CASI courses

[Neil Gendzwill]

I guess this is mostly for Rob, but anyone chime in.

If I wanted to take a level 1 course and teach at my local hill for the halibut, can I do it in hard boots?

[Rob Stevens]

If you lowered your angles to come a bit closer to what the average beginner is riding, it would help the student with visualization.

That being said, there is no rule that says you have to take the Level 1 in softboots. I'd just do it on your shortest, softest board, using the lowest angles you can manage.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hmm. That would be an old Asym Air 164, with about 35 f/ 30 r. Close enough?

[slinkygnu]

Depends what the preferred stance angles are at CASI, due to the difference in body positioniing with steeper stance angles.

I can do it +15 front 0 back without a detrimental effect on body management issues. Riding +30f or above isn't really on as when you're demo'ing its not really showing the pupils.

Saying that I tend to set boards up +15f -15r for beginners and teach duck stanced.

[carvedog]

Hmm. That would be an old Asym Air 164, with about 35 f/ 30 r. Close enough?

Dont know about CASI but I teach regularly at the stance angles you wrote up there on a Burton Canyon 173 and I am able to show the alignments just fine. I do keep my boots a little looser so I can work the "slop" and show pelvis completely in line with the board (imagine a line through the hips and sticking out like when you raise your arms up to the side). Also important to show ankle flexion. Fire is probably not the best boot for that but I may it work.

I even did switch bumps on a Mistral 167 asym as part of the level 3 AASI. Not sure I would do that again but the bumps were so gnarly that even the examiners crashed trying to demo so they had to give us a little.

good luck

[BlueB]

That being said, there is no rule that says you have to take the Level 1 in softboots. I'd just do it on your shortest, softest board, using the lowest angles you can manage.

When I asked the same question to the BC CASI office, they kind of encouraged me to do it on hard boots... I still have my doubts. Would I be looked "down at" by the examiner?

Rob, I know it is not a politically correct question, but it would help to know upfront...

I can do about 30/20 on hard boots, but then, these are the angles I liked on soft boots even before I switched to plates.

Boris

[Rob Stevens]

Boris;

Did you mean to say that they encouraged you to do the Level 1 in soft boots?

Any regional office of CASI would likely tell you that. In my experience, less than 1% of beginners will take a lesson in a hard setup. As an instructor, as mentioned above, you will give advantage to your students by being aligned the same way they are.

Your angles aside, though, the CASI "training cycle" points out that only 20% of a students potential learning takes place during your verbal explanation and physical demonstration. The rest happens when THEY TRY, get feedback and TRY AGAIN (and again). I have said many times on course that I'd rather have a teacher on a Skwall who helped hold the student up during the first few attempts at tougher exercises, than one on soft boots who stood there with his thumb up his ass while the client struggled to get up off the ground.

Ideally, you would do both: Ride in the equipment your student was using AND help them physically through "barrier" parts of the progression, like sideslipping and the first few turns (especially heel to toe).

At the end of the day, you can take the course at whatever angles you want. All we say is that you must be aligned with your stance on the board. Beyond that, we won't TELL you what to do. You said you were "kind of encouraged" to do it in softs?

That sounds about right.

Neil;

I would knock that back foot angle down a bit... 20...15? Unless this is very uncomfortable for you. This is low (no) performance stuff, so if you don't like riding angles that slack normally because, let's say, you can't edge properly, that's good... They can't edge properly either. Detune, Brother.

Carvedog;

Crashing evaluators... Weak. Around the turn of the century, CASI had itself wrapped up in some expectations that were unrealistic, to say the least. On the top level course of the day, candidates were expected to do black fall line moguls and black (but groomed) dynamic carved turns (you'd call them cross-through). No worries there, unless the snow was ****, and then everyone, candidates AND course conductors, were all over the shop. We have since made the high standard more humane: Blue groomers for alpine that the candidate must DESTROY WITH STYLE. No more barely hanging on to the black stuff. For freeride, we have less emphasis on finding a fall-line mogul run. Now, it is a mixture of some moguls, chopped up steeps, some smooth steeps and airs of the kick and drop type.

Ultimately, the real determining factor for terrain, when we go to the riding session, will be conditions at the time of the test. If it's brutal, we tone it down. If it's pow, or hero grooms, we ramp the expectations up.

The goal was to make it real. Real rail to rail carving, with style and real freeriding in varied terrain. These changes to the standard were not seen as making things "easier", we just wanted to show "instructor" type riding as more style than speed.

[Neil Gendzwill]

On the top level course of the day, candidates were expected to do black fall line moguls and black (but groomed) dynamic carved turns (you'd call them cross-through).

Interesting. Using examples from Louise: black moguls like Ptarmigan with good snow? Or black moguls like Comedy Bowl on a huge day? Black groomed like Ladies DH? Or like the steep section on Men's DH?

[Rob Stevens]

We just went too steep for awhile. Now, we've backed it off.

At Sunshine, we'd do Divide for alpine and Standish face from the snow cliffs, through the bowl, down the face, over Jerrys, off Jerrys jump down into the Dell Valley for freeride.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well if you can't carve Divide you've got no business instructing, I think... I don't ride Standish a lot so I'm not sure the route you're talking about. But some of the bump sections can get reasonably tough.

[BlueB]

Rob, thanks for ellaborating. It is always most helpfull having your input.

No, actually my understanding was that I was encouraged to do it on the HARD boots. Since I heard "you can ride what ever feels best for you" and "sometimes our examiner would be on the hard boots" and I did not hear "we recommend that you do it on soft boots", it sounded ok to do the hard boots. Now it sounds more like my wishfull thinking. You also indirectly ansvered my 2nd question.

As far as physical part of teaching is concerned, I'm quite accustomed to that - as a kids ski instructor I do it all the times.

My long term plan is start a hard boot program at Cypress, thus hard boots would be my primary tool and intermediate snowboarders my clients (although in the first year I'm sure I would have to fill gaps with soft boot lessons.

My understanding is that one can not go straight for the CASI carving module, which would make the most sense for my goal?

Then, unless the "duck" is prescribed as CASI standard for begginers (and you told us not, in anotherr tread), I would always encourage my student to start on a mild forward stance, which I feel is the natural possition. That means teaching on hard boots with mild angles on a freeride board shouldn't be an issue? Actually, it is in the interest of Alpine that clients see an instructor riding hard boots, thus creating interest in that branch of snowboarding, instead of just producing another batch of free-stylers.

Boris

[Rob Stevens]

Neil;

The steepness of the pitch is not the point. To say that if you can't carve Divide, you shouldn't be instructing is a bit "Bordy-esque" for you!

It seems that a really good plate rider can "show off" more on a blue pitch and that even the best riders here would have a tough time with refrozen 9am South Divide.

Turn shape is a big part of it too. If I'm not concerned with speed control, I'll rail down Divide at 90, just standing there, doing nothing. If speed control and turn shape is part of the mix, it gets much harder. For instructing purposes, our top speed is pretty chopped and the body moves that need to be performed to keep it down are complex and varied, as you know.

To get this turn, we have had to start educating people on the type of board to train and take the course with. Smaller sidecuts and shorter lengths lend themselves to the "instructor" turn better than the race GS boards. For best results, we would have candidates practice on slalom and freecarve rides. We have had a couple of riders do great on bigger boards, but they were hardbooters first and foremost, where the majority of our candidates are softbooters first.

Once again, we need to ride together, Brother. We'd have some fun.

Boris;

Greg Daniells (and all the CASI regional managers, for that matter) either have a healthy respect for plates, or rip on them (David Gagnon from Quebec, for example). To have one of them encourage you to do your 1 on plates is great. Especially considering what you said about the people you want to teach and that you want to promote that side of the sport.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The steepness of the pitch is not the point. To say that if you can't carve Divide, you shouldn't be instructing is a bit "Bordy-esque" for you!

I don't think so. I mean, refrozen corn is a whole nother ball of wax. Pitch doesn't matter there, I'll suck on Strawberry in those conditions. But for normal winter conditions on say upper Divide, I think all of your instructors had better be able to carve in control. In fact, you write:

Turn shape is a big part of it too.

Which implies to me an even tougher standard - I'll bet you expect your top guys to show any turn shape you ask for on that pitch, not just ride it the way they like to.

Once again, we need to ride together, Brother. We'd have some fun.

I'll be around Feb 12-15 inclusive, staying in Canmore. If you're in town and have the time, I'd love to make some turns with you. Then you can show this keyboard warrior what's what :)

[BlueB]

Boris;

Greg Daniells (and all the CASI regional managers, for that matter) either have a healthy respect for plates, or rip on them (David Gagnon from Quebec, for example).

Hmmm, I never got to speek to Greg (I did ask for him first), my conversation was with one of the ladies in the office...

[Fleaman]

Back in 1995 in northern Ontario, we had I took my level 1 on Plates. I started on a gs deck and switched to a freecarve for my test.

My level one course was great. we had 3 or riders at our mountain that were level one or higher on Plates exclusively. I had no problem whatsoever except showing the body rotation from toeside to heelside. with the exagerated angles, it was difficult to pull off smoothly and it reflected in my results. Other than that, It was no problem. I am trying to remember If I used softboots to teach newcommers or my alpine rig. We did however have alpine setups in the rental building available to the public.

Speaking of Sunshine.

Last year, I was staying at the Sunshine lodge and watched the winchcat groom one of the mogul runs that drop into the meadow off the divide runs. I was drooling thinking about ripping it up the next day. After I went to bed, it snowed 6 inches. I was beside myself. I was actually mad to see powder on the hill. I wept inside but still smiled on the outside.

[BlueB]

All 3 hardbooting candidates (all BOL members), Dave, Adrian and myself, passed the Level 1.

Nice relaxed athmsphere, great friendship, knowledgable evaluators, perfect weather...

Gear: no one on a full race board, 2 4x4s and a bx board. Boots ranging from very flexy to very stiff (my ski Nordicas). Angles from high 30s to low 50s. I would suggest even softer stuff and mildest angles. Torsional flexibility of board comes handy. 4x4 NOT flexy enough for my 170 lb.

Technique: You need to unlearn carving for the period of course, and detune the performance. Balanced body position is super important, and one needs to ride with all body joints aligned. Actually I dare to say that a bit of negative rotation is required to emphasize that you are not facing the nose. Rear hand needs to stay behind, so you CAN NOT see it. Nice clean riding is required and ability to demonstrate all sorts of movements, and exagerate everything. Upright torso is a must.

Teaching: They'll teach you how to teach. Listen, watch and duplicate, you'll be ok. Speak up loud - outdoor voice as the say. Safety first. This part is easier if you had experience teaching something before, or dealt with people a lot.

Troubles: (I just speak for myself now) A lot of twist and stress on rear knee from unnatural position. Difficulty initiating toe side turn without a tuch of inclination (too high angles - my mistake, I had room for flatter). Keeping it down - high performance riding is counter productive for this.

Rob, thanks for good input!

CASI, thanks for good course.

Dave, Adrian, thanks for moral support, and well done.