2007 USASA Nationals fees

[AndyYT316]

I know Wavechaser and I have been on the USASA board and complained about the new Nationals fees, but it looks like the thread has been deleted there. Nationals is now $250 for one event, $300 for 2 to 3, and $350 for 4-5 events. The $250 includes 3 lift tickets, the $300 includes 4 lift tickets and $350 includes 6 lift tickets. No more flat $250 flat rate with a weeks worth of lift passes.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

that is really going to crimp some styles.

There is good and bad to both. If you not racin there for 4/5 days you can hit Squawlywood. Kirkwood or Heavenly. Diffuse the spend on Nationals hit em in the pocket book.

[ncermak]

long and short of it...you can't have it both ways. people complain about having to pay flat rate and only compete in one or two events, or people complain that their one or two events price doesn't get a week of lift tickets...

With the national ranking system, this makes sense. there will be fewer kids getting wildcards into other events...just because they are already going.

[philfell]

Does anyone know what the open class prize money is? If they didn't make an adjustment there, I doubt any of my athletes will go.

[Strider]

I know that there are some problems with the NASTAR format, but if your racers are looking for an end of the season fun race, I would recommend it. It was a ton more fun than USASA was, and I got a huge stack of SWAG, lots of free food, and some good free entertainment(bands, movies) with my $200 entry fee. Even won a speedsuit. This year the age class winners get a Descente jacket.

Anyway, looks liken they might start taking sbnowboarding a little more seriously there. They moved all of the snowboarders onto one course after a lot of helpful suggestions from us who were at last years race. I have not heard if they are going to set snowboard gates, but at least everybody on a board will be in the same place.

The competition is not as good as most other races, but if you're looking for a good time with some racing thrown in, its a much better deal than USASA.

[neil sunday]

NASTAR nationals may be a great race, but i think they have some work to do if they are just now considering using snowboard gates. considering stubbies came out in 1996-97 season, they are only about 10 years behind the times...

in all seriousness, running ski gates is not even in the same ballpark as running stubbies. body mechanics, line, impact are all totally different. I consider them dangerous to the body for snowboarders.

[Strider]

I agree with what you are saying on the gates. I was just pointing out that it is a good place to go if you are looking for some fun, and not serious racing. In all honesty, once you're up into my age class USASA isn't all that great of a race either, unless you can make it into the open class.

Skier gates are definitely harder for snowboarders, but I'm not so sure about the dangerous part. I take a lot more hits from the stubbies on the back of my trailing leg, and the tall inside gate on wraparounds on the back of my head than I do from the skier gates. I would definitley take stubbies everytime if I could find places to run them everyday, but around the midwest we have to take what we can get as far as courses goes. The one good thing about running lines on skier gates is that stubbies are real easy after that, even wen the course gets turnier.

Anyway, my point was mostly that it was more bang for the buck if you aren't looking for a super serious race, which I don't consider USASA to be either.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

I've done both as a competitor and a coach. I will say Nastar seems to run on time against the sometimes spotty times for ASA. Not a serious knock but that can make for a really long day. I agree the swag factor is higher in Nastar, however if the kids are not racers (like HP/SS/Cross) it will do them no good. It is a specialists event.

They both have the good and bad points costs vs costs, gates/gates, travel, locations etc.

Depends on what your or the riders competitive track is - Nastar can be a cool alternative if the kids or adults can't swing Norcal costs etc etc.

It would be a coin flip.

[Strider]

Well Said. I would definitely agree with that.

I've been watching all of the discussions you guys have been having this year as you are all more well versed in this stuff than I am and I have to agree that it is too bad that there isn't a more cohesive track for bringing up the young kids. the coverage across the country is spotty for all of the different organizations. Maybe one day things will get better if we all keep working at it. As it stands, more competitors in all of the organizations is good for exposure.

[neil sunday]

well stated strider. as long as there is interest in the sport, and youth to fill the voids as veterans retire, the sport of snowbaord racing will continue. the more of us that are involved and communicating will help things along!

[wavechaser]

WARNING!! LONG-WINDED PASSAGE AHEAD!!

A couple comments on the posts above - and please remember, these are my opinions only. :)

Skier gates - I've posted elsewhere that I like them for slalom...and I'm not alone. When Stacia Hookum recently retired she lamented the change to stubbies in SL, and commented that other racers she knew felt the same way.

(http://www.transworldsnowboarding.com/snow/news/article/0,26719,1580980,00.html)

In slalom we don't angulate like we do in GS, and there is only one stick, so you don't get whacked in the back like in GS. Flushes are fun!

As far as NASTAR goes - I still feel the competition there is a far cry from USASA. I know USASA is not USSA/FIS, but even in my division (40-49) the top 10 USASA racers are WAY better than anything you'll find at the NASTAR Nationals. I see we lost Railey to Open class this year, a very commendable effort on his part, but we still have some good ones among us, and new blood from the Masters division joining us this year. I think running NASTAR (and certain USASA regions - more on that in a minute) can give you a false sense of confidence and your ability. The typical NASTAR course is flat and a very easy set; so the speed and angulation are also not such that you really get whacked when you hit a gate. Today was a prime example of why top level snowboard GS races should not use skier gates. I was training with GMVS on a steep hill with about a 55-60 second course, set very tight. These guys set serious courses because they are some of the best up and coming junior ski racers in the country. The course was VERY fast and the set was just about world cup level as they wanted their racers to work on their line while going mega fast today. I ran it 6 times and on heelside I was OK hitting gates, albeit getting the backslash head/shoulder whack, but on toeside, if I had taken the line I really needed to take, at that speed and angulation I would have gotten just killed! So even being patient with the rise line I still had to stay a little outside of the skier's line - making for some "hang on" heelsides if the next gate was tight. The point is obvious - on a real GS course skier gates aren't practical for us. At least not if we want to take a good line. I've never seen a NASTAR course anywhere near as tough as the GMVS courses, even though ours here at Sugarbush is tougher than most. The courses at NASTAR Nationals are usually far easier than our daily course here. Stubbies ONLY for snowboard GS! The only bummer I find with USASA GS courses, at least in the northeast, is that with a couple exceptions, the hills we race on are WAY too tame and the courses WAY too short. It was such a joy to train on that GMVS GS today with bumps and rolls and steeps and rhythm changes - and a 60 second leg burner run!

The USASA and I have had our disagreements, but it's mostly because I open my mouth without thinking first at times. But this year I really started to become disillusioned with their whole organization. First, the Executive Director "retires" right before the season. Why not do that in the spring and give us time to get a new XD? We STILL don't have one, although Jason T. is being referred to as Executive Administrator. He and I had a little go-round about the alpine days being split for Group 5 only, which caused me HUGE expense because I had already made my travel plans based on the schedule Tom Collins posted on the USASA forum earlier in the season. The main reason I got upset, aside from the huge increase in travel expense to attend the Nationals, is that the Tom Collins was wholly blamed for the snafu, and the USASA said they could do nothing about it. They claimed they did not know about Tom's posted schedule, that he had no right to post it, and that they could not remove the post even if they wanted to. I then posted in the USASA forum a note for people to check the "official" schedule if they had only seen Tom's. A nasty back and forth between Tom and I ensued where he claimed that what I was told by USASA was complete BS, and that I was full of it too. Now rightly so, this ugliness was pulled from the forum by USASA post haste - but it seems they CAN pull forum posts any time they want (so that excuse was a platitude) and the USASA and TC have no problem blaming each other for the schedule snafu...which leaves who holding the bag? That's right, the riders who pay the fees to race. I was also told that one Group 5 HAS TO have a five day split of their alpine events, but last year the biggest split was THREE days, so that is not true either. I just HATE being given the brush off like that. If there DOES need to be a split of alpine days, it makes absolutely no sense to do it with Group 5 when Group 1 has nearly HALF the alpine contestants (85) that Group 5 does (160) - and the youngsters in Group 1 are MUCH more likely to do FS/BX/SS events in between than the older alpine riders are...just look at the numbers.

Now I am still going to Nationals of course - I've invested WAY too much time and money already to not go...but I definitely have a bad taste in my mouth and will probably not go next year. That doesn't matter one iota as far as advancing US Snowboard alpine racing, because I am 45, but if younger folks experience this kind of dis-organization, they may think twice about competing too. Just Phil's comment above that he may not bring his Open Class riders this year is a terrible sign!

Noah - I hear what you are saying about the entry fees, but when people doing one or two events wanted to avoid paying the same entry fee as those people doing five events, I believe they were thinking more along the lines of SAVING some money, not spending MORE. Something like this: if five events are $250, then that is $50 per event, so maybe two events for $100? Now it's two events for $50 MORE than the ENTIRE fee last year - AND you get less days riding, although as DFJ pointed out you could go to Kirkwood etc. instead...but you are still paying more and getting less. The biggest problem I have with this whole scenario is not really the price/ticket thing; it is that I had to find out about it from the Northstar website instead of my governing body! Why not tell us about this sooner - it feels like it was just being withheld to later spring it on us when it is too late to back out. At the very least the USASA must have known a while ago that the rates/tickets would change, and could have at least told us that much if not the actual fees.

The USASA is doing a heck of a lot with very little, and I commend Jason and the board for doing what they can and trying their best. It seems though, that there need to be some changes if this organization is to become, and WANTS to become, all that they can. It's true that, for alpine at least, having just two or three races in each discipline in your regional series is not much racing, especially when compared to a "J" ski racing program. But here in New England at least, with a little traveling by car, you can do far more events than that - I did 23 races last year and 16 this year. Maybe a wide area division series could be implemented for racers willing to commit to more events? If we really want our alpine racers to have the best shot at being competitive at the top levels, more often, I feel we need to stop babying the kids so much. By this I mean things like the flat hills and easy course sets I see a lot - if it is too hard then they will need to practice and get better. Letting them go first in start order also is not preparing them for racing in chopped up or rutted courses. The "it's not who you beat, it's who you meet" mentality is nice, and has its place in freestyle maybe, but RACING IS about who you beat, period! I actually had a series director say to me, at a RACE this year - "you're all about racing aren't you"...I was floored and speechless..."it's a RACE" I wanted to shout, but I think I just walked away dazed.

Things I'd like to see in USASA alpine races:

- Overall medals (at least in regional races where we all race the same day)

to really give everyone in the race something to shoot for. Scott P. does

this in the Southern VT series and it really adds another dimension to the

competition. I think modifying that idea to cover not just overall, but Men's

AND Women's overall medals are a good idea. Division medals are great but if

you really want to measure yourself overalls are the way to go.

- Longer courses with more of a classic ski racing set, especially in SL. The

back and forth courses with 20-25 second times are a drag and too easy.

- This may cause an uproar, but how about requiring ALPINE equipment for

ALPINE races over a certain age? I see a lot of fast riders who could be

getting a lot better if they raced alpine boards. And if they don't switch to

alpine setups sooner than later, they don't have much hope of ever getting

as good as the Europeans who have been on them since early in their racing careers.

That's more than enough hot air out of me for now. Gotta go race!

[philfell]

I didn't read the entire post above, but wanted to make a few comments on what I did read.

First, ski GS courses are far different than snowboard courses. Skiers don't run parrell races, and snowboarder almost exclusively do now. The max GS distance is 25 meters from turning pole to turning pole. It is common to have world cup ski races with 32 meter turns.

Second the GS hill that they use at USASA nationals is about as tame as it gets. Angel Fire was flat with three pitch turns. Copper hill was OK but USASA wouldn't rent two hills so they had to unsafely squeeze as SL next to it, so the GS sets were lame. Norstar is a complete tuck fest.

I used to be pro tall pole SL until I ran one after running stubbies after a few years. Tall pole in SL suck. They lead to bad body position, increased shin bang, and more injuries in general. Ski GS panels IS a safty issue.

Jimmy Railey rules, today he was only 2 seconds behind some of the top Nor-Am riders on my team on a 39 second course. I give him huge props for going into Open class.

Scott Palmer runs some of the best events you will ever go to.

[wavechaser]

First, ski GS courses are far different than snowboard courses. Skiers don't run parrell races, and snowboarder almost exclusively do now. The max GS distance is 25 meters from turning pole to turning pole. It is common to have world cup ski races with 32 meter turns.

Yup, but the GMVS course today was easy 25 meters, on a steep pitch - tight, tight, tight and OH SO FUN!!

Norstar GS is a complete tuck fest.

Absolutely - SL hill is good, but GS is like a NASTAR at Okemo! And don't try to say "tuck fest" ten times fast. ;)

I used to be pro tall pole SL until I ran one after running stubbies after a few years. Tall pole in SL suck. They lead to bad body position, increased shin bang, and more injuries in general. Ski GS panels IS a safty issue.

I still like 'em in SL...must be the old ski racer in me!

Jimmy Railey rules, today he was only 2 seconds behind some of the top Nor-Am riders on my team on a 39 second course. I give him huge props for going into Open class.

Great guy too, what I know of him. We'll miss him in Legends at USASA's...if I do well it just won't seem right if he is not racing with us. Mid-forties (age) in Open Class is HUGE...go get 'em Jimmy!!

Scott Palmer runs some of the best events you will ever go to.

Yes sir he does...lucky to have him here!

[wavechaser]

There's more dicussion of the original topic in this thread here:

http://71.9.29.50/usasa/cgi-bin//ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000486

Jason has a good point, which I often forget - that USASA is practically all volunteer, and there is ZERO sponsorship. I get as little over zealous in my criticism of those folks sometimes, and DO forget to give kudos for the GOOD stuff that gets done.

I'm sure we all wish things were different with USASA...especially for the kids who want to become world class level racers. Thank god for people like Phil F., DFJ and Scott P. (and those who do the same kind of work) who put their passion into the sport for very little if any financial reward and help those kids move towards that dream.

We are just a fringe sport in this country - thatz the way it is. For now. I'll never stop hoping that will change. :)

[philfell]

Funny you say 25 meters is tight. Whenever I set that distance, everyone claims I'm trying to kill them and it's too big of a turn. Most Nor-Am events I set are around 22 meters.

I think of a tight GS like the one Casanova set at Norquay 19m. Not all that legal, but it did run well.

[wavechaser]

Funny you say 25 meters is tight. Whenever I set that distance, everyone claims I'm trying to kill them and it's too big of a turn. Most Nor-Am events I set are around 22 meters.

I think of a tight GS like the one Casanova set at Norquay 19m. Not all that legal, but it did run well.

The hill we set on was STEEP, and I didn't measure of course, just guessing, but I'd say the vertical distance between the gates, along with the speed from so steep a hill, was what made it seem so tight. It might have been 20 meters for all I know. I was on my FP 185 race stocker with 16m radius and I really had to bend hard it to stay in line. Bear in mind of course that I am a USASA Legends racer who will race in my first EVER NorAm at Bromley RTTC next week at age 45 - so I'm not the "source" on this stuff. All I know is that that course today was FAR tougher than any USASA GS I've ever run.

[philfell]

Cool of you to enter the Bromley race. We'll be there. I think it will be an eye opener. If you read much of what it posted here, then you see what the top US guys are doing, you will probably rethink much of how you go about turning a snowboard.

[wavechaser]

Cool of you to enter the Bromley race. We'll be there. I think it will be an eye opener. If you read much of what it posted here, then you see what the top US guys are doing, you will probably rethink much of how you go about turning a snowboard.

I hope so - that is one of the reasons I wanted to go. I hope to get schooled but learn as much as possible while at school! I'll be the old guy on one of Klug's old black FP 185's (for the GS at least). :)

[Sinecure]

For those of you who are coming to USASA Nationals this year, post up in Tahoecarvers.com so we can arrange to hook up and ride together. I think its a great concept that they aren't making you buy all 6 days worth of tix at Northstar, but too bad they are charging as much this year for 2 days tix as they did for 6 days tix last year. For those of us who are locals (or worse yet, already have Flatstar passes), its seems like a huge investment. I'm not doing Nationals this year, but for other reasons (local league schedule is a major PITA for me).

Last year right after nationals we had some of the best powder Tahoe has seen. Who knows if that will happen again, but there are definitely folks over at Tahoecarvers who are very accomodating hosts.

Places other than Northstar to consider riding if you're coming to Nationals and have days for freeriding:

-Alpine Meadows - awesome off-piste and an open boundary policy - freshies into the afternoon on powder days. $46 daily lift tix.

-Squaw Valley (Squallywood) - Big mountain riding at the site of the 1960 Olympics. Great grooming and very good weekday carving location. More hardbooters than most other Tahoe areas. Good apres skiing in the village. Expensive and gets tracked out fast on a powder day.

Mt. Rose - the Reno locals hill. Find some awesome EC folks here on weekday mornings.

Heavenly - great views of the lake and lots of quad-burning traverses

Kirkwood - far from Northstar but some awesome terrain and home to a large contingent of the Tahoecarvers crew.

Boreal - aka Boringal. Small but a jibbers delight. Kind of like a midwest or east coast small hill but with tons of snow.

Sugarbowl - old school ski area with some great chutes and spines.

Homewood - family area with great lake views and well protected on a windy powder day.

[Rob Smith]

I was racing a 185, 15m Klug board up till last Jan. (breaking my arm on course) Fast foreword to this winters race season. Lost my mojo. Borrowed my son's 178, 14m Prior, peace of cake. Mojo back. At 53 (192 lbs) I feel young again!

Oh Ya, Races in Ontario approx. $60 / race, including lift ticket. These are serious races (FIS spec.) including, pgs w/professional start gates, CSF TD & averaging about 40 racers. We also have a recreational race series (rookies & younger racers) that average about 35 racers

[Guest dragon fly jones]

Funny you say 25 meters is tight. Whenever I set that distance, everyone claims I'm trying to kill them and it's too big of a turn. Most Nor-Am events I set are around 22 meters.

I think of a tight GS like the one Casanova set at Norquay 19m. Not all that legal, but it did run well.

That would be your boys G&J. They make me laugh.

I feel the need for speed. Set it, slip it, rip it.

[Scuff]

No more flat $250 flat rate with a weeks worth of lift passes.

-Seems like a fairly recent decision, or maybe I just can't find the info on-line.

Would you have a link?

-Kinda stinks about the cut in lift passes....but perhaps this decision will also help with those long lift lines we had last year.

I doubt any of my athletes will go.

I watched a few of your riders last year - very impressive. I was

hoping to see how I would measure up this year riding in O.C.

Bummer if you don't come, but I can totally understand.

I hope to get schooled but learn as much as possible while at school!

Right on!!!! Thanks for the post and the follow-ups. Well said!

I am really curious to hear about your RTTC experience. Maybe I can track you down at Nationals this year and hear first-hand.

I did pretty well last year in Señor Mens, but hope to train-up and do the RTTC tour next season. All I know is USASA and NASTAR..

this USSA / FIS stuff sounds pretty intimidating/intense.

Cheers,

~Karl K.

[Strider]

This is always interesting stuff. There really isn't too much competition around here on the easier courses ( Scuff needs to come down here so we can ride some) and we are definitley limited by our hill as to the sets we can do. I have always wondered what it would be like to race on a pro-level course. Sounds like it would be a kick in the pants good time for amateur racers like me. How hard is it to try one of these races you guys have talked about, and do people get upset when people like myself show up? Anyway, at 35 its not like I'm going to do whole lot, but it would be fun to measure oneself against the guys who really know how to ride.

Keep us all informed with how things go....its interesting reading for some of us

[philfell]

At FIS races the more people who show up to race the better.

[wavechaser]

This is always interesting stuff. There really isn't too much competition around here on the easier courses ( Scuff needs to come down here so we can ride some) and we are definitley limited by our hill as to the sets we can do. I have always wondered what it would be like to race on a pro-level course. Sounds like it would be a kick in the pants good time for amateur racers like me. How hard is it to try one of these races you guys have talked about, and do people get upset when people like myself show up? Anyway, at 35 its not like I'm going to do whole lot, but it would be fun to measure oneself against the guys who really know how to ride.

Keep us all informed with how things go....its interesting reading for some of us

Anyone can enter, but you need a USSA membership ($100) and at least an FIS provisional license ($10 - or $75 for full FIS license) for RTTC NorAms. I'm 45, but I wouldn't enter if I though I would embarrass myself. I didn't even consider it until I saw some Southern VT USASA kides whom I have beaten before in the middle of the pack at some NorAm races earlier this year, so I should at least be competitive. No chance I'll make the round of 16 of course, but somewhere in the second half of the field, above last, and I'll be very happy. I hope to learn a lot, check out some top level equipment, meet some new people, be mistaken for being 35 years old, and just have a great time. :) Oh yeah, and maybe ride up the chair with Alexa if she's racing!