The Norm and beyond...

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hi...

I've been reading the pages on this site for a few weeks in hopes of learning about all things carving.

So here's the deal....I started snowboarding on New Years Eve (2 months ago), without having skied ever before. I really enjoy riding in the park, rails, (you know, jibbing!) and the like, but want to learn about carving to in hopes of being well rounded. I'm using soft-boots and freeride gear (arbor push board) and am riding comfortably with angles of F/R - 32/26. The angles are no problem since I'm taller and the board is a nice width for the size of my feet. I prefer groomed, wide runs, and am sticking to greens and some blues.

Finally, this past weekend, some of it started to sink in and I was able to actually do a bit of carving in the mountains, rather than just in my head. Specifically the Norm method.

Where in learning to snowboard I had more trouble with my toeside turns, I quickly realized that carving was much harder on the heelside than it is toeside, at least for me. Rather a reversal! :rolleyes:

For the toeside, I can do all the stuff discussed in that Norm part 2 article such as facing the board and catching quite a bit of air when I come out of the turn. The catching air part is cool but I often skid out on the ensuing heelside turn.

Anyway, my problems are all with the heelside. Toeside seems obvious now and getting good angulation makes perfect sense - bend the knees deeply, get the arms parallel to the slope, put weight over the edge, etc.

It is the heelside stuff that I can't wrap my mind (or body!) around. Everything on that side feels awkward, I'm not able to really see or visualize the proper way to angulate on the heelside beyond the initial norm method. Should I bend my knees deeply as I do on the toeside? Sorry to be graphic, but what about one's backside, where the heck does it belong on these turns?!!

I'm not trying to touch the snow, do euro-carves, or imitate what I've seen in those EC videos. I just really dig that gnarly weightless feeling of carving and laying down some trenches.

Peace

[Pow]

Hmm, this is difficult considering you're on a wider board with comparatively lower angles, but youre exactly where i was at the beginning of last year's season.

heelside feels awkward to carve hard, but I'll try to give you some things to think about that have helped me.

First off: try to bring your dainty toosh over your board on heelside. leaving it out on the heelside is called "sitting on the toilet", and will make your turns feel very awkward (and look rather silly as well).

Your eyes: you should be trying to look up the hill to where you're going to be carving. this is more difficult with lower angles, so dont get discouraged if it isnt working out too well for you.

your rear arm: (the one closer to the tail of the board when facing the angles of your bindings) you should try to bring this arm across your body, towards the inside of the turn. Leaving your rear arm behind you can sometimes be like holding onto a post behind you... you'll be twisting your body but for some reason you just can't get far enough over (and its just plain uncomfterble)

Edge pressure:thinking about pushing, not trying to pull the board may help your edge hold. also, if you're not already overwhelmed thinking about everything else, try pushing towards the nose of the board with both feet at the beginning of each turn.

you seem to be catching on quickly (starting new years eve and already being past the norm), but don't get discouraged if you can't get it all at once. Sometimes it just takes practice. good luck, and welcome to bomberonline:cool:

edit: ohh, and heelside may be more difficult to turn carving rather than skidding, but it's far less painful when you fall (you're already fairly low to the ground, so your body doesnt gain as much downward velocity) so carve hard, no worries:biggthump

[Jack M]

Carving heelside on a freeride board with softboots and low angles (relatively) is without a doubt, harder to do. Bending your knees deeply before you tilt the board up on edge is not going to help, contrary to what might seem intuitive, and to what some softboot instructors might say. You don't want your knees locked of course, but just bend them a little and lean the board over. Use your knees as shock absorbers, not just to "get low". Look where you want to go, and keep your trailing hand up where you can see it throughout the carve. Think about "feeding the dollar" - feed the board into the turn like feeding a dollar bill into a change machine. That is, start the carve on the front foot, and as the carve comes around, shift smoothly back and finish with about 2/3 of your weight on your back foot. All the while, remembering to not let that trailing hand get out of your sight. Board and body must rotate in space as one unit.

Good luck!

[Guest 2board]

Take a lesson! Instead of people taking a shot in the dark about ideas to help your heelside, plunk down for a lesson. Go to the desk at your local mountain and book a private lesson. Request someone certified and say you want to improve your heelside carves. Odds are you'll get someone who can help you, if you don't simply complain at the desk or at the end of the lesson ask to see the instructor's supervisor. Or take an upper level group lesson and say to the person running the line up that you want to work on heelside carves. Do specify carves and explain that you know what it means, tons of boarders call carving what we consider skidded turns. If he/she asks what level rider you are simply say "The level that wants to work on heelside carving."

Or you can continue to post here, asking people who have never seen you ride for feedback and advice.

[philfell]

In your post you mentioned you "face your board" during a toeside. What do you mean by this?

