alexeyga Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 When liners are heated up, the whole bottom shrinks rather noticeably. I was wondering if they should be a hassle to stretch out when getting my feet in, or it's just me not getting them hot enough? In any case my first molding ended up being unridable... Have to redo it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 either not hot enough or too hot and you scorched them I'd say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexeyga Posted January 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 either not hot enough or too hot and you scorched them I'd say Nice... So it won't get any worse at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Did you follow the directions on http://www.yyzcanuck.com/E_tech_cooking.htm ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexeyga Posted January 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Did you follow the directions on http://www.yyzcanuck.com/E_tech_cooking.htm ? By the letter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 They shrink after you mold them. And they shrink also when they get cold - ie trunk of a car outside in winter. I've done 2 pair now, and noticed same changes... sole length shrinks and overall height is lost: 1-2 cm height on average. But they then fit the shell interior better, and hopefully your foot contours as well. I reason the foam contains gas which is driven off when heated. That's why they swell up when you bake them. As they cool, they contract. If you cool them below room temp ( ie winter temps) the gas in each cell contracts, making them feel tight. from www.intuitionsports.com: "The ULTRALON thermo-forming closed cell foam is designed to be more resistant to heat-related shrinkage and pressure related "packing out" than any other foam in the world. Using this foam in all of our products provides the highest durability and product endurance to our customers." It may be better than other types of foam at resisting heat-related shrinkage, but it's not unaffected by it. And this is why you can only mold them ~6 times. Each time they lose a little gas, and get denser (harder). And the same resistance to packing out, makes them hard to stretch back out when shrunken. If you cook them too hot, they might be ruined. I think the 260 degrees recommended by the yyzcanuck instructions is too much - and increases the amount of shrinkage. My last pair were done professionally with heat tubes (when I spoke directly with Intuition - they unequivocally recommended heat tubes over ovens) and I noticed much less height shrinkage and more sole shrinkage. The tubes get the foot part hottest, and relatively spare the upper cuff. The oven-bake method gets 'em hot all over. But they do stretch a little and pack out when you ride them - it may not be comfortable to ride until they do, but they won't ever be comfortable unless you do ride in them. Damned if you do, and... I did a second mold using the oven on my last pair, but at reduced temp - 220 degrees for 10 minutes. I did not notice any further shrinkage - in fact they felt nicely looser and better-fitting. But I won't really know until I ride again. Now - you might try a shoe-stretcher at a light tension for a couple days at warm room temps to give back a little sole length. Pack a little tissue paper in the toe and heel pockets to spread out the pressure, and avoid packing out the toe or heel areas. Also try wearing the boots at home for a few hours, on different days to get the liners warmed up to body temp, and stretching out where you need more space. Try these things before you go to the next molding, because each bake kind of makes the shrinkage worse. If I do it again for a 3rd pair I would: plan on 2 oven bake sessions, but at lower temps. Once at 220 degrees, wear at home a day, ride a day, bake a second time at 220 degrees. My $.02 JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 If you cook them too hot, they might be ruined.I think the 260 degrees recommended by the yyzcanuck instructions is too much - and increases the amount of shrinkage. If I do it again for a 3rd pair I would: plan on 2 oven bake sessions, but at lower temps. Once at 220 degrees, wear at home a day, ride a day, bake a second time at 220 degrees. Joe, I won't contradict what you've experienced (as I've read the other thread regarding this problem and brought it to the attention of INTUITION). I can tell you that 260degF is not too hot though. We regularly use that temperature (verified by a separate pyrometer). Temperature and time are important inversely proportinate factors in molding the liners. The higher the temperature, the shorter the cook time. If you're using 260degF, be certain to monitor the liner by observation and touch. Our instructions seem to work for us but I'll admit they shouldn't be considered the 'rule'. As quoted from our instructions... "Observe the liner while it cooks. You will see it begin to swell quite noticeably. Normally this begins after 4-6 minutes. Continue to cook for a couple of minutes after you see the liner swell. Usually 8-10 minutes is enough, although we’ve left them as long as 15 minutes without a problem. You'll know the liner is ready when it feels somewhat like a bag of firm gelatin. I'd be interested in seeing what liners you and Alexyga are having problems with. I have not molded this years liner (grey/silver outer). Can you guys post pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexeyga Posted January 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Dave, I've sent you an e-mail about standard liners... My Intuitions are black/golden-yellow outside and lime-green on the inside.. Just got them with a pair of boots... I'm somewhat pissed off, i only changed my boots because standard liners were rather cold and were getting wet after first couple of descents... but they were comfy! Intuitions are way wormer, but as far as comfort goes... duh... Another thing i've noted, SB 225's felt somewhat stiffer with these intuitions than Suzukas with standard ones... ??? After so much talking about 225 = Lemans... I'm somewhat confused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Hey Dave, thanks for jumping in I did not mean my comments to be any kind of a slam on YYZCANUCK - far from it. If it weren't for your info, lots of us would be doing it by trial-and-error, mostly error. And Rob & Crystal likewise have been very helpful, nothing but good stuff to say about them. Mine are plain black exterior, plain black liner. I did mold a slightly shorter grey pair, before this pair. Same results. Overall good molds, but not comfortable. Warm. Heat temps & times were tightly monitored. So despite my best efforts I am still trying to get 'em to an acceptable comfort. I am open to ANY suggestions on that. My past boots have had either fuzzy or velour insides of the liners, over foam, very squishy and cozy on your feet. I was surprised by the 'hardness' (for lack of a better descriptive) of the inside of the liners. I have narrow feet & ankles, and I don't have any room for thicker socks, to up the cushioning. I also don't know how bigger guys manage to get their feet in the liners. My size 10 liners barely fit in the 27.5 shell, even with low-volume feet. I'll post a shot of the liners shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Any advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I did not mean my comments to be any kind of a slam on YYZCANUCK Joe, I didn't take it that way, just wanted to state for the record that we use that temperature and thus far haven't had a problem with it. As for your problem... I'm not sure what to tell you. Perhaps they're being heated for too long? My numbers are suggestions. I don't actually set a time, I just keep watching, then feeling the liner to figure out when to pull it out of the heat. For the cuff height being different, I've only seen that when one has been pulled too much. I give the liner a gentle tug before tightening the buckles and I don't tighten the buckles very tight. Sometimes when the buckles are cinched down too much, the liner is pushed upward. For the short sole, I've never seen that! That's very strange. Does it shorten while your foot is in the boot cooling the liner or post cooling when your foot is out? Something that does come to mind... I've never molded an INTUITION without an orthotic/footbed on the person's foot. Maybe I've just been lucky and not witnessed this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 My Intuitions are black/golden-yellow outside and lime-green on the inside.. Sounds ugly!! Good thing they're INSIDE the boot and not outside!! Another thing i've noted, SB 225's felt somewhat stiffer with these intuitions than Suzukas with standard ones... This is true. The INTUITION and DeeLuxe heat moldable liners tend to add noticable resistance to the forward flex of the boot. Let me clarify... this pertains only to the 'wrap' tongue style liner. After so much talking about 225 = Lemans... I'm somewhat confused... The only thing about those two boots (SB225 and LeMans) that is the same is the mold they're made from. Both are the original symetric flex shell design. Plastic material and liner construction will both contribute to the boots feeling different from one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Perhaps they're being heated for too long?. Not likely. Liners were both heated on Heat tube system at the same time, both came off at the same time. Seemed to mold fine. Sat for ~30 min with feet in liners in boots. Drove home 30 min, left liners/boots in cool room (60 deg) and I don't tighten the buckles very tight.. The buckles were pretty tight, because there just wasn't any extra room. But they were the same tightness on both boots. Plastic material and liner construction. will both contribute to the boots feeling different from one another.. I agree that the Intuitions stiffen up the boot - I was frustrated with trying to 'fix' the Intuitions so I bought some UPZ liners. But I'm going to re-post the UPZ in the classsifieds b/c they allowed too much forward flex - my SB224's shells are pretty soft plastic - the liner contributes a LOT to the overall boot flex and thus performance. I've only seen that when one has been pulled too much.. I did not pull up on either one. Maybe should have.I did not use any orthotic or footbed. Crystal had said it was not really necessary, b/c the liner will form to your arch. And there wasn't room for it anyway. I don't think you can see it in the photo, the left also developed a crease on the top of the liner, although I can't feel it on the inside. I put the liner in the boot with the help of the pro, and it was all good when we started. I noticed the crease the following morning. Anyway Dave I truly appreciate your time & thought so far on this. I'm just at a loss for how to make it better. I would love to hear anything you learn from Intuition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Not likely. Liners were both heated on Heat tube system at the same time, both came off at the same time. Seemed to mold fine. I think your system of heating may be the problem. Intuition liners need to be heated in an oven, not on a tube, otherwise the liner doesn' heat up evenly. I suggest first going to a shop that knows how to actually mold the liners (or do it yourself!) and, second, remolding the liners using a proper oven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 For the cuff height being different, I've only seen that when one has been pulled too much. I give the liner a gentle tug before tightening the buckles and I don't tighten the buckles very tight. Sometimes when the buckles are cinched down too much, the liner is pushed upward. Is it possible to fix the cuff height issue by re-molding the liners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I think your system of heating may be the problem. Intuition liners need to be heated in an oven, not on a tube, otherwise the liner doesn' heat up evenly. I suggest first going to a shop that knows how to actually mold the liners (or do it yourself!) and, second, remolding the liners using a proper oven. All of your suggestions - I did, in that order. I went to an Intuition dealer. Process was done using Intuition-logo-ed gear. BTW if you talk to Intuition they will tell you that that they recommend heat tubes not ovens. The system of heating does not account for the discrepancy b/t the 2 liners. Hey Alexeyga - sorry for the hijack! I hope you're gaining something from the posts too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Is it possible to fix the cuff height issue by re-molding the liners? It might be - but the height is not as big a deal as the sole shrinkage. I took the silver spoilers off the bootbacks, so height is ok. The lower foot portion of the liner doesn't really fit due to loss of length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexeyga Posted January 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Hey Alexeyga - sorry for the hijack! I hope you're gaining something from the posts too. Nah.. I don't mind, just that the more I read, more I feel screwed up having changed not such a bad boots, with not such a bad (compared to Intuitions) standard liners, for a pair of older boots with newer Intuitions... I didn't want to spend a fortune on new liners to begin with.. But i'm afraid I'll pay the double at the end... Gonna try remolding and stretching them tonight... not sure of the outcome, but I'll do everything to get them right.. or kill them completely... P.S. anybody knows a decent bootfiter in Montreal area? Sharks? I've only done footbeds with them and I know for sure they prefer selling standard liners... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derf Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 bartron will tell you, Sharks are NOT good bootfitters. I heard André Bouchard in Québec was good, but it's kind of far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 To add my 2 cents. Dave at yyzcanuck helped me mold my Inuitions the first time and they turned out perfect. Then, I handed my boots down to my kid. Molded the boots in the oven and seemed to work out great. A week later, he put them on and they shrunk at least 1cm. He couldn't ride in them. Temperature had nothing to with it since they were stored in the house, then transferred to the car (not the trunk, in the passenger compartment) and brought into the lodge. Both times, they were molded exactly the same way, in the oven. I guess we'll just have to try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Temperature had nothing to with it since they were stored in the house, then transferred to the car (not the trunk, in the passenger compartment) and brought into the lodge. And the plot thickens!!! Hmmm... this is starting to bug me. What the heck is going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 OMG skategoat you have no idea how much better that makes me feel. I was really thinking...wtf did I do wrong? As Alexeyga, I had followed the instructions "to the letter" Just so frustrated............. Now I'm looking at ski boot liners with tongues as possible alternatives... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Now I'm looking at ski boot liners with tongues as possible alternatives... Why not go the DeeLuxe Speed Liner route? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Not in stock in a 28. Concerned that a 27 will be too small. I really cannot ride a 27 - I had surgery of my foot & leg - there is a permanent ~ 2 inch screw thru my R big toe fusing the distal joint. No pressure to tip of big toe, b/c big toe cannot curl or bend even a fraction. (tiny little violin plays for me in background) :rolleyes: This is why I originally went to Intuitions - they have a rep for solving anatomic peculiarities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pushee Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Is it at all possible that those liners were always a different size? What if one of them was mislabled. Do you clearly remember whether they looked the same before you had them molded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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