Base burn in different areas

[pebu]

So I've got a question concerning skis actually. I was taking care of my brothers skis and noticed a little base burn on the edges. Nothing too out of the ordinary except on the right side there was pronounced base burn just a couple inches from the beginning of the effective edge. On the left side, on the other hand, the base burn was a couple inches in front of the toe clip of the binding. (Only a couple inches difference between the two.) It happened on both skis which led me to believe it is repeatable, whichever ski is on whichever foot. It also led me to believe that he turns one way different from the other.

I can understand having base burn at separate lengths on a snowboard since you're not really symetric. But on skis it seems theoretically you're symetric and the burn should also be symetric. What I don't really know though is which way would be better (if any)? Should there be extra pressure on the beginning of the leading edge or should the bulk of the pressure be put towards the waist?

It's the end of the season, so we won't be able to test any theories, but lets here what everybody's got to say.

[pebu]

A bump for curiousity.

(It'll be my only bump... If nobody answers you'll never see it again...)

[Chris Houghton]

Apparently we don't care to discuss skis or the tuning thereof in this forum.....

[pebu]

So be it.

[tex1230]

maybe your friend should learn about wax?

[pebu]

I wax them and they're very well waxed. Sometimes after a full day of nothing but edges though it'll get a little dry.

I'm probably opening myself up for a bunch of pot shots about how I'm not doing it right and all that crap. Whatever. Do your worst.

[D-Sub]

youve never noticed this on carving boards? Heck...less than one day and a strip of base near the edge is dry and wax-free. Im certain I wax correctly, too.

I think its just from a lot of edge action

[Phil]

I would venture to guess that he is using the whole ski on his right turns and getting in the back seat on his left turns. Almost everyone who skis has a natural and unnatural turn. When doing MA on skiers, it is usually pretty easy to spot which is which.

Here is one for you which is sure to get me flamed -

I would bet that those boarders who face the nose of their boards when riding get base burn farther up their heelside edge than they do on their toeside.

As tex said, this could be a wax issue for some, but others should take note where they are applying pressure while they are riding. Repeated base burn in the same place does not lie.

[tex1230]

Basically, what you want to do is put a good coat of cold temp (harder) wax on the areas where the base burn is, and then wax the whole ski again with temp-specific wax.

[pebu]

Wow, some people are actually taking my side! That's a first. :)

(Just so everybody knows, almost nothing I say can be taken seriously.)

Phil, that's kind of what I was thinking except not quite to the extremes. If he were getting in the back seat, wouldn't the burn be around the heel of the binding or a little behind?

In one article I read (on bomber online I believe) a racer said that he concentrates all of his energy right here (6 inches in front of his toes) but then again for turn initiation it seems like you'd want it right towards the tip of your effective edge. But then again for edge hold it seems like you'd want it in the middle...

The arguements seem to go on.

I wish there were still snow so we could test out a bunch of hypotheses.

[pebu]

Basically, what you want to do is put a good coat of cold temp (harder) wax on the areas where the base burn is, and then wax the whole ski again with temp-specific wax.

Yeah, that'd probably help. It couldn't have helped that we were basically using hi-flouro wax. The morning was a little harsh on it, but it was super fast once the sun softened up the snow.

This would just be a "band-aid" though. I think if I could help him to use the whole edge on both skis then he'd be a damn good skier.

[Phil]

If he were getting in the back seat, wouldn't the burn be around the heel of the binding or a little behind?

When I say "back seat" I am not saying that he is buttering his tails. Base burn only from the heal back would be a result of only riding your tails (a fun time, especially carving - try it sometime). Being in the back seat just means that he is not pressuring the tips on his left turns, which would cause base burn right where you are talking about.

This would just be a "band-aid" though. I think if I could help him to use the whole edge on both skis then he'd be a damn good skier.

Good logic.

Of course, then you would be getting more base burn.:)

[Erik J]

Johan- One of the two mitigating factors which crossed me over to 'boarding, from ski racing, in the 80s, was my stack of knee injuries (9 surgeries...what a moron), and my asym leg length.

With skis, it's an immense issue, as one ski will always turn more easily than the other, thereby making one turn easier than the other.

being as both legs stay on one board in 'boarding, I felt less constrained by this anomaly.

Uneven leg length is far more common than most realize (I've encountered it more often than not in coaching and bootfitting)- a halfway decent coach can see it in a skier in about 4 turns.

In many cases (certainly my own) it's the result of femoral fractures in still-developing legs.

The hand-in-hand issue with this, and the chicken-and-egg vary widely, is hip canting and hip rotation.

stand up, away from the keyboard for a minute, close your eyes, bounce on your knees and ankles for a moment, shake out your arms, and let them hang by your sides, at rest. now, open your eyes (umm...AFTER you've read all this) and look at your hands, keeping them hanging limp...

is one in front of your hips and one behind?

This suggests a rotational issue with your hips, which is likely related to a leg length difference (although not neccesarily so).

this syndrome is far-too-common in aboarders, for obvious reasons.

it's also one of the reasons I encourage serious riders to spend their Summers away from the snowboard...It's good to allow the discs to decompress some, and also to allow the varioius muscles of the lower back to relax over time.

(Qui Gong tui na massage is outstanding in acceleration of this relaxation..)

anyway- look into stretching exercises for your lower back, with that leg-length asymmetry.

The argument for and against using a 'riser' under the 'short' leg is compelling on both ends.

I'm all for it, esp. if you intend to accomodate the assyemetry in your off-board life, as well. I was so-driven to consider leg-length surgery at one point (whereby the femur of one leg has a section removed and it's reattached, so as to allow it to refuse)...but my difference is pretty slight.

Look at the soles of your street shoes and check the wear pattern , much as you would on your car's tires.

similar show patterns reveal pathologies similar to those of tires....alignment IS alignment, esp. wherever rubber meets the road.

let me know what your wear patterns look like on highly-used shoes.

Taken from this thread, I was asking for insight on the fact that my legs are two different lengths. - http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=15682

or

Maybe he's riding short trails with a heavy right hand turn. Here in the tristate area at Mtn Creek NJ, I'll do laps on the same trail for a couple runs that may have me cranking right hand turns while going easier on the left. It's not hard to do on small hills. I'm reaching I know. Combine a few factors to reach the end result.

Manmade snow will also chew wax off your board faster than natural snow in my experience.

[Phil]

Erik, good post.

VLAD's post is a good one, but is over complicating this issue. In other words, what he is saying is true, but is not the first place to look when it comes to natural and unnatural turns. Think of natural and unnatural more like goofy and regular. One turn generally feels better. One direction of aerial spin feels better. Some people struggle less with this than others, but almost every skier experiences it. If you ever watch skiing halfpipe comps, you will hear the announcers talk about natural and unnatural spins.

The same issue exists in biking. I used to race MTB Downhill, Dual Slalom, and BMX. Most people have one turn better than the other.

Maybe he's riding short trails with a heavy right hand turn.

If in fact he was at a hill where he turned right more, that would not account for the fact that he is not pressuring the tips of his skis on his left turns. In this case, he would just have less base burn on the left side, not base burn in a different place.

[pebu]

It is a short hill (350ft I believe). I think the runs are pretty well straight or if they are curvy, they even out between the runs we do. And it is spring, so there's alot of wet and grainy snow. Mashed potatoes type stuff, so I'm sure that wore it down faster. It just kind of struck me as interesting I guess. Next winter I think I'm going to try to get him to do more work throughout the turn. REally get into it to initiate and then move the weight back as he comes through to get a nice snap off the tail.

[Pat Donnelly]

Have you checked for flatness and/or railed edges?

IF scrapping, even pressure applied when PULLED? Many people PUSH scrappers, which according to Hoyle, is wrong.

[pebu]

I guess I haven't really inspected for flatness. They sure don't strike me as far from flat. I do pull when scraping, just cause it seems more comfortable.

[Phil]

IF scrapping, even pressure applied when PULLED? Many people PUSH scrappers, which according to Hoyle, is wrong.

I just tell all of the scrappers to get out of my way.

Of course, when I play basketball, I am a scrapper.;)

[BobD]

Some people who spend a lot of time driving auto transmission vehicles may develope a stronger right leg. It sounds silly, but a friend who was a traffic cop in a big city (stop/start all day) actually needed physio. Teaching beginner kayak classes, it is common for students to complain that one leg is tighter than the other, always the right.

BobD

[abakker]

my advice, before any of this gets too complicated, check that the base burned areas are not raised compared to the rest of the ski. use a true bar and check carefully. if they are off, this would explain the strange placement, especially if he has never had them professionally base ground by a good ski tech.

on the other hand, he could just get virus carving skis that teflon bases...