A few Style Qs

[No.2]

Hello fellow carvers. Have'n an awesome season down under in NZ. Just got back from a solid 5 day session and have a few Q's.

I'm Riding a 168 (the terrain here is pretty tight) F2 Silberphile 05 with Catek Stepins and modified 325s with Booster straps. I weigh about 78kg.

-My angles have been 61F 57R but I keep dragging my back knee in the snow and feeling like my knees were very wide on my toe side. So I wound it in to 61R and felt better. Just wondering if this is a technique thing as well and / or it is is worth going pigeon toed as some have suggested. As I'm still a bit scared to angulate fully on my toe side for fear of loosing my knee cap.

-I've modeled my stance on CMCs set up. Heeps of heel lift at the rear. Flat on the front and quite a wide stance width. The rear boot locked on 1 or 2 and the front boot in walk mode with the knob turned anticlockwise to restrict movement back but allow flexing forward. I found that with the Front boot like that I was slow on to my toe sides and scared to flex to far forward as I would keep endoing. So I locked my front boot at the rear boots setting +1 and this helped HEEPS. But my question is should I have moved my stance back on the board instead to allow more mobility on the board and just been quicker to feed the board through the turn? Kinda wondering if I might be Riding too much in the back seat.

-Lastly any body done the November race training camp in Italy with Steve (The assistant coach to team Canada) and Chris. Or have any thoughts on it.

Thoughts guys?

Thanks in advance.

BTW anyone coming to NZ this season?

[tex1230]

From what I've seen recently most people have moved away from the pigeon toed stance. That being said your angles are right at the limit of what we used to use - maxed out at 5 degrees of pigeon toe, but alot of people were getting knee pain at that level and backed off to around 3 degrees.

the extreme heel lift is most likely causing your rear knee to stick out on toe sides. crank it down a bit and try adding 2-3 degrees of toe lift on the front foot.

play with your stance a bit - it can take a while to figure out what your best position is...

FWIW I'm running 3 degrees offset (normal, not pigeon toed), 3 degree cant and 3 degree lift on each foot...I guess I just like 3 degrees...but that's what works for me after many changes in 25+ years of riding.

Keep experimenting and have fun.

-tex

[Jack M]

The best stance advice is to experiment. Personally I think lots of heel lift and a flat front foot is a recipe for front quad burn-out, followed by unbalanced muscle development. But some people enjoy this setup. Try a stance with equal toe lift and heel lift, or at least <i>some</i> toe lift, and try to ride more centered and upright, without bending all the way forward at the waist (see below). I like bindings mounted centered on the sidecut. I think more than an inch of setback is ill-advised for anyone.

[Mike T]

Definitely experiment as Jack says.

I for one found moving from a toe lifted front foot stance to a flat front foot stance very liberating. I was able to move around on the board better, fix problems in my heelside technqiue and turn just as hard toeside with less effort. So please don't dismiss it as a possibility too quickly.

If your boots are locked in at low numbers then your knees are pointing into the snow on your toeside turns even more than they would normally... another way to solve that might be to try locking in at 3/2 or 4/3. It feels different but give it a day, it might feel better after a number of runs. I used to do the same thing, locked in at 2/1 and my legs would burn out fast. I now use a BTS system with the neutral positions at approximately the equivalent of 3.5/3 (yes I'm such a nerd...) and its working great.

Btu yeah, keep experimenting!

[Derf]

I also second Jack about experimenting and the front foot. I rode front flat and lift rear for a while, front quad was burning. Then I switched to both flat, ait was much better. I got some Cateks last year, so I tried front toe lift and rear heel lift, and I must say this is the best for me.

[No.2]

Wow thanks. You guys are awesome!

With my boots locked up in this stance all I seem to be able to do is highly angluated carves. And when I'm fully pushing through them on steeps useing a cross under technique I'm knackered after about 12 turns. Strangly enough it is my back leg that burns. Maybe thats just what you get when trying to open up a softish 168?

If I want to do any sort of heal side traverse or skiddies I have to flick the front boot into walk other wise my front quad dies a painfull and rather rapid death.

So it seems the common theme is keep playing with it. Definatly locked front boot and not the walk mode, button around thing. Try a bit of toe lift, let my body get a bit more neutral and and watch the stance set back. And from Mike T see how my heel sides go with that set up. I know that the back knee down thing certianly helped me unblock my heel sides to the point where I am quite a bit more comfy on heel than toe. I'll see how it goes.

Haven't realy looked at cant. I've been running 0 cant and just set up the stance width to suit my instep, hip width, stance angle combo. Am I on the right track here?

I'm guessing a bit of cant, less heel lift and more toe lift (A la Bomber bindings) could solve my binding offset (offset from the boards longdiudinal axis) issue too. Or should I just use cant on longer boards that need a wider stance width?

Also just wanted to say that Jack every time I see you on that early head cam video I am inspired. Sooo damn smooth. Is there any more where that came from?

Thanks again guys.

[Jack M]

Yeah, something is definitely wrong then. When your stance setup is working for you, (and you are in reasonably good shape), you should be able to carve and ride around all day in relative comfort and freedom of motion.

Here's an article on canting that might give you some ideas:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/canting.cfm

Glad you liked that vid. (gosh, where is it now?) There would be more of that if Bob would get off his GSXR-spoiled butt and finish up the SES/ECES footage! :p

[kipstar]

Hey Jack

Great article, just re-read it, really worthwhile; I might keep the toe lifts a bit longer and persavere; however at the moment I have gone from none to some.... I have the boot cuffs fairly straight and may need to angle them a bit more, raichle indys which i tapped out so they could go even straighter again.

This was as an adjustment when I finally switched away from ski boots to snowboard boots (ski boots tend to be less forward angled; sorry not sure how to explain this).

My feeling is that going into some heel side turns at very low speed on a longer board, that the board carves up under me, my legs end up a bit straight, and I have problems getting across into the next turn, and instead turn up until I stop or have to skid out. We are talking beginner slope, low speed; seems to be ok on the slightly faster runs but I didn't have this problem before I had the toe lift.

Should I increase the forward lean setting of the boot to compensate or what?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

-My angles have been 61F 57R but I keep dragging my back knee in the snow and feeling like my knees were very wide on my toe side.

QUOTE]

Sounds like they are VERY WIDE? Question. Are you aware of "opening your legs" example moving your knees away from each other rather than "Closing your legs" as in bringing your bent knees closer to the center line of the board fore/aft? I have noted that allot of the "Race Style" riders with a more "open stance" and lower angles often also drive the knees outward. With your steep angles (which I prefer) it is hard to picture a person putting their knee in the snow unless they are very "bow legged" in their stance. That probably sounds more derogatory than is entended, however it serves to help in visualizing your position. Disclaimer:Caution all my suggestions may be "Old School" and not to be followed unless you still like asyms and dayglow. :lol:

As always , a photo is good a video is much better. Often what is described and what is evident on videos are dissimilar. If you can post a photo of anyone in a similar position it can help a great deal. "Toe-Side" gallery just for you!

Me: Like Matt. After years of trying every combo under the sun. 3 front , 3 back both pointed to the middle , centered on sidecut makes a good comfortable neutral stance. I tend to like stiffer boots that are locked in and standing tall. The first time I tried BTS , I didn't like it either. It was too much travel, nothing firm to push against to load the board. It is largely a matter of taste/style. The set up you describe sounds a little bit like the one guys that ride really , really low prefer. It is ideal for the steeps, absorption or "Body Sliding" , however it makes it pretty hard to just stand up and relax in a normal posture. Something I often see new riders do and it totally wears them out. They often ask , "Damn, how do you ride hard like that all day long??) Probably because I can "Stand up between charges" I am not crouched the entire run.

Love NZ

One of the guys from So Cal is headed your way next week to do some heli. Save some snow for him would you? What is your home town? Good on ya!

Bryan

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

The best stance advice is to experiment.

Jack, where is your toe-side shot?? Yes, I love that shot to. Very nice!

Dude, stiffer board next year?? Please, before you explode it!!

Like watching a little kid playing with a balloon just before it pops. BANG

Jack's next article. How to know when your board has lost it's camber. ;)

Or How to make your 17SCR turn as if it was 12.5SCR

[Jack M]

Jack, where is your toe-side shot??

or there's this one.

Dude, stiffer board next year?? Please, before you explode it!!

heh, That shot is from 2004, I have a few new boards. That was a Donek 186 (15m). Spectacular board. I'm "making the rounds" so to speak - Madd, Prior, and a Coiler on the way. Can't wait till I can justify putting one of each in the quiver.

[Jack M]

Sounds like they are VERY WIDE? Question. Are you aware of "opening your legs" example moving your knees away from each other rather than "Closing your legs" as in bringing your bent knees closer to the center line of the board fore/aft? I have noted that allot of the "Race Style" riders with a more "open stance" and lower angles often also drive the knees outward. With your steep angles (which I prefer) it is hard to picture a person putting their knee in the snow unless they are very "bow legged" in their stance. That probably sounds more derogatory than is entended, however it serves to help in visualizing your position. Disclaimer:Caution all my suggestions may be "Old School" and not to be followed unless you still like asyms and dayglow. :lol:

Article about this here: http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm

[No.2]

Hey guys just got back from another epic two days. I even had to take the little shovel off piest into some 2 ft pow (thats as good as it gets in the North island) Just awesome and hero groomers every where thanks to a car crash on the road just behind us. About 40 people and staff on the whole mountain!

I had a few quick hacks at my stance. More toe lift, less heel lift. Found it hard to get my boots matching. Hips were either over or under rotated thanks to the 325s "infinite" lean adjustment. This helped heaps with the kneeing out issue and my knees now felt a bit knocked. Put the rear back to 57 and that helped both the knock and the hips issue. Still got lots to fine tune (londitudinal offset, height and the lifts to match even boot leans) But life is defiantly easier now. I don't have to crouch like a maniac any more.

I am wiping out on heel sides again but thats just when I'm not fast enough on to the back foot. With the old stance I could just whack it around and angluate and the upper body would already be there. With this stance I need to make an effort to get things in place other wise I block the turn and am on me arse. Toe side now feels much more inspiring. I'm sure there is a middle ground. Or maybe just more muscle memory to develop. I might try a wider stance with some cant as suggested by that link you posted Jack. Thanks for that.

The point that Bryan raised about driving me knees out wards as inspired by the Separate Zee Knees article is valid. I think I may have been taking it too far. I had them so far apart that I could positively throw my self out of a turn by loading the board with a quick knee knock. By the way Bryan I'm based in Auckland. And riding on Mt Ruapehu. Whakapapa is the Hardbooters side and believe it or not there are more of us now than ever. I met a guy that rides sticks and also an all mountain Coiler! I couldn't believe my eyes. I never thought I would see one of those here. Nice website BTW

He has a head cam. And to day was following me down a slope that was unfamiliar to me and steep and narrow enough for me to get a bit messy... good way so show up style issues I guess. But none of them turned out. Gutted. He thinks it was because the remote cam was getting too cold. He even put a glove warmer on it. But it got cold every time he disconnected it to save battery. Any tips for getting head cams working?

All in all guys this has been very help full advice so thanks again.

Time for bed, now where did I put that arnica.

Cheers

Jason

[Rob Stevens]

Riding with Steve and Christian, huh?

Lots of combined knowledge there... Chris is one of the best freeriders I know and a real noboard fanatic, like myself. Steve just about single-handedly has kept competition alive in the maritimes of Canuckistan.

I'll keep it simple on your questions...

1. I started wearing a MTB DH knee / shin pad on my back knee instead of increasing my stance angle to avoid snow contact. The flatter you can get your back foot (without drag), the more you can edge the board without having to move your hip to the inside so much. This should keep you over top of your s#!t without losing your ability to pour on the edge angle. I run the knee / shin front and rear for freeriding as I've had a few close calls in pow with rocks and stumps just under the snow surface. They fit right to the boot top and are unnoticeable after you get your pants on and sure do make you feel more secure.

2. Don't set your stance back. Keep it centered as the others suggest. When I rode hardboots regularly, I used to fold the nose all the time as most race boards were shorter and softer than they are now. If you can get a stiffer / longer (or both) board, you may be able to drive it instead of being a passenger. I wouldn't go too crazy and wind up with a big GS board, though, or it will feel too wierd. You shouldn't be afraid to move forward and inside to start a toe turn. If you are because you buckle the board, don't compliment its inefficiencies by changing your style... you could be out-riding it. Can you borrow another board to try?

3. If you're still wiping out on your heels, slow things down a bit and get your timing together. If you get that down-unweighting (cross-through) thing happening when you're just a bit out of position, your board will be too far away, too quickly to catch up to. Once again, slow the movements down, not the speed so much, just your timing... you still want the speed so you can get some pop when you change edges.

I have this little card that says I'm an instructor, but I still don't know you and have never seen you ride, so this could be all bulls#!t. You should post a video clip so we can all tear you to pieces. That would be fun.

[Jack M]

Jason, I wonder if it would be beneficial for you to step back to basics and try a learning drill we call The Norm....?

http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/feel_the_carve.cfm

[No.2]

Hey Rob. The Canuck Connection eh! Canadians are fast becoming my favorite species. (Sh!t I wonder if that is one of those things you just don't say in an American Forum.. Sorry ;) I haven't how ever hooked up with Christian and Steve. Are they over here!? Canucks I have met here are Mel and Anne-Marie from Toronto. Both stick racers and Mels a Rugby player, Wrestler, some times hard booter, theres a Gord Manuel connection there as well. Jackson, Groomer extraordinair "Dude man, in Canada we just groom from tree to tree. Here I just don't know where to stop" I've never seen grooming this good on our hill before. And 'Becca a pint sized plate head with an enormous board. She's done the November race camp with Steve and Chris twice and recommended it to me. I'm kind of tempted but I'm not sure if I'll enjoy race styles as much as I do freecarveing. But then any thing is good for your riding right? Especially hanging out with those two.

Couple of clarifying Q's Rob.

The flatter you can get your back foot (without drag), the more you can edge the board without having to move your hip to the inside so much.

Toe side or heel side?

Don't set your stance back. Keep it centered as the others suggest.

Got my stance centered along the board. I'm guessing I might be using the wrong terminology when I say longitudinal offset. I mean offset across that axis not along it. ie. front foot shoved toe side, rear foot -> heel side to help accommodate the skew from a flat front, heel lift rear binding set up. I also raised the rear binding and lowered the front to help with this as well.

Point 3 is just gold. Thank you for that. Spot on.

I am astounded at how helpful typing about snowboarding has been for me every time I have posted here. Every time an epiphany. You guys seem to have a sixth sense.

And yes fair call Jack, I do tend to get ahead of my self at times. I wouldn't, however, have tried to teach my self to snow board online with a old asym in a country where it is / was super uncool if I wasn't a free spirit that liked to push the envelope. Having said that norms, eyes closed and focus stuff are usually all I do for the first run. Which takes a lot of self control for me especially when the conditions are perfect.

I'm really keen to post a clip. If this head cam doesn't work I'll sort something out the next time I'm down.

Cheers all.

Jas.

[Rob Stevens]

When I say "flat", I'm thinking of rotating the binding until the toe and heel of the boot are overhanging the edge by no more than 1 cm on both sides.

You can use the offset slotting on your discs to get this even, toe and heel.

Some riders like to have the toe and heel lined up perfectly with the sidewall, when viewed from above and some even have their boots inside the sidewall a bit. I don't go for the last one as I think running angles any higher than needed "handcuffs" you a bit. Even if you have a little bit of overhang, you'd probably never notice, unless you're at 90 degrees of edge angle. This doesn't happen too often unless you're ECing and even then, it's so minimal, it shouldn't "boot you out", causing a fall, unless it's solid ice.

Trying to EC on ice will wreck your nice jacket and pants, though...

If you can, take the camp with Christian and Steve. They are both great freecarvers as well as knowing lots about race style (Chris was one of the Olympic coaches in SLC and Steve coaches the junior national team... Both came up in the CASI system so are equally skilled at freecarve riding / teaching).

[No.2]

Hi Guys. I've been as sick as a dog recently. (Didn't stop me entering a BX comp though :) But still no carving video. So I thought I would at least put up a small old clip on the F2. It's with the old flat front foot stance, crusing with the boots in walk mode.

So you can see who I am at least. http://www.sendspace.com/file/59ln8q

I'll try to get some thing more worthy next week.

Take Care.

Jas.

[D-Sub]

is that vid representative of your current style? If so...on the heel turn it looks like youre "sitting" to where the top half of your body actually leans toward the inside of the turn...

something about it looks awkward, and could perhaps be part of the problem?

[Jack M]

Very nice cross-through transition, however you don't follow through. Notice that as your heelside turn comes around, your right hand ends up behind you. This means the board is rotating under your body, and that your board and body are disconnected. Try driving forward with your right hand throughout the heelside carve, and keep it in sight. Board and body should carve as one.

[D-Sub]

as one should board and body carve .

edited for more yoda-ness

[No.2]

Straight to the nub as usual master Jack. :)

I'm better at a cross under, body down the fall line, feet turning under my body thing than cross through which would explain why a more hip rotated stance may have helped me initially on steeps. And why a more neutral stance demands more body integration from me.

I'll focus more on following where my feet are going.

Actually here's a question do you initiate with your head or your feet?

P.S. Gota rate sendspace.com, totally free, no emails required 300MB max file size and the link stays active for seven days after the last dl.

[Rob Stevens]

Funny you should ask about your head...

We go towards the sides of the hill alot when we ride, but very few people actually look there.

When I watch you come down, you're looking into the fall line the whole time.

That's enough of what looks "wrong"... Here's something to try:

***Lead with your chin.***

This is not the kind of advice your boxing coach will be giving you, but nobody is trying to knock you out here.

It's ok to look down the fall line when you're going into, or in, the fall line, but the rest of the time, look where you're going.

***As you finish a turn, you should be looking to the side of the hill to start the next, then to your apex and then to the exit, or the side again.***

All that misalignment happens right when your board jets away to the left or right and you're still gaping down the mountain.

You're only going down the fall line for a third of the time. Spend the other 2/3rds looking in those other directions.

All the rest of the body stuff will fall into place when the head is doing it's job.

Two other benefits that will come with this:

-Speed control. Your turns will be finished off cleaner and you may actually be able to carve on steeper terrain.

-Safety: When you turn your head into a toe turn from a heel turn, you'll probably spot the mouth breather about to mow you down when you rode in front of him. This one is key to living a healthy life as most expert riders I know "compliment" their blind spot by never taking their eyes off the fall line through the entire heel-toe switch. When you look across the hill, peripherally, you can see up the hill as well and will have a much better idea of who is in your space.