Keep in mind that you only have two months on snow. It took many of us decades to do what we do on snow. Be somewhat patient.

[Jrobb]

Welcome,

I'm with 2board here and suggest a lesson...private lesson. For a few reasons, I'm skeptical about what level you are really at. Don't take this the wrong way but you have only been riding for 2months, are on intermediate-advanced freeride gear, and jib at angles of 32/26 (considerably high by soft boot standards but rather mellow by hardbooter eyes), and are carving and poppin air between turns on edge change? This all seems like a good fishing story. Be that as it may I have a few unanswered q's:

How often do you ride?

Are you carving, or just not skidding so much?

Did you take a beginner lesson?

Again, I'm not trying to come off as an a@# but I have this picture in my head of a horse trying to push a cart uphill...

J

[Buell]

Don't worry Bamboo_Girl, Jrobb's post could apply to any number of regular posters on Bomber. :rolleyes:

But, we all have fun anyway!

[Jrobb]

Don't worry Bamboo_Girl, Jrobb's post could apply to any number of regular posters on Bomber. :rolleyes:

But, we all have fun anyway!

...myself included:ices_ange

J

[lonerider]

Welcome,

I'm with 2board here and suggest a lesson...private lesson

J

Take a private lesson... with me JK, ahem... yes once you get over the fact that you aren't facing downhill on your toesides... toesides tend to become people's stronger side. Listen to what Jack Michaud says and just ride a lot, definite take a higher level private lesson, and after that maybe perhaps you can video yourself and post it here for people to review, you'd be amazed at all the funky things you do without realizing it. Being that you are a girl, I will guarantee that virtually every single person here will end up looking at your video and trying to help you out when you need it.

[Baka Dasai]

Increase the forward lean on your high backs.

OK, that might not be THE answer, but it's the one thing I consistently see missing from most soft-boot riders' setups that prevents them from doing good heelsides.

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hi :)

Wow, so many suggestions! All in all, a very good thing and I'm glad.

So I'll chime in on what I've done and what not.

Actually two weekends ago I did take a private lesson specifically to carve. While I didn't carve during the actual lesson, my next time out, I finally got it. Obviously that was helpful, and I may go back to the same instructor who seemed to know his stuff (a younger guy, about my age, who even knew what a eurocarve was). Maybe I will get another lesson with him, if he is free.

I've got no qualms about lessons or asking for help, really I just want to get better. Riding has gotten way, way more fun the better I've gotten so that's what I'm after.

I've maxed out the forward lean on my highbacks a while ago and found it immediately helpful. Everything happened quicker and I got better feedback.

As far as the trailing hand and such, plus the 'sitting on the toilet', this is helpful. I kept wondering, how do you do a good heelside without having your backside sticking out. Now I think I'm getting it (in my head anyway) - by turning the body to face the front of the board (rather than being sideways), that puts the backside over the board rather than sticking out. At least that's how I understood it. I do this already on the toeside and it makes the turns much, much easier.

To answer jrobb's question....really? it sounds unusual or hokey? Hmmm, well that surprises me. Snowboarding seems easy to me, way easier than skiing at least. Where some of the guys I know who started this year were linking turns right away, it took me longer, ditto with backside jumps and that sort of thing. Oh and about my binding angles, I set them up that way when I'm wanting to carve. Riding with 32/26 in the park means really basic, baby stuff only. So if I'm going to just ride in the park, then I switch my setup to 15/-9 and get rid of most of that forward lean (it makes jumps a lot harder). As for carving, well I am doing the things I said, but I bet my technique is poor and sloppy.

EDIT: Forgot to answer some more of your questions...I get 2-3 full days every week. So I've gone maybe, hmmm, 20-25 times this year? I am definitely carving on my toeside. I finally realized why all of you say 'trenches' because that's what it is, a very thin, deep circular path. Mine are smaller and tighter because I guess my board doesnt have a big sidecut. On the heelside, I can do Norm carves and link with toeside. If I do more dynamic, or I guess, half-norm carves on my toeside, then my form really breaks down and I end up skidding on the heelside. And yeap, I definitely took beginner lessons. Instead of flailing around like most of the newbies, I got a lot of help.

I'll see about getting a video, right now all I have is an old cell phone. I'd actually like to have them because I guess you could learn a lot by seeing yourself. Probably realize you aren't doing half as well as you think!

Thanks :)

[pebu]

Less than a year out... 2-3 full days a week... 20-25 times this year... You're probably already better than me.. Gosh.. Wish I could get out that often.

Bravo though.

Now go get yourself some hardboots.:)

[Allee]

Considering it took me about 10 days to learn to stand up, I'm very impressed. Stick with it. My only advise would be to try and hook up with some other carvers, and then it will all suddenly make sense. I know there are a couple of people down your way ... where has Rdy-to-Carve got to?

[Jrobb]

Bamboo that makes things clearer. Sounds like you learn by reading...one of the things I can't do very well I just sort of wing it and refine bits here and there. My gf learns like you and got a lot from a book she had read when she started out. Mostly basic stuff but she was shutting down when I tried to teach her.

You get more snow time than I do and that's great. Keep it up and who knows by next season you should be ready for hardboots and plates...throw in a SES and you're good to go.

One thing I found I need to work on is leaning into the turn...the look to where you want to go instead of where you were. Bring the rear hand up front near front foot/knee. That's what I'll be working this weekend. I manage that fine toeside but heelside goes to sh** I've been sitting on the toilet too much.

J

[D-Sub]

riding with other people helps immensely. If you're wanting to really rail...seriously get a hard boot interface and AT LEAST an all mountain type carver. If you ever see an MLY "Signature Series" shannon melhuse board...they made one in 167..that board would RULE for a "lighter" carver. Hell...Im 215-225 depending, and that thing railed hard for me.

that said...there are a couple guys from NM here. Mark Jeannengard (I TOTALLY spelled that wrong, Im sure) and Rdy2Carve (again...not looking...probably wrong)

but...check the NM ride board, too!

having started in Jan and already lookin this far ahead is awesome. good on ya! dont let your head swell ;)

btw...single? My pic is my av. The ladies love me!

[Dr D]

this all sounds great so far. It sounds like you are picking it up quickly as well.

the only thing that I see missing is that noone has had you up your angles. I carve softies as much or more than most and I find that it is essential to fit your angles to the board you are riding rather than stick with what has worked before. you should rotate the rear foot forward until the toe and heel just clear the edges. you want to have as much control on the edge as possible without hanging over even a little bit. then adjust the front foot forward a few degrees. generally the difference should be what you have been comfortable with in other setups.

I find that steering with the front knee in addition to bringing your trailing hand across your body will help drive the edge into the groom. It is more exagerated than with hard boots but still the same technique. I ride regular so my left knee gets pushed hard left on heelsides and hard right on toesides(in relationship to the board edges). this also helps keep the butt over the board on the heelside.

hope you are having fun most of all:biggthump

[philfell]

Now I think I'm getting it (in my head anyway) - by turning the body to face the front of the board (rather than being sideways), that puts the backside over the board rather than sticking out. At least that's how I understood it.

This is a bad tech to use with your set up. You have soft boots with a moderate stance angle. My advice is to lessen your angles for carving a touch. Your angles are steeper than many world cup SBXers I know. If anyone knows what works for carving a soft boot set-up these guys know. Try more like 24 in the front and 15 in the rear. Keep your body aligned with your angles don't do any twisting with your upper body. Bend your kneed and focus your pressure evenly on your heels.

Your snowboard is made to carve. If you put it on edge and do nothing it will carve. So you have to trouble shoot in your riding to find out what you are doing to make it skid instead of carve. Keep it simple and work from there.

[cafercr35]

Excellent! Excellent thread....Lots of awesome advise here. I think it may be helpful to look at a pick of a backside carve. Maybe some others should throw theirs up too! Jump in here! Here's my avatar:

[Dr D]

This is a bad tech to use with your set up. You have soft boots with a moderate stance angle. My advice is to lessen your angles for carving a touch. Your angles are steeper than many world cup SBXers I know. If anyone knows what works for carving a soft boot set-up these guys know. Try more like 24 in the front and 15 in the rear. Keep your body aligned with your angles don't do any twisting with your upper body. Bend your kneed and focus your pressure evenly on your heels.

Your snowboard is made to carve. If you put it on edge and do nothing it will carve. So you have to trouble shoot in your riding to find out what you are doing to make it skid instead of carve. Keep it simple and work from there.

I may be all wet but the BX types run on the bases more than the edges do they not???????

I realize I am in the minority on this subject but 24/15 will boot out every time unless your feet are tiny and the board is wide. the angles have to match the board in my experience. I guess you could add a lift plate and that would help you ride the lower angles. the biggest problem I found on heelsides in softies is keeping the edge engaged far enough into the turn. I solved it by rotating as if using hard boot technique and by driving my knee into the turn.

I have found this to work well as high as 55/50 provided the heels and toes are set up directly over the edges. It varies from board to board depending on width and foot size.

the 55/50 was what I ran on the F2 speedcross a bx specific board. I have big feet so it won't be that extreme for all:D

[philfell]

Yeah most SBX races you are gliding more than hard edging. But these guys do rip carves as well as I have ever seen in softies. The stance I suggested to try is similar to the stances used by the best soft boot carvers I know. I would be willing to bet that Graham could out carve just about anyone who post here, myself included on his SBX set-up.

