Jack: Question on Rotation turn and push pull method

[Allee]

Maybe this is just me, but I can read all I like and it never translates that way on the hill. I understand what I'm trying to accomplish, but it seems like I'm much more "touchy feely". Turns out I learn a whole heap better with snow under my feet and someone to watch.

Needanswer, hook up with the TC crew. Nobody is going to diss you (we were all there once), and a good carver will be able to tell you in two minutes flat what you're doing wrong. Coming from experience - save yourself a lot of time and frustration and go ride! ;)

[joecarve]

Needanswer, hook up with the TC crew. Nobody is going to diss you (we were all there once), and a good carver will be able to tell you in two minutes flat what you're doing wrong. Coming from experience - save yourself a lot of time and frustration and go ride! ;)

Yeah, don't make us hunt you down...we will find you. :D Seriously, you'll eventually hack it out on your own, but it's way less painful with a few pointers on the hill...

joe...

[astrokel]

Boy, was I wrong... The two sequences are opposite. Take a look at the backside arm (the right arm)... like I said... fos :o

[Jack M]

Take a look at the nose of your Swoard. I believe you'll see the sidecut radius actually extends up the nose scoop rather than ending at the scoop initiation point. This is what gives you that feeling of quick engagement.

aren't all boards built that way?

[astrokel]

Take a look at the nose of your Swoard. I believe you'll see the sidecut radius actually extends up the nose scoop rather than ending at the scoop initiation point. This is what gives you that feeling of quick engagement.

I think that's true but that performance description was for my Incline. I needed a bit (just a little but enough to notice) more umphh in order to initiate the turn on the Swoard. The Swoard has an interesting shape that will be really fun to get to know.

[Jack M]

No, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that "most" boards are not designed/built with the nose scoop containing some of the SCR.

I'm quite certain most boards SCR ends in the nose scoop, off the ground. You wouldn't want the sidecut to end on the ground (as part of the running length) because the curve necessary to maintain tangency between sidecut and nose curves would mess up the ends of the sidecut.

[D-Sub]

this has gone way too far for me. kinda proves my point. SO much talk...for some of us it just doesnt work, like allee said...and I think Carp would agree too.

but it sounds like the OP is an analytical type, so discussing it should work out well for him or her.

it takes all sorts!

[Guest needanswer]

I wouldn't bother going to higher angles while on soft boots. It doesn't help you carve turns, and it makes maneouverability more difficult. 33/30 is plenty steep enough.

wouldn't higher angles help me angulate better? especially on heelside

I think that concentrating on "rotation" tends to make people use their upper body to swing their lower body and board around. That can be a fluid and fun way to ride, but it won't help you learn to carve a turn. Actually I'd say that it tends to prevent you from simply committing to the edge and letting it bring you around..

without rotation , do I start a turn purely on inclination and angulation?

I agree with the EC advice here - align yourself with your binding angles. But the EC'ers emphasis on rotation means they are rarely aligned with their binding angles, which means they are putting a rotational (ie, skidding) force on their board...

seems like general consensus for 30-40ish angeles , I should align with bindings.

Yeah, it's safe, but as I said, the sweet spot for getting it right is fairly small. You just have to keep trying. You also need a little bit of speed, but on a soft-boot board it's easy to have more speed than the board can carve with.

sorry, beginner question, why would soft board have more speed than carve, is it because of the lack of side cut?

If you have to point the board 45 degrees down the hill before you're comfortable getting on the downhill edge, I'd move to a flatter slope where you never have to get your board more perpendicular to the fall line than 45 degrees in order to keep your speed under control when carving.

yeah, I think I need to go back to green slopes to learn.

[D-Sub]

sorry, beginner question, why would soft board have more speed than carve, is it because of the lack of side cut?

he meant that its easy to pick up too much speed for a standard softboot setup to be effective. theyre not always designed for really railing at moderate + speeds

[Guest needanswer]

Welcome to Bomber! Sorry to be 18th to reply to questions directed at me, I ran out of time yesterday.

wow, that's dedication. no apologies necessary. you guys are so helpful and welcoming to newcomers

Do whichever way works better for you. At 40 degrees, I'd guess you might do better to ride with your body aligned with your binding angles, but maybe not. As for your head alignment - I don't know anybody who doesn't ride with their head looking where they're going.

got it, torso should be with the binding, head should be looking at where I'm going , and when carving should be pointed to nose.

however, with this alignment where should by hands be? I think you guys ride with hands in front and shoulder perpendicular to the board.

thanks for all the help

[Guest needanswer]

I'm quite certain most boards SCR ends in the nose scoop, off the ground. You wouldn't want the sidecut to end on the ground (as part of the running length) because the curve necessary to maintain tangency between sidecut and nose curves would mess up the ends of the sidecut.

what's SCR, is that side cut radius?

To engage the downhill , edge do you guys aim the beginning of the SCR at the snow? is that a good mental note. if so, is that why you need to incline the board to where the SCR begins.

[Baka Dasai]

wouldn't higher angles help me angulate better? especially on heelside

Yes, that's true, but it's not worth the extra problems you get at high angles in soft boots.

without rotation , do I start a turn purely on inclination and angulation?

Yes. The following is a massively simplified explanation, but all you have to do is get the board on edge and it'll start turning. Inclination and angulation will get it on edge. Your upper body doesn't have to do anything except balance itself over that edge.

sorry, beginner question, why would soft board have more speed than carve, is it because of the lack of side cut?

The small side cut radius and the lack of stiffness make it so the board has a "top speed" for carving that is going to be quite low.

There used to a be a lot of soft-boot carvers at my old mountain, and on any run steeper than an average blue a close inspection of their trench showed that it was really a long series of much shorter radius carves as their board hooked up, then unhooked, then hooked up, then unhooked, maybe a 100 times in one turn. At the speed they were going their board wanted to carve an impossibly tight turn that would have involved the board bending so much it would break, and so instead of that happening the board would skip out of its trench almost as soon as it started, and then start another, and then another, and then another. A series of micro-carves. You could even see the board doing this - the nose and tail appeared to flap as they engaged, disengaged, engaged, disengaged etc.

[James Ong]

take golf for example...there's now a new breed of golfers raised with the best instructors, the best equipment, etc...and their golf swings look robotic, mechanical, soulless. Seems like a lot of asian americans try to play this way...missing the point entirely...the fact that effort is a matter of personal expression. If youre just going through the motions...there's little joy in that ultimately.

D-sub,

I think you'r confusing personality with technique. A lot of the Asian players are just not comfortable in front of the camera and are very stoic and businesslike in their play. Annika sorenstam has often been accused of being boring, but it is always commented that she hits the ball straighter than anybody. Maybe you prefer golfers to perform end zone like celebrations after every shot made?

Tiger is another one always accused by the media of being a robot and not willing to say anything other than all the worn out sport cliches. He's boring but stays out of trouble by keeping his mouth shut.

I'm no golfer but i figure a swing is a swing, it's either right or wrong, playing with "joy" is not necessary and can often look like grandstanding.

Rotation, however, is totally unnecessary in my opinion. Why? 1 - you can turn and carve a snowboard very well without doing it; 2 - it's an extra movement to coordinate with everything else that's going on; 3 - it can upset your balance. So why do it? I know that the EC guys are instructors and have taught hundreds of people this technique. That doesn't mean it's better, it's just different, and I disagree with it. But that's what makes the world go round. I was once an instructor too and successfully taught hundreds of people without it.

I think you'r missing the main point of the EC technique, the rotation is done to provide more edge pressure. This might seem like an extra and unnecessary movement but is important because of the "EXTREME" inclination involved. The upper body rotation which also rotates the hips toward the turn and the pushing action of the legs is what allows the rider to hold the edge.

[D-Sub]

D-sub,

I think you'r confusing personality with technique. A lot of the Asian players are just not comfortable in front of the camera and are very stoic and businesslike in their play. Annika sorenstam has often been accused of being boring, but it is always commented that she hits the ball straighter than amybody. Maybe you prefer golfers to perform end zone like celebrations after every shot made?

ha! that would...well...NO.

I was trying to drop this statement...as already a couple have intimated that it was racist, which it wasnt.

just for the record though...Tiger's swing is anything but mechanical, and he gets pretty wild when he's playin well. Off the course he comes off as pretty boring, but who cares!

my whole point was that without STYLE there's no point in doing something. Thats just my opinion. PLUS..."style" is anything...how you do something is "your style" so in essence everyone has style :)

[kipstar]

D-Sub; I remember your video, and I am curious how much rotation you think you do or don't do...I have saved it and while it isn't with me at the moment, I recall at least some rotation, not nearly as static as that photo sequence earlier in this thread... and at least in part that degree of rotation makes for a more stylee ride IMHO than the non rotation technique.

Regarding effectiveness, well, based on the extremely variable snow of NZ, I'd say that the rotation technique for me anyway is more stable, but that is what I was taught; I thought I rotated a LOT until I rode with James Ong and saw EC style upclose.

For me, the push pull is a little different to the cross through for the point noted earlier, the push goes to the fall line, then the pull takes you back out of the turn then flows into the push again as the edge changes, all pretty smooth, whereas the cross through the push goes through to the end of the turn, and the pull is as you change edges, and in my case is a drop straight into the new edge - that is the way i was taught way back when. This is combined with the rotation whereas the cross under is the weight change with no rotation.

I reread the article, and this is pretty much along the lines of what I understand, so for me the push pull is different in terms of timing.

I still think you get at least some extra 'turn' from loading the body up with rotation, but then again the racers ride with no rotation and it seems quicker, so I am in the Canuck camp - I may indeed be full of it!

[D-Sub]

D-Sub; I remember your video, and I am curious how much rotation you think you do or don't do...I have saved it and while it isn't with me at the moment, I recall at least some rotation, not nearly as static as that photo sequence earlier in this thread... and at least in part that degree of rotation makes for a more stylee ride IMHO than the non rotation technique.

Kip

the video is at http://www.bastardbreaks.com/downloads/vids/CarvingVid.wmv

I messed around in MovieMaker a little...set it to one of my tracks, and put some stupid stuff in there...just for fun. Thats my dog Avalanche

as for rotation...in all honesty man...I really don't analyze my riding that much. I know I have inherent flaws, and when I watch the video I see a few things that look like they might be counterproductive, but "rotation' "push pull" "cross under" "cross through"...they all just sound too analytical to me...

I snowboard for fun, and I have plenty of fun at the level Ive been at in the past. OF COURSE I have room for improvement Im sure, but Im ok with where Im at.

one thing I remember though, is that someone said "my style" was close to the EC style and I just sorta laughed because ive never really tried to develop any certain style. just happened. plus, my first season on a carver was 94/95 and "Extreme Carving" didnt even exist. I remember being called a "Euro Fag" though.

[kipstar]

thanks; I had the previous version with no soundtrack....

I wouldn't say you are quite EC; that is James Ong territory; but definitely some rotation going on there; looks more like nice cruising to me....

HOwever, don't worry we will all call you eurofag, so you can relive your past glories :-)

Euro Euro Euro

fag fag fag

Euro Euro Euro

fag fag fag

Euro

fag

Euro

fag

Euro Euro Euro

fag fag fag

[philfell]

Don't try to up your stance angles in soft boots. You won't get the lateral support you will need.

Get the job done with the legs don't try to start the turn with your upper body.

A snowboard is designed to carve. ALL modern snowboards will carve if you let them do their job. This applys even to the softest jib/rail board out there. It takes imput from the rider to make a board skid. In order to learn how to carve eliminate all the movements you make to make the board skid, then add dynamics from there.

[Jack M]

I think you'r missing the main point of the EC technique, the rotation is done to provide more edge pressure.

Really? How does it do that?

[Guest needanswer]

kip , d-sub ,

nice vid.

The small side cut radius and the lack of stiffness make it so the board has a "top speed" for carving that is going to be quite low.

so, if two boards are shaped exactly the same, the stiