Out with hard, in with soft

[Justin A.]

He's not posting because a couple of days ago he got into a season ending car accident and he's tending to his wife, who was also badly hurt in the crash. Try reading the guy's recent posts before jumping to conclusions.

DOH I remembered him trolling about a year ago, I didnt see anything recently. Granted, I didnt look either, but...

I was refering to this thread though, the start and bail thing tipped my troll senses off.

Troll or no troll, I hope his wife is doing better and they both get well soon.

________

Alternative medicine advice

[lonerider]

DOH I remembered him trolling about a year ago, I didnt see anything recently. Granted, I didnt look either, but...

I was refering to this thread though, the start and bail thing tipped my troll senses off.

Troll or no troll, I hope his wife is doing better and they both get well soon.

True true... even given the circumstances, one could be a bit more diplomatic on the subject matter. Simply asking for a stiff carving style freeride board would have been sufficient. No need to challenge the entire hardbooting establishment.

[CarvCanada]

I am progressing towards soft as well... I like the feel better. On days in the resort, I have my 165 Prior with Cateks which carves very well on terrain up to a certain steepness. Beyond that, yes.. it will not have it to be pushed to the point of knees/face skimming ground which is achievable on moderate blue runs. I can't wait to try out an ATV... I have experimented a lot with various stances over the past 2 seasons as well, and when I do get an ATV I will indeed be with forward stance, something like 45/35. I LOVE that stance for carving. Not to say that with more neutral stances I couldn't carve aggressively... it's just especially toesides feel wrong when you have to stand tall in the apex so your knees don't get in the way of the snow and that screws up the flow. Freeriding I'll be at 24/0 though.

I hope to make SES eventually, I'll be rocking in soft boots, and then we'll see if people can type general statements about soft boots :)

[Erik J]

:D :D ....

:D ...

jt, you just love to stir that pot.:)

[sic t 2]

Well, JT is no troll. Its the real deal. JT is a is a top notch hardbooter, right up there with any I have ever met. Probably a style like Zcarver. Low, down really low and dragging all the time. Same enthusiasm too. A pisser to ride with.

But this soft boot thing is the real deal too. Its utterly amazing to watch what he can do on them. And yes, he has the steeps too.

Its funny. I'm probably to blame for all this. I met JT when he was on his RT and I was in softies on my Burton Balance. We got to riding together that day and he got to taking a liking to my switch carving and started asking about the soft boot gear. I told him flat out: "I wouldn't do that if I were you". You can see he didn't listen.

But I have to agree with Eric. He sure likes to "stir this pot" !!!

Sic

[D-Sub]

Its utterly amazing to watch what he can do on them. And yes, he has the steeps too.

steeps?

on the east coast?

[D-Sub]

He's not posting because a couple of days ago he got into a season ending car accident and he's tending to his wife, who was also badly hurt in the crash. Try reading the guy's recent posts before jumping to conclusions.

uh...lonerider...the post is from 12 hours ago as I type this.

its definitely a troll post, intended to say "piss off" to plateriders, which is just stupid on a forum that focuses on such.

the statement about making benches out of the boards...the intent was clear.

that said, if the car wreck thing is for real, thoughts go out to anyone injured!

[D-Sub]

No need to challenge the entire hardbooting establishment.

zackly.

so jt...if you heal soon, or even if next season, have a look at steepwater. seriously.

[tufty]

Most of the members of this community have more than one tool.

I have a soft tool and a hard tool (and quite a few of those long thin tools that come in pairs, but that's irrelevant). Although the soft tool is more user-friendly, it's all floppy and wobbly around the edges, and having a rigid tool impresses the girls more. So I only ever get my soft tool out when there's nobody looking. Unfortunately, my hard tool is, although impressively stiff and very good at what it does, somewhat shorter than other forum member's tools, which leads to tool envy.

simon

[Guest jschal01]

It's interesting that the troll stirred up not amusement or regret, but initially just a lot of hate. I think people may be defensive because there are so few hardbooters in general, but maybe think about how to gain "converts," and how to treat "apostates." Particularly apostates who HAVE ridden with ErikJ and can ride, period.

Letting your riding do the talking is a good place to start.

People who drive Ferraris well don't have to hate on Subarus.

[jtslalom]

To reply to Jack, yeah I've ridden with Erik J at Mountain Creek quite a few times.

Replying to Snow Boarder, my soft setup is 45 back, and 42 front. I have ride soft bindings and Snow Jam boots.

Replying to the board that will by made into a bench, it is a white Rossignal Race Vas 166. The RT will be spared becauase I love it and will never give it up. The next hard deck I get will probably be another RT.

Reply to some others, hard riding is great and it always will be. My four year old daughter will some day be on plates but she will also learn how to carve awesome turns on a frestyle deck. If you think for one second that it can't be done on a soft board, you're kidding yourselves. Many guys can rip on softboards and carve better than some guys riding hard decks. It doesn't happen alot but it does happen.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I know guys can rip turns on soft boards but my question is, why would you want to? Are current soft boot set-ups really comfortable and safe at the sorts of speed/force we like to generate? If, like me, you don't care in the slightest about pipe or park, is there any reason to be on softies? These are serious questions, not rhetorical - I haven't ridden softies in years and have no idea what the current tech is up for.

At 45/40 you're at the same angles I am in my hard boots, btw. I really hate how soft boot riders look in their more normal stance angles, especially on heel sides.

[D-Sub]

If you think for one second that it can't be done on a soft board, you're kidding yourselves. Many guys can rip on softboards and carve better than some guys riding hard decks.

the thing is, no one ever said this isnt true. We've had this "discussion" many, many times already, and have seen pics and heard anecdotes about dudes ripping carves in softboots. d b has some pics of him rocking softboots, and apparently Vin Q can really rip too...

the way you came off was like we're all stupid for riding hardboots (even if some of us are only part time) or that our skills arent truly up to par if we prefer the feeling of a rigid interface.

so...nothing new, and definitely a better way to preach it.

[D-Sub]

It's interesting that the troll stirred up not amusement or regret, but initially just a lot of hate. I think people may be defensive because there are so few hardbooters in general, but maybe think about how to gain "converts," and how to treat "apostates." Particularly apostates who HAVE ridden with ErikJ and can ride, period.

Letting your riding do the talking is a good place to start.

People who drive Ferraris well don't have to hate on Subarus.

its not WHAT was said but HOW, man. the "Im making benches out of the boards" thing implied taht theyre just junk...

the last comment...ferraris vs subarus...in this case it was the "subaru" driver ragging on the "ferrari"...

neither way is necessary.

[garyj]

Subarus are better in the snow than ferraris anyway, not that this comment really has anything to do with this post---I just had to say it anyway.

More to the point, jtslalom's boards probably would have been put to better use as a seat, even when he was riding them. I've seen some guys carve pretty hard in softies. More power to them.

As for all the rest who are dedicated to the disipline of carving, this means one less disgruntled snowboarder sitting in the middle of the run that we have to dig trenches around. :D

[Guest jschal01]

I know guys can rip turns on soft boards but my question is, why would you want to? Are current soft boot set-ups really comfortable and safe at the sorts of speed/force we like to generate? If, like me, you don't care in the slightest about pipe or park, is there any reason to be on softies? These are serious questions, not rhetorical - I haven't ridden softies in years and have no idea what the current tech is up for.

At 45/40 you're at the same angles I am in my hard boots, btw. I really hate how soft boot riders look in their more normal stance angles, especially on heel sides.

Well, Stephen Koch uses both, though he uses AT boots for his plate setup which are really equivalent to a stiff softboot setup. He seems to still prefer the plate setup for "extreme" terrain. Marco Siffredi, to take another example, I believe always used straps. But, do you do a lot of drops in your freeriding? If not, the edge control you get in a hardboot setup is going to be superior to the edge control in softboots, particularly as regards hip displacement, so for all-mountain freeriding that stays primarily on the snow I can't say you'd have a performance-driven reason to try softboots. This assumes proper choice of board, bindings, etc. to aid with terrain absoprtion somewhere in the system. FIS boardercross is in some ways a good test of this, the hardboot guys clearly have an advantage in terms of line though are disadvantaged elsewhere.

Now, "are current soft boot set-ups really comfortable and safe at the sorts of speed/force we like to generate?" Yes, and yes, though for funky feet plastic shells are still easier to fit. Again using BX as an analogy, was Seth Wescott safe at the same speeds as the 2d place finisher? Are "Big Mountain" Jeremy Jones or Victoria Jealouse [sp?], who used to ride plates, hurt or endangered by riding straps at high speeds in Alaska? If they were told they had to ride PGS in a week, they'd both probably be back in plates, though.

Feel is a very different and subjective variable. I've spent a good bit of this season riding 15/-15, with a very wide stance, on a symmetrical twin. That feels much more like skating or surfing. Even riding forward angles with the same softboots starts to feel much more like skiing, in a good, athletic sense.

Now, in terms of appearance, it sounds like you ride around a lot of bad softbooters. Candidly, the average hardbooter I see in the Northeast counterrotates his or her turns around, is on too much board, and looks very awkward. (A bit different in terms of percentages at a few places out west.) Shaun White rides duck most of the time, I think his heelsides look good. :) Don't let the average rider define the equipment's performance.

I personally just don't get the high angles in softboots. I've run both Intuition alpine liners and ZipFits in softboots for more support, and still don't like to go out of the 30s with them. But, it works for some people. Vin Q also runs really high, to each their own.

D-Sub: the o.p. was definitely tweaking people a bit, but he was not ragging on hardboot equipment, just saying he had as much if not more fun in softboots than hard. And, a lot of people did respond very aggressively with a "good riddance" tone. If they want to make hardbooting some sort of secret-handshake thing that's even smaller than it is now, that's probably a good way to go. Personally, telling him to go have fun in the softboots, even ride duck and slide some rails, but to remember to come back when he needs to scratch the itch for seriious Gs, might have been a better way to boost the sport. I've had skiers tell me, in all seriousness, that "it's a good time to come back" to skiing, for instance, because of the modern gear. They are secure in their sport, they don't hold it against me that I prefer to board. Actually, the Line Elizabeths do look awfully sweet :D

[Guest Marty]

Thinking of doing the same... tring to ride in the mid-west, on plates feels like a goat-rope. * sigh *

[Neil Gendzwill]

But, do you do a lot of drops in your freeriding?

No. I'm in the bumps a lot, though. Love 'em.

Now, in terms of appearance, it sounds like you ride around a lot of bad softbooters.

How do you avoid the ass-hanging-out look on heelsides? I've seen my fair share of talented softbooters in duck stances and they just looked awkward, even as they were railing the turns out. Now, throw a tabletop in front of those guys and all of a sudden they look pretty damn good.

[gdboytyler]

Maybe JT mostly likes to ride blue runs and that is why he will mostly stick to softboot carving. He does admit that a hard setup is preferable for steep runs with hard snow.

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=8413

[Guest jschal01]

No. I'm in the bumps a lot, though. Love 'em.How do you avoid the ass-hanging-out look on heelsides? I've seen my fair share of talented softbooters in duck stances and they just looked awkward, even as they were railing the turns out. Now, throw a tabletop in front of those guys and all of a sudden they look pretty damn good.

I prefer to think of it as cowboy steeze, as opposed to ass-hanging-out. :)

Seriously, without pics it's hrd to tell if we're on the same page in terms of good turns, but as you say they were railing their turns I have a feeling we are and it's just an aesthetic judgment here. To me, if the upper body is serving as a kind of anchor that the lower body is riding dynamically around, this looks good regardless of specific configuration. I also find that toesides FEEL more awkward when riding duck, as the whole arch-back, hips forward thing just does not feel that grcaeful, not to mention wierd to be doing in public.

Bumps are a great test of all-mountain riding ability, and one where I'm convinced that an appropriate hardboot setup, or stiff-as-heck softboot setup, is the right way to go. It's also something that's been abandoned by virtually all hardbooters...if someone were to judge by the equipment SEEN in the bumps, they'd conclude that duck stance, moderate stiffness softboots is the way to go there, even though good bump skiers are going with boots that are much stiffer than pure park or hucking boots. But yeah, if bumps are a focus can't say as there is a reason to switch. Also if you're dialed for bumps you are by default pretty dialed for powder/crud/variable snow as well.

Gdboytyler: Probably 95% of the posters here can't carve anything other than a groomed blue run. Are you carving on runs that require a winch cat to groom? Are you taking your plates at speed through cut-up snow? Glass houses and all that.

[Dr D]

I know guys can rip turns on soft boards but my question is, why would you want to? Are current soft boot set-ups really comfortable and safe at the sorts of speed/force we like to generate? If, like me, you don't care in the slightest about pipe or park, is there any reason to be on softies? These are serious questions, not rhetorical - I haven't ridden softies in years and have no idea what the current tech is up for.

At 45/40 you're at the same angles I am in my hard boots, btw. I really hate how soft boot riders look in their more normal stance angles, especially on heel sides.

When I ride soft I ride 54 -50 angles. I was skeptical myself on returning to the sport but soft boots are decades better than they used to be. I have a pair of vans with heat mold liners that are great for soft days and are supportive enough to rip. I also can't stand the duck look or the butt hanging out. I have found that with forward angles and the right board people watching assume I am on an alpine setup. I recently had a liftie look at me shocked and say I have never seen softies on a race board before. that is interesting only because I was riding a "normal" looking directional board at the time not an alpine specific board. The carve was doing the talking obviously. It is possible it is fun and its a great way to extend the day. When my old quads are screaming at me to quit I switch into softies and let my calves do the work for the restof the day

[Dr D]

I

Gdboytyler: Probably 95% of the posters here can't carve anything other than a groomed blue run. Are you carving on runs that require a winch cat to groom? Are you taking your plates at speed through cut-up snow? Glass houses and all that.

Gotta agree with the man. ITs a whole different world once you lose the corduroy. The straight up and down with bumps to your neck won't take a really stiff and forward stance. Wider board, lower angles and 3 buckle boots make it doable. very stiff soft boots with 45 -50 degree angles work well for me too. I basically put the toes and heels on the edges and have both facing forward. You get lots of edge control and more room to flex the bumps.

If you are in an area where the steep includes narrow runs or lots of trees the lower angles are also a must.

All mountain means all mountain and some of our fave gear is just not at all suited for allmountain use.

You should try to stay on the edge the carve will go offroad if you are geared up for it.

Being able to look over the front of the board is a plus though the duck footers don't know what they are missing.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I ride 45/40 with old Raichle 224s which are pretty soft. Being that I ride in Alberta/BC and like to ride the whole mountain, overly stiff/narrow setups are not happening. I'd be bored stiff if I limited myself to the groomed.

[gdboytyler]

Gdboytyler: Probably 95% of the posters here can't carve anything other than a groomed blue run. Are you carving on runs that require a winch cat to groom? Are you taking your plates at speed through cut-up snow? Glass houses and all that.

The steepest runs that I've seen groomed are black diamond runs at Mammoth, and yes I can carve those on an alpine board.

And yes, I ride hard boots and plates in cut up snow, powder, bumps, etc. But in those conditions, I'll ride an all-mountain board. Either an O-sin 4807 or Burton Alp.

[Guest jschal01]

The steepest runs that I've seen groomed are black diamond runs at Mammoth, and yes I can carve those on an alpine board.

And yes, I ride hard boots and plates in cut up snow, powder, bumps, etc. But in those conditions, I'll ride an all-mountain board. Either an O-sin 4807 or Burton Alp.

First, good-on-ya for riding plates in all conditions. If more people were doing the same, hardboots would not be viewed as so specialized.

In terms of steepness of groomed runs, I'd said "require a winch cat" for a reason, and will leave it at that. I don't doubt that you could carve steeper runs, particularly since you're riding bumps, though. But, say, Cornice Bowl people carve in softboots all the time.