I rarely boot out on my Malolo with 18/-9. And I really doubt bamboo girl will run into a boot out problem on her Arbor anytime in the near future. The problem is that when you get too high of an angle with softies your binding no longer supports the boot the way it is designed to do. Lower the stance angles and you begin to work with the equipment again.

You are right about angles matching the board, but there are thousands of people who carve turns with angles much lower than what I suggested with no problems, watch how much edge angle top level HP riders get from time to time and look at what stances they ride. It is mandatory for them to be able to carve both edges in both directions in order to go as big as they go.

Just some things to think about.

[lonerider]

I may be all wet but

My experience follow Philfell's comments. While I ride 55/50 on my alpine decks (following the same setting your angles for your board width idea) and I've ridden up to 36/33 on my freeride board - I don't believe that you need to crank up the angles so much on a freeride board with softboots when learning how to carve. Booting out is only a problem when the board is way leaned over and you can get a lot of carving done before that happens (walk before run type of thing). Similarly knee-steering technique is mainly for hardboots and high angles - not for softboots and strap bindings which typically are not laterally stiff enough to do that.

I ride 21/15 on my Prior Khyber (weird coincidence) and ride with my shoulders parallel to my bindings (not turned completely towards the nose of the board). I do tuck my butt in an over the board edge though, I just don't have such an extreme shoulder twist. BTW, I ride 18/-6 on my freestyle deck.

If you can get the board up on edge and have you weight balanced over the edge, then the board will carve...

[Dr D]

I have seen some decent duck carvers on the hill for sure. John Mcginnis's kid for one. to be honest I haven't ridden a strapped binding in over ten years. I ride Ntype vans stepins which have an internal hardback in the boot maybe that is the difference.

I assumed we were looking to lay over and carve rather than just rudimentary edging. technique varies with conditions as well. I get very surfy if things get soft and I really have to shift gears to make the change. But I stand by my previous statements on good hard groom. I haven't had as much luck holding an edge completely through the turn and starting the next turn with the downhill edge any other way on softies. binding and boot interface and design would definitely be huge factors though.

[lonerider]

I assumed we were looking to lay over and carve rather than just rudimentary edging.

Ah, that's the reason for the disconnect. Here's a little excerpt from the original post all of us were replying to.

So here's the deal....I started snowboarding on New Years Eve (2 months ago), without having skied ever before. I prefer groomed, wide runs, and am sticking to greens and some blues.

Finally, this past weekend, some of it started to sink in and I was able to actually do a bit of carving in the mountains, rather than just in my head. Specifically the Norm method.

It is the heelside stuff that I can't wrap my mind (or body!) around. Everything on that side feels awkward, I'm not able to really see or visualize the proper way to angulate on the heelside beyond the initial norm method.

I'm not trying to touch the snow, do euro-carves, or imitate what I've seen in those EC videos. I just really dig that gnarly weightless feeling of carving and laying down some trenches.

I guess you jumped into the conversation a little late and didn't catch the earlier part of the thread.

to be honest I haven't ridden a strapped binding in over ten years. I ride Ntype vans stepins which have an internal hardback in the boot maybe that is the difference. I haven't had as much luck holding an edge completely through the turn and starting the next turn with the downhill edge any other way on softies. binding and boot interface and design would definitely be huge factors though.

Well hardboots still slay softboots for carving... but a lot has happened in the last 10 years in softboots and bindings... while I'm told that Burton and Raichle/Deeluxe boots are essentially exactly the same as they were 10 years ago (same molds) :( Of course TD2 and Cateks OS2 have be ever-evolving - getting better and better!

[just give 'er]

When some of my instructor buddies and me go out to ride we usually spend the morning on plates and the afternoon on our freeride gear. While I freely admit that we carve steeper, and faster with greater g's on our plates, we carve all afternoon on our soft setups as well (in between park hits, riding bumps, steeps and trees). I have to say every one of us rides duck on our freeride set ups, most around 15, -5 or 10, -5. With a proper width board toe drag isn't that great of a problem. Throw on some Catek freeride pro's and give yourself some lift and it's all gone.

With Duck or other mellow angles the body should be kept aligned with the mid line axis of the board, some anticipation is neccessary buitas with all high end riding the majority of the steering force should come from the lower body.

No matter what your angles, keeping the upper body aligned with your stance is vital to successful riding.

As for the heelside, think of flexing down to control the pressure within a tube that extends straight up from your board. Don't stick your bum out of the back of the tube or break at the waist.

Thanks all,

MCS

[Phil]

My apologies in advance to Boostertwo for stealing his pic from another thread: