What I will be discussing with your supervisor is CASI's opinion of stance and alignment in the beginner lesson.

[Neil Gendzwill]

CASI certainly supports alpine riding at the highest levels

I don't think so. Maybe the odd outlying instructor if you know who they are and are willing to pay for a private, but the advanced instruction just isn't really there as a matter of course. It's even in the signage - go to a school and check the levels you classify yourself in for groups, the snowboard progression stops about halfway up the ski progression. If you can link some turns on a blue run, you're in the top snowboarding group.

[Rob Stevens]

That's for sure, in group lessons.

Like in skiing, though, you're going to have to take a private if you want anything beyond intermediate instruction. The reality seems to be that you could sign up for a high-end ski lesson and wind up with a private, because no one else booked.

If the school has a level 4 on staff, you can get a pretty high end hardboot lesson... If the level 4 still has their hard gear, that is.

Oh yeah... CASI DOES support alpine at the highest levels. Like Blue is finding out, however, not all SCHOOLS do.

There's a big difference.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's exactly my point. If I sign up for a ski lesson and say I'm level 9, I'm going to get a good lesson (or at least, that was my experience in the past - the few ski lessons I've had, the instructor could kick my ass no problem). Sign up for a group at snowboard level 4 and you'll end up in a learn-to-carve session. So as an advanced rider, I look at their classification system and I'm not even inspired to ask for a private because it doesn't seem like they are set up to handle people who know how to ride. For a couple of years I would drop in to the desk at whatever hill I was at and say "got a level 3 or higher instructor?" The answer was always no, and usually they'd look at me like I was some kind of ******* for requesting a qualified instructor.

[Rob Stevens]

It took the CSIA about 50 years for the high end instructors to rotate back to the original mountains that spawned them.

All CASI's high end instructors are still at the major resorts. Very few of them are ready to come home yet.

If you want an instructor that will kick your ass, you'll have to do a bit of driving and you'll still need to ask for that private. The average intermediate snowboarder doesn't think they need a lesson. That's our different demographic for you. The result is the schools not thinking they need that program.

So who starts? Does the school wait for the students, or, do they offer the programs and see who responds? Depends on who runs the school, I guess and how much of a "go-getter" they are.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you want an instructor that will kick your ass, you'll have to do a bit of driving and you'll still need to ask for that private.

I wasn't talking about local hills here, I'm referring to major hills. I had a really disappointing experience at Sunshine that sparked my failed quest for a qualified instructor. But it's been a few years since I gave up looking, maybe they've got some better guys sprinkled here and there in the Rockies now. I know you're around, and there's one guy I've heard of at KHMR.

The average intermediate snowboarder doesn't think they need a lesson. That's our different demographic for you.

True enough. I wonder if that's a result of them being typically young, or because people figure they're already experts when they can side-slip down a "black run".

[Rob Stevens]

Definitely a few more around now.

The alpine thing is still so uncommon, though, you'll need to book in advance so the instructor will know to bring their gear. Asking on the day could still lead to dissappointment.

[BlueB]

I've sent you requested info in PM.

[BlueB]

This whole thing strikes me as pretty crazy. I have to agree with Rob that your angles should match those of your students for visual clarity' date=' likewise I'd have to say that it is much easier to learn with low angles than high angles. That said, I'm thinking teaching beginners, you should have low angles to match those of your students.

There is a lot of talk about teaching carving lessons, and other higher end lessons here. I'm surprised that Rob hasn't suggested that you head out and get your level two so that you have a clear understanding of the CASI model as it relates to carving, both on hard and soft gear. You'll also learn how to cater to higher end students using the skill based teaching model. At our hill we try to have level two and up riders teaching carving and other high end lessons.. Both because we know they are trained to do so, and because of the insurance protection that it brings.

As to whether you can teach carving on soft-boots, I've taught eleven years worth of high end lessons, teaching carving and park on the same set up. I'd have to guess that the majority of CASI level 3 candidates do the entire course, carving, freeride and park on the same setup.

CASI certainly supports alpine riding at the highest levels, it's only in the last year that there has been an option to take the level 4 without having to do the carving portion on an alpine set up. Now you have a choice between high performance carving on alpine gear or high performance freestyle on soft gear.

While I own and train several days a week on my alpine gear (for my level 4), I ride my soft gear for almost all of my teaching. I regularly have requests for park lessons, but rarely does an alpine rider come in to request an alpine carving lesson, so as a matter of course, it's my soft gear that gets pulled out each teaching day.

I also think there is a distinct discrimination here, on this board, against softboots. Softboots are the tool of choice for many types of riding, be it freestyle, many boarder cross courses, and big mountain freestyle. The carved turn is not the only high performance turn out there, just watch Jeremy Jones put a line down a big mountain Alaskan face and tell me that those slid turns aren't also at the highest end of snowboarding technique. Along with the carving or freestyle module, all CASI 4 candidates are required to put on their soft gear and do some high end freeriding. And for a real taste of softy goodness, watch "Yes to the No", or some of the other Noboarding footage that is out there to see some amazing riding with no binding support at all.

My suggestions are to: match your stance as close as you can to your students; train for and achieve higher cert levels (apply for scholarships to make it more finacially doable); advertise through word of mouth, keeping business cards ready as you freecarve, on the bomber instructor boards, and any other means that are available to you, that you are ready and willing to teach on hardboots (if people are coming out asking for an instructor to teach them on hardboots then I bet you'll see an about face from your snowschool).[/quote']

Hi!

It would be very nice identifying yourself, if you felt comfortable with it. As you are not a regular poster, most of the people would not understand who do they talk to and it might fire some overheated discussion.

In my opinion, the only crazy thing is that h/bs are not recognised as footware of personal choice and are dismissed as acceptable for teaching, or non-carving type of riding.

No one suggested that one could not teach carving on soft boots, or that carved turn was the only high performance turn, or questioned skill level of JJ or likes.

Mentioning discrimination is just plain wrong. Bias, yes, this is h/b forum at the end of the day. We discuss soft boots and carving on them often. Lot of good advice got given to people looking for freeride setups, etc...

Discrimination would mean that s/b topics are banned, or s/b proponents are insulted or bullied. In reality it is the h/bs that are discriminated, try posing as a hardcore h/booter on a jibbers' forum. Or how about shops not being able to give even some info about h/b? Or, how about my school banning h/b for teaching unless someone requested them?

As for you suggestion of spending more money (or someone elses money by taking scholarship) into courses, well it doesn't solve anything with regards to current situation at my school, does it?

I never mentioned that I wouldn't take a higher level exam. Contrary, I would, if nothing else for personal satisfaction. Wether it's worth it - I don't know yet. Rob's actions so far say yes, unlike the other CASI high ranking gentleman who didn't bother to reply my message, yet.

[BlueB]

Correction:

The other CASI gentleman just replied via email. Thanks for the opinion!

[EnisiWaya]

I've been teaching since 1965, had a marine ply home made "snow board" with two used rear slalom water ski bindings for slush days back in '66.

Got back into snow board in the early 80s when King Ridge was one of the first in NH to allow fulll mountain access to snowboarders.

I did spend 4 years teaching all my lessons on hard boots only, then I bought an Arbor woody and the super high back SIS boot/bindings. Found out it helped with the beginner lessons but for upper level hard boot was good. Now I have collected (as Burton's always broken plastic step ins killed the step in market) several SIS pairs of boots and 5 sets of bindings all metal to metal contact. I use them on my Arbor (fun board), and on my trees and woods board, and on the ancient Salamon rental board with my new graphics that I use to teach beginner lessons in out Burton LTR program. The Arbor is to stiff to demo properly for the soft LTR boards.

Then I have several Rossi race boards for carving and trench diggging. On those I use my Technica mid range slightly soft ski boots. For most riding and skiing the technicas are left in the "walk" mode for all but really screaming on my Dynastar Omecarve 172s, or if I'm on the custom 172 Rossi GS monster board.

My stance angles are almost the same for all setups, a tiny bit more towards 0 on the teaching board only.

Most skiers are in boots way to stiff for their ability especially most instructors! I teach level 9 plus (woods bumps and all kinds of off the groom stuff on skis. Snow board I 'll teach any thing but park and pipe but I do coach them occasionally.

A good properly certified ASSI jor CASI instyructor should be able to teach on anything including skis. Yes we still have to be bettter than the skiers!

If we work at it then maybe, just maybe for level 3 PSIA they will have to pass a level 1 ASSI exam.

