Quest for the "HOLY RAIL"

[bumpyride]

Here's my thoughts: I'd like to get a resort powder board. Already have a swallowtail, fish, and a Burton Coil 164.

I like the Burton Coil best anytime, other than deeper powder, where the speed has to be kept to the max. When the snow ruts up the Coil is the only one that doesn't bounce me around, and I can take it into the bumps and crud and roll on to the lifts without killing myself.

Obviously the swallowtail O'Sin 168 floats the best and is a blast until the powder gets all beat up and it's just misery in crud. The fish also works well, but has the same shortcomings as the O'Sin.

My favorite board for the resorts is Burton Ultra, when I'm not on a carving mission. The board is light, responsive and holds a great edge on icy bumps and steeps.

So we have different boards for different aspects of riding, but the quest for the "HOLY RAIL" is never over. So why not take the best qualities of all the boards and try to combine them in one.

Prow nose, or upturned soft tip, narrower waist with a tapered tail,say 2 cm or widening the tip 2 cm, an extra set of t-nuts so you can have a little bigger setback. and still a stiffer board than either a fish or especially a swallowtail. Now from what I see of the Powder Skis, the pair would just about total the waist of my Ultra.

Remember, this is a resort Powder Board. Something that will get me through most resort powder days, get me back down to the lifts without wasting a lot of energy and getting back up to the Powder, and still having the stiffnes to get out of dicey spots.

[Thor VonRippington]

I just retired my 12 year old Tanker and replaced it with a new one. Sounds to me it's what you are looking for.

[bumpyride]

Actually I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to do this in the 158 to 160 range with no bigger than a 19cm waist?

[Dr D]

your OSIN isn't good in the crud????????? I think you had better define powder for us. In everything fresh and deep up to the consistency of wet cement the OSIN 4807 has served me well. It is easier to soak up bumps with forward angles in my experience and to pick your line and turn in the piles rather than the troughs. It will carve reasonably enough to get to the lift without looking like a park monkey and its great in the moguls. what boots and bindings are you using with it? another thing that works for me is loosening up when it gets deep or heavy a tight stiff setup doesn't allow you to absorb the bumps it transmits them directly to you. hardboots maybe walk mode loose tops etc. soft boots loosen up the upper part of the boot and even the binding itself. hard boot bindings go to a softer feeling binding like an F2 etc.

I reread your post and the CASCADE version of powder is definitely a heavier problem PUN intended!

[utahcarver]

I'll second Thors' Tanker recommendation. You don't have to get the 200 but, I'd say since you are in Washington state you've probably got the right conditions for a 200cm (see: Bryan at oldsnowboards.com). If you go shorter, you still have the excellent float and carve that all the Tankers have.

I rode all last season with two NEW NEVER RIDDEN swallowtails in my basement in favor of the Tanker for all the soft days.

Thank you and have fun finding a new powder ride. Let us know what you get!

Mark

[bumpyride]

Hey Bumpy,

What is your weight? Maybe a 178cm O'Sin 4807 would give you a better glide on the soft runs. I am 185 lbs. and I love my 178cm 4807. I recently bought the little sister to the 4807, a 169cm O'Sin 3800. I haven't tried it yet, but that might be a good board to try out.

I used to ride a Burton UP, but I folded the nose on a soft groomed run and it scared me enough to sell it before I broke it.

4807 is my board of choice for pow on top of groomed, my Fish for the trees and my 3800 is still in the wrapper.

--Hugh

I'm weighing in at 150, and I don't like the O'Sin or the Fish (I have both boards) in anything other than pure powder days. Even then, I usually change boards just before lunch if it's all tracked out.

So I have the Boards when the powder is good. I think that I'm looking for the days when it's good and bad and mixed between powder stashes and bumps and crud.

I rode my last Ultra Prime probably 250 days before I folded it, and then it was coming off a little headwall and dropping into a deep trough of a bump. I have a couple more to replace it, but it's only used off of groomers.

So what I'm looking for is some ideas on whether this 158 to 160

25 to 26 cm tip

70 +-Nose height and softer

19cm waist

23 cm tail, just slightly raised

sidecut of about 9

and a stiffer (like an Ultraprime) flex

is gonna work. If not why, and if not does anyone really have any experience with this.

[Dr D]

406-250-2220 call john mcginnis he has a few in that size range made up and they are what you are looking for almost exactly what you just described. I ride one in a 174 on those conditions when the OSIN isn't the thing for the job. It is stiffer than an average board, carves like a demon and cuts through the crap with ease! very reasonably priced custom boards.

[bumpyride]

your OSIN isn't good in the crud????????? I think you had better define powder for us. In everything fresh and deep up to the consistency of wet cement the OSIN 4807 has served me well. It is easier to soak up bumps with forward angles in my experience and to pick your line and turn in the piles rather than the troughs. It will carve reasonably enough to get to the lift without looking like a park monkey and its great in the moguls. what boots and bindings are you using with it? another thing that works for me is loosening up when it gets deep or heavy a tight stiff setup doesn't allow you to absorb the bumps it transmits them directly to you. hardboots maybe walk mode loose tops etc. soft boots loosen up the upper part of the boot and even the binding itself. hard boot bindings go to a softer feeling binding like an F2 etc.

I reread your post and the CASCADE version of powder is definitely a heavier problem PUN intended!

I'm in the Cascades, and that Powder for the most part has a really high water content. After the first crosstracks it usually changes to hardpack then heavy fluff, kind of like when you first grab that snow and make it into the most perfect snowball you've ever seen. It's great till that happens. That's why I'd like, and I guess I should have said "Cascade Powder Resort Board".

My angles of the O'Sin are about 50 and 30. I ride Raichle 123's duct taped in the walk mode, and I usually use Burton Carrier plates, because they are loose and flexy.

Angles on Ultra Prime are 66 and 45 same boots and bindings.

[bumpyride]

First thanks for the opinions. I'll be looking at those alternatives, call John McGinnis and look a little closer at tankers.

Now what I would like is someone to speculate as to whether this board would work, and if not why, the reason being I've never seen anything like this and can't figure out why it wouldn't work for me. Not the best at any one thing, but something that would float well when I need it to, and still be light enough and short enough for narrow hard chutes as the powder sloughs off, and then back to the bump and crud thing.

158 to 160

25 to 26 cm tip

70 +-Nose height and softer

19cm waist

23 cm tail, just slightly raised

sidecut of about 9

and a stiffer (like an Ultraprime) flex

is gonna work.

Pay particular attentin to the 19cm waist. I like steep angles on my off piste boards 66 & 45. Too wide of a board and my leverage decreases substantially, and everything slows up.

[dshack]

How do y'all toss your Ultra's around in crud and trees? I have a hard time getting it through any narrow backcountry situations.

[terekhov]

beaten up 4 year old donek axis 182 is my LOVELY resort all-ride board, esp. in mogul fields and open glades. i'm 200lbs pretty aggressive rider. if I take single board to big mountain with offpiste - it's axis for sure.

[bumpyride]

How do y'all toss your Ultra's around in crud and trees? I have a hard time getting it through any narrow backcountry situations.

Off piste only: You have to realize that groomers are only the last resort for me. I carve only when there is nothing else to do, or the conditions are so ****ty off piste that I don't want to be there.

First of all, anything over 4 to 6" of powder on the Ultra is going to be trouble.

Second, I use a 156 Ultra, a short almost useless full blown carving board on groomers (at least for my size and weight). The board is very light, short, lively and is easily taken airborne. Almost all turns are done with the board off the snow. These turns are in no way like a carve. You stay on edge just long enough to set for the next direction change (a jump turn or close to it depending on the terrain), and still be able to keep your shoulders perpendicluar to the fall line. Think of the turns more as check turns. You can check your speed while setting up for the next turn.

Third I weigh 150 lbs. wear a 26.5 or 27.5 Raichle 123 (a 3 buckle soff hardboot) that is duct taped in the walk mode, with angles set at 66 / 45. These angles and boots in the walk mode allow me a more stable and flexible platform so that I can whip the rear of the board much more quickly than typical carving angles, and locked boots, feather the edge when landing on steeper, icier snow, and pull the board up off the snow. Try sliding down an icy sidewalk and see where the angles of your feet end up. For me those angles are 66 / 45, not 60 / 54 which are my carving angles. The 66 / 45 angles are not recommended for any kind of groomer carving days.

Fourth, I use Burton Carrier Bindings that are very flexible

Now this becomes more difficult as the snow gets deeper, which is why I'm looking for a narrower board with these dimensions, or having a board built with these specs, with the waist width being 19cm if at all possible.

158 to 160

25 to 26 cm tip

70 +-Nose height and softer

19cm waist

23 cm tail, just slightly raised

sidecut of about 9

and a stiffer (like an Ultraprime) flex

My question on "Holy Rail" reflects the fact that I want a short, light, lively, stiff, narrower board that is going to float. For me in these situations a 20cm waist is just too wide and doesn't enable me to set an edge in the steeps or bumps as quickly or effectively as a narrower board.

Now as I watch softbooters in the same terrain, they don't have the control or the ability to make the "same turns" as quickly or as suredly as my oldest son and myself do in hardboots.

I understand that guys in softboots can do the same terrain, with a different technique, but I find myself unable to effect the same short quick certain turns in anything but a shorter stiffer hardboot setup. Last weekend I found myself going through kneedeep and then into ice in narrow chutes around 45 degrees and short section drops onto very hard conditions. Soft, long boards just don't do it in these situations where you have limited space and hard and steep condtions, which is exactly where we want to be. There is no substitute for being able to rely on your board to be able to cut directly across a headwall without washing out.

I might add that in powder conditons there is no loss of freedom or feel with a combination of a softer flex 3 buckle hardboot in the walk mode and a flexible plate binding which is the antithesis of a full blown carving set up.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Your waist requirements are at odds with your design goals. You're going to lose float with a 19 cm waist. Have you tried riding shallower angles?

ETA: Having said that, one of the narrow-waisted Coiler AM 169 Extremes might be something like you want. Specs here. Check out Dave Morgan's review of it here, it's review #10.

[bumpyride]

Your waist requirements are at odds with your design goals. You're going to lose float with a 19 cm waist. Have you tried riding shallower angles?

ETA: Having said that, one of the narrow-waisted Coiler AM 169 Extremes might be something like you want. Specs here. Check out Dave Morgan's review of it here, it's review #10.

I have gone to shallower angles on my powder boards (O'Sin 4807 and Fish 156) but it still doesn't do me right in those narrow, icey, bumpy chute situations. Also a 169 feels way too long in these conditions. I guess you could liken it to riding a long skate board in a freestyle comp. It's just too long to do all the tricks.

The idea is to see if I can improve the float to an acceptable degree on days other than "Epic". It's not supposed to be a perfect board for those days, but a more effective all terrain vehicle when the powder at a manageable depth, and still retain the shortboard characteristics.

I can get by with my two coil 156 and 164, but still long for a stiffer narrower waist. I have to believe that a wider softer nose, and a 2 to 3cm taper on the tail would float that way better. Also I'm thinking that a pair of Powder skis that get up and over the top are not much different in waist width than 19cm, especially for my weight.

My second or third board was an old Burton Amp 5 or 150cm in length and 213 waist width gave me pretty good float, so I'm speculating on the Holy Rail and waiting for someone to tell me that it definitely won't work and back it up with some real facts.

I'm going to look at the coilers.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I ride an AM 172 in narrow and bumpy conditions. I tend to avoid those conditions if it's icy, so I can't speak to the trifecta. I guess it's down to personal preference, as I've never owned a board narrower than 21.5 and never ridden angles above 45. But I've been told that in conditions where you need to transfer edges quickly and strongly, shallower angles can be effective, which is why the slalom racers are on wider boards these days. It certainly works fine for me, and I have no reason to change.

[bumpyride]

That's one one of the great things about winter sports. You get to ride with all different styles, skiing and boarding. All kinds of different things work for different people.

We ride with anyone that cares to go to the off piste, whether they ski or board. Some of the areas are as described and rather dicey. Both my oldest and I run on the same kind of gear, and my youngest who's built like the proverbial outhouse, runs on clickers, on a very stiff Santa Cruz freecarve. He's strong but washes out quite frequently. Trips include some really fine skiers and again it's all off piste.

I looked up the Coiler Extreme, and that looks pretty close, and the specs say 19cm waist. Evidently that works out, at least there wasn't anything said about lack of float. Didn't list the tip and tail width, but as I get more input, I'll hopefully be able to define what's going to work on the shorter boards. So I'm still looking for some ideas on those,

Still would like more input on my specs.

158 to 160

25 to 26 cm tip

70 +-Nose height and softer

19cm waist

23 cm tail, just slightly raised

sidecut of about 9

and a stiffer (like an Ultraprime) flex

[NateW]

I love the title on this thread.

That is all.

[dshack]

Doing a little thinking today about waist width and powder performance. Add a cm to the length of your board, and you've increased its surface area by somewhere between 23 and 28 square centimeters. Add one cm of width, and you've increased it 5x-9x as much.

no?

I hear the desire for a narrow waist; as a light rider, I find underhang robs me of a lot of power on freeride boards. That said, you'd need a pretty deep sidecut to maintain tip and tail width while keeping a skinny length.

I'm thinking something with a 21.5-23cm waist, 8m sidecut, and 30mm of taper (or a tail cutout) would be amazing. Basically a stiffer, skinnier fish-type deal.

[BadBrad]

bumpyride, I also ride a 156 UltraPrime, but for me it is my main carving board. I am about your size and also have a 26.5 boot, and my angles are 60/57, which puts my boots right at the edges of the board. With your 45 rear angle you must be getting some significant overhang. I have reduced my rear angle to the 51-54 range for riding in the bumps and crud, though, and it does make it easier to quickly slide the board around, so I understand what you're talking about there. Like you, I really like the UP's super light weight and "tossability". It's like driving a Miata versus driving a BMW. Both handle great, but you can confidently toss the Miata around, which is a lot of fun.

I also have an old 156 Alp, and that's my choice for the more off-piste riding, where I'm chasing my skiing buddies all over the mountain. It has a 20cm waist, which gives me angles of 57/54, which seems to be the sweet sport for me. It sounds like this type of board might be too soft for you, though, but for that type of riding I like a soft forgiving board.

My attempt to find the holy rail to provide decent powder performance, decent carving, and just all-around riding led me to buy a 164 Prior 4WD. However, like you, I find the 21.4 waist a little wider than I like, and the extra weight compared to the UP is noticeable. It also feels rather stiff and is harder to get sliding, so it actually doesn't work as well for me in the bumps and crud as the Alp. It does hold a better edge while carving than the Alp, though.

I was also going to recommend the Coiler AM 169 with 19cm waist. I haven't ridden one, but they have gotten rave reviews and it sounds like it would work well for you. If it seems too long for you, call up Bruce and discuss your preferences and riding style and can probably come up with your personal holy rail.

Another option might be a shorter Prior WCR, like the 163. You could even have one custom made with the metal top and the flex custom tuned for your preferences. One of the shorter Silberpfiels also sounds like it might work for you. Perhaps even a Madd 158 with the softer f1 flex.

[bumpyride]

bumpyride, I also ride a 156 UltraPrime, but for me it is my main carving board. I am about your size and also have a 26.5 boot, and my angles are 60/57, which puts my boots right at the edges of the board. With your 45 rear angle you must be getting some significant overhang. I have reduced my rear angle to the 51-54 range for riding in the bumps and crud, though, and it does make it easier to quickly slide the board around, so I understand what you're talking about there. Like you, I really like the UP's super light weight and "tossability". It's like driving a Miata versus driving a BMW. Both handle great, but you can confidently toss the Miata around, which is a lot of fun.

I also have an old 156 Alp, and that's my choice for the more off-piste riding, where I'm chasing my skiing buddies all over the mountain. It has a 20cm waist, which gives me angles of 57/54, which seems to be the sweet sport for me. It sounds like this type of board might be too soft for you, though, but for that type of riding I like a soft forgiving board.

My attempt to find the holy rail to provide decent powder performance, decent carving, and just all-around riding led me to buy a 164 Prior 4WD. However, like you, I find the 21.4 waist a little wider than I like, and the extra weight compared to the UP is noticeable. It also feels rather stiff and is harder to get sliding, so it actually doesn't work as well for me in the bumps and crud as the Alp. It does hold a better edge while carving than the Alp, though.

I was also going to recommend the Coiler AM 169 with 19cm waist. I haven't ridden one, but they have gotten rave reviews and it sounds like it would work well for you. If it seems too long for you, call up Bruce and discuss your preferences and riding style and can probably come up with your personal holy rail.

Another option might be a shorter Prior WCR, like the 163. You could even have one custom made with the metal top and the flex custom tuned for your preferences. One of the shorter Silberpfiels also sounds like it might work for you. Perhaps even a Madd 158 with the softer f1 flex.

Pretty interesting to find someone who rides like me, and often times I'm boarding with skiers and hardly ever with other boarders except my sons, as no other boarders want to be caught in the mogul fields. As I've said (probably too many times) my main interest is riding bumps, steeps, and off-piste, and that's where I've found the Ultra really shines. I guess what I'm really looking for is a thin waisted carver that is amenable to good powder days-not great ones. I'm in the land of heavier denser Cascade Concrete and it's not Sierra-light powder for the main part. The overhang with the 45 degree rear angle on the Ultra 156 doesn't really come into play because I never use it for carving. I'm keeping an upright torso, perpendicular to the fall line, and doing everthing from the waist down. If a guy tried to lay it down in the bumps, eventually you'll be looking at serious dental bills.

One board I've found that you might have an interest in if you can find one, is the 156 Coil. Stiffer than the Alp (which I also have) and softer with a better powder nose than the Ultra. If there's up to a foot of new, that's the board that gets pulled out. If it's much deeper then the 162 (164?) Coil gets pulled, or the O'Sin. The 168 Coil's waist got way too big, and then directional changes got slowed down, and I get bounced around too much.

My favorite Carving board on piste is the Ultra 162. Still quite a light swing weight, and holds way better than the 156, and hooks a turn, which makes for an especially quick directional change, and still does admirably in the bumps. The difference between the 156 and 162 is more than the length would indicate. I only carve when I'm in Duluth Minnesota when I'm back spending time with my wife. They groom everything there.

Giving a lot of thought to what I would have built, and will probably have that done. It may be weird, but I have all the bases covered except the "THE HOLY RAIL".

If any of you guys are out this way, invitations are open to anyone who wants to hit the bumps and steeps. We'll be in Whistler from Feb 24th to April 3 at Creekside, and tentatively planning a week in Salt Lake, maybe mid to late March.

[terekhov]

bumpyride:

I'm too hardboot mogul lover, and my new englightenment come with pogo overdose 162 with 63-60 stance and 8.5m radius. and let 8.5m don't fool anyone - it rails like noone in GS-like fall-line turns in crud. very FUN board to ride. never will look back in years to come ;) she have something to teach me, and I came to this shorty from donek axis 182.

[Bordy]

How in the world does 8.5 feel like a gs turn.