Jack M

Agreed. Your post reminds me of the time in 2000 (2001?) when I first tried a Donek (FC-II 171) at the ECES at Stowe. No damping whatsoever; you could see through the topsheet and fiberglass to the wood core. Just a shape that frigging worked (on the conditions at hand). Blew my mind. I had to have that board. Yes. Vistflex with rear locked and center posts was similar.

Frankly, I didn't enjoy the Allflex for freecarving. It stiffens and dampens the board considerably. I can see why this is good for racing, but for me this robbed a lot of the fun factor out of the board. Maybe the K168 isn't a good board for it, maybe a true SL board would be a better match. @WinterGold certainly does well with that combination.

Great SL board, buy with confidence from skidad! A nice side bonus is that this board actually works great in powder! The wide waist and flare of the nose make this thing float.

That's just rude. Anyone with eyeballs can see that good skiers and ski racers are carving both skis. And if one loses grip, they have the other one. Snowboarders don't have those abilities. All I wanted was for you to try one. No idea why you would prefer instead to get defensive and condescending. I'll be writing a review soon, but here's the TLDR version. All IMHO, tested on Kessler 168s, and from a freecarving perspective: Best all around - Apex X-Plate Best value - Donek AF Most riding comfort - Vistflex with both ends floating, but heavy. Apex close second Racer's choice - Allflex. Stiff and damp.

Snowboarders don't have another foot to put down, and have half the available edge length. This is why we don't race any faster than GS anymore. On an imperfect or bumpy surface, the "suspension" (or partial isolation or whatever you want to call it) of a plate helps for obvious reasons. On a hard surface that is smooth*, the plate improves edge penetration. I think it does this by reducing twist (pedaling) and by its better "footprint" on the board than bare bindings. Yes, I suppose if your boots/bindings/setup/technique are perfect, you might achieve the same edge hold on a smooth surface. But scant few people in the world spend the time to achieve that perfection, or even have the wherewithal. The rest of us can opt for a plate, and get further than we ever would otherwise. *conditions only enjoyed by the first few racers down a course, or by weekend warriors on the first couple runs after opening bell.

Even if one could hone their technique and customize their boots (and how long would that take?) to the point where you were perfectly not pedaling, nose wheelie-ing, or warping the board in any way, you still would not be getting all the benefits of the plate, i.e., the suspension.

I’ll take that bet!

I do but I don't think you have it quite right. On a plate that has both flex and stiffness, when you press down with your front heel this also induces a torque that lifts up on the front axle. You're right that plates do reduce the ability to do this. A perfectly rigid plate would prevent it. I would consider the 5mm Boilerplate to be pretty darn near perfectly rigid. *In general I'm of the opinion that squeezing your knees together in hopes of bending the board into a tighter arc is of limited practicality, because you can only manipulate the section of board between your feet.

No, the plate is an extension of the board, bumpers are not required for the inputs you're describing. The other plates allow some pedaling and decambering without bumpers. The Apex has bumpers just due to the nature of the design and the fact that it is so low to the board.

In theory yes, but I don't try to do that while riding so I can't fully comment on that. If I need a tighter radius, I try to angulate more to tip the board up higher. I will say again the plate will limit efforts to decamber or twist the board with your feet, but not totally.

The function of the Allflex depends on flexing the plate itself. The spring version allows some adjustment of that flex. Also, the Allflex is known to develop cracks in the machined webs on the underside of the plate. It's conceivable the springs are also an effort to address that issue.

That's not at all how Fin intended it to be. He built it to be a perfectly flat plane, reasoning that your stance should stay the same no matter what the board is doing below. (we've evolved since then) I have to wonder if maybe yours was slotted or even defective, as mine was very stiff and consistent with how Fin described it to me.

Ok so my new Kessler 168 with Allflex inserts is now for sale. (keeping my UPM version) I paid full price and put about 7 days on it. Interested? I love this model.

You're correct about the axles, but the plate is not totally rigid. At higher speeds and g-loads, it gets squeezed between the board and the rider's centrifugal force, and flexes. Then it becomes like a leaf spring. It also allows some limited pedaling. This is why the Apex has bumpers - to prevent the plate from crashing into the board and to protect the hardware from overloading. These are the critical advances over the original Boilerplate, which as far as I could tell was like an I-beam. Yes but of course not as much as with a bare board. I felt that the Allflex that I used (longitudinal cut, full plate) was the least malleable.

IMO, the Apex is best for this. It actually follows the board too, although not in the same way.

About 60 and 57 as far as I can tell from Bomber markings.

Testing is going well... loving this FA Auxiliary jacket (@Speed cat) too... pic by @trailertrash

Gotta run, but if every world cup ski racer was using snowblades, yes, you would need to try them in order to form a valid conclusion. Also I didn't say pedaling was useful for carving.

https://www.fis-ski.com/international-ski-federation/news-multimedia/news/claudia-riegler-writes-history-in-bad-gastein

Tried the Apex X-plate today, it was awesome. Its low height and light weight made it virtually disappear. Snow conditions are much better now after a 13" dump, a couple nights of grooming, and a deep freeze, but there is some great firm chalk and I did manage to find a few patches of ice and the plate handled them with aplomb. Spectacular piece of kit, but for a premium. Trying Allflex tomorrow.

DIY liner molding is easy, just don't sit down while cooling. Here are some good instructions: https://www.yyzcanuck.com/liner-molding-a-little-home-cookin/ I like the oven method as opposed to the rice method because the whole liner gets soft and molds both to your foot and to your shell. If you need your shells modified, any good ski shop worth a damn should be able.

No, it would broaden your horizons. I would be entertained, but that's beside the point. Same reasons suspension is good for downhill mountain bikes, and other conveyances. That's a pity. I'd love to see it when you get a chance.

Haven't had a chance to watch the whole thing yet but I thought the race between Lukas Mathies and @nevingalmarini at 6:30 showed an interesting comparison of two different styles. To my eye Nevin takes a more direct line with more slide-lock turns and Lukas takes a rounder, carved line. They look pretty even until Nevin goes off course. Benjamin Karl makes a strong case for slide-lock vs carvey Aaron March at 11:14.

Pretty sure he's resumed making the boards https://www.facebook.com/bromadalife/

All in good fun, my friend. But I don't think you're reading me. I didn't say I found pedaling useful. I don't try to do it while carving. Being placed on a platform that reduces the ability to pedal or eliminates it altogether (in the case of the old BP) is a sudden and dramatic reality check. Pedaling just happens whether you realize it or not. You cannot say for certain whether you do or don't until you try one of these plates. I did address a mechanical point to pedaling - the ability to change edge grip between the front and back regions of the board. Why do we do this? Well I'm not exactly sure, but I think we do it more when we're trying to quickly change edges. I don't deny I dodged your question, but the point of the dodge was that it's pretty pointless to write a dissertation in response to your conjectures about plates when you haven't tried one. Try one, and then we can have a discussion. You cannot say this is a trend, or much else about them, really, without trying one. You'll probably be embarrassed, as I was, to realize how much you're actually pedaling and warping the board. Refusing to try one is a dodge too, wouldn't you say? Even if you don't end up buying one, and I fully expect you won't, it would be a good practice tool to get you out of your comfort zone and expand your horizons. Like the exercises you have prescribed like riding with a bamboo pole or with your boots unbuckled or with your hands behind your back. In fact I don't think you or most people here, including me until yesterday when I got some insight from Jason Patel at Apex, realize exactly how plates work and what happens to them in actual use. They do not simply span the arc of the flexing board. More on that later. Plates are not a placebo. Frankly my mind was blown by how much more edge grip I had on Monday's firm, miserable conditions. More than I have ever felt on any board, ever. John said screw it after 3 runs and left. Typically I would have too. Instead I had more than fun, I had a day for the season, which I will never forget. I had to take breaks on the side of the trail just to process my thoughts. I am actually losing sleep over how excited I am for this new toy. Like that night after Christmas when I got my Atari 2600. This thread is so juicy. It reminds me of this book on experimentation. You've probably read it, but I think you should review it. It's a quick read by the preeminent child psychologist of our time.