At Ragged MT Resort Pat and I try to require our snowboard staff to be able to teach a level 1,2,&3 ski lesson as part of the preparation to be certified on our mt. to teach upper level snowboard lessons.

Since 1965 the no. 1 rule always has been and always will be:

The most valuable instructor on the MT. is the most versatile instructor.

Chase

"Grandfather Wolf"

[carvedog]

http://www.aasi.org/

I have seen this posted as ASSI a few times this week. FYI: it is the American Association of Snowboard Instructors. I think there is enough ass already in snowboarding wihtout adding more. ;)

I don't think someone who chooses to teach snowboarding should have to teach skiing. Full cert or not. I am BTW. And don't care to teach skiing.

Welcome back to the board Chase.

In regards to Boris' problem. I went out in some softies the other day for our rehire clinic. Interesting. Two clinicians "leading" this for 10 riders. I used to run these and actually ran the new hire clinic for both of these guys. Good riders in soft boots. I was the only one in hard boots on the second day.

One clinician broke a binding completely the first day and cracked the other one. Finished the day ( easy level 1,2 review) with broken gear.

Second day the other clinician had to leave in the middle of the afternoon session due to major foot pain. The other one finished with all 10 of us, but cracked another binding.

I had times of pretty intense foot pain day one in soft ( even with fitted footbeds etc), second day no pain at all. Warm feet all day. No ankle pain.

In regards to matching angles of new riders I disagree.

Part of the reason is medical. I have been doing this for 14 years and skating sideways is painful for me. I already have some asymmetric joint pain and athritis, that I can only attribute to the thousands and thousands of trips up the beginner hill, sideways skating etc.

Reason for this logic. I can snowboard easily at a very high level with no pain. Skating, and manuevering around the beginner hill is becoming harder and harder, with hip and knee pain and lower back pain.

Maybe this all my problem due to my body physiology. I would be interested to hear from others who have spent thousands of hours teaching to see if they have developed any asymmetric symptoms that seem to be exacerbated by skating etc.

Not to thread jack. This seems related to me.

[Rob Stevens]

I think the assymmetry of snowboarding will cause much future suffering for todays riders. It causes me grief now.

If you are in pain from riding sideways to the board, do you teach many beginner lessons anymore? Do you skate with the push foot on the heelside? (I don't even demo the other way anymore) What's your schools policy on alignment with students?

The foot pain of SB's is different for everyone and different for me from day to day. I have only recently discovered that relaxing into the cramps, which initially hurts more, has the effect of eliminating them after a time. I don't know what I was doing before... Tensing up, likely.

It's funny that the 2 guys giving the clinic had so many problems. Breaking bindings? I might have a strap break, but that's usually because I stepped on it. Only the cheap **** does that, or if you're a gorilla. Clinic riding is usually pretty mellow.

[EnisiWaya]

Hi Carvedog and Rob,

sorry gang I did not mean to upset anyone or to put anyone down.

I still have my 1993 Professional Ski Instructors of America "Snowboard Skiing" manual along with most publications and videos and manuals that have come out from the "American Association of Snowboard Instructors since it began in '98 or so.

With regard to the clinicians broken gear, stuff rarely just breaks in an instant. They may not have checked thier gear out for the season. AS a hard booter I hated and still do most soft strap bindings. You tighten them up enough to do some serious carving on anything let alone hero courderoy and your feet go to sleep. Plus the bindings need constant care. So I am on your side on that issue. LIke I mentioned I have cornered the market on NOS Rossi and O Sin metal to metal high back step ins. The boots are almost as stiff as my ski boots, the bindings are super reliable. They really should get Emory (the actual manufacturer) to put them back into production.

When I went back to boarding in the 80's I had to learn to ride regular instead of goofy as my right hip that I dislocated and broke the ball and tore all the blood vessels and nerves out of the socket on in a car crash could not stand the vibration from being the lead foot. Then there is the constant problem with keeping my right foot sub talar joint working ( the one that alows foot inversion and eversion) as when I shattered my heel four years ago they screwed it up while rebuilding my heel with 11 screws and a metal plate. That was the only season I've missed in 42 years. It took a year and four sessions of 6 weeks each in PT to get back. Then there is the Thoracic Degenerative Spondyloisis from a 1973 NAVY back injury that I struggle with for body movement. Compouding that is that my right leg is 1 inch shorter below the knee.

Yeah I don't skate very well in either kind of boots but agree skating is much easier in hard boots. I teach beginners to skate both sides before straight runs. I do tell them that one side will be easier but it depends on the person. When making first J turns I get them to skate into it both heel and toe side as appropriate starting body position for the turn direction.

Carvedog and Rob, we older guys just have to keep going anyway we can.

On my SIS bindings I have the High Backs cranked around 10 to 15 degrees more than the foot plates for carving on the Arbor Woody. It gives a whole lot more power on the heel side carve. I have never seen a strap binding you can dial in like that, have you?

In both hard and soft boots every season I have to fight to have muscle memory remember to relax and stand flat on your feet. The soft boots cause one set of muscles to over tense and the hard boots (especially if a take the Rossi monster out) cause a different set to do it. I have yet to finds pre-season exercises that elimanate this one.

I just remind all our returning and new hires each day it is a long season and I need every one of them for lessons so take it easy for the first couple of weeks.

Chase

[Rob Stevens]

No offense taken here, Chase.

One thing I have found with my Burton C60 carbon soft bindings is that I don't have to tighten the straps as much, or have the forward lean cranked as hard as I did on plastic bindings. They're very responsive at comfortable settings.

The more budget the binding, he more foot pain you'll likely experience, I've found.

[carvedog]

Hi Carvedog and Rob,

sorry gang I did not mean to upset anyone or to put anyone down.

Not upset at all. Hope I didn't sound too curmudgeonly. Online can make one sound as much fun as a barrel of tacks sometimes.

I tend to break hard gear occasionally too, but it is an epidemic in the snowboard school among the soft ones. It seems like there is always someone breaking gear and needing to have their class collected somewhere on the mountain.

Our clinics are not so mellow sometimes. We tend to push each other pretty hard. We were doing bumps and crud the second day too. Me on hbs and a 185 Burton and some of the jibbers whining about bumps on their 155-160s. Pansies anyway.

Too bad you didn't make it to McCall. We could go ride together. I haven't been to Tamarack, but I love Brundage. Such a different feel than Sun Valley. Good ski school there too.

Chase - sounds like you have some more major issues than I on the medical front. I am only 46, but done some stupid, stupid things to my bod. Racing motox and hare scrambles was really fun, but rather destructive. Used to do crazy street riding too. Never went all the way down, but got hit by a car hit some railroad ties and some other stupid stuff. Football, high school and college until I trashed my ankle. Crap maybe I am just wearing out.

So you are inspiration for me. I saw my first wolves in the wild last year. It was in my favorite elk hunting area.???? So a mixed blessing.

Sorry about the minor thread jack Boris.

[BlueB]

Today I showed up with 2 setups, with identical angles, somwhere in the region of 30/15 or 25/10, one with plates, other with strap bindings. At the moment I do not feel I can ride with much lower angles, after 3 years only on h/b and angles over 45. However, I might work my way down, over the time.

I asked for few minutes of supervisor's (snowboard guy, not the director lady) time to discuss the 2 setups and to explain what makes them so different. I got told (again) that I'm to use only soft boots for teaching, indespite of ability to match the angles of 2 setups. Furthermore, I got told that my current angles are not neccesserily acceptable but I can ride them for the time being. The advice was that we should all strive for duck stance, or at least rear foot at 90 degrees. Along with that, any stance with both feet forward and body alignment with it, was called alpine.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

I just started to teach in small local mountain in catskills ny.<O:p</O:p

My boss is very excited about alpine ability in his school, we try to advertise and get some individual classes for extreme carving. <O:p</O:p

I can teach on soft and hard setups, as a matter of fact I was riding most of the last Saturday on my tanker 175 in soft boots just to figure it out.<O:p</O:p

It was not bad I could lay it down as much as on hard boots except steeps and ice (it was more difficult to hold heel side turns) <O:p</O:p

I didn’t teach beginners yet but nobody seems to be too concern about hard boots or angles.<O:p</O:p

From student perspective I can imagine it would be better to understand if instructor has similar set up to them. <O:p</O:p

That’s why there is only one set up requirements for my carving class steeper angles and no boot drag<O:p</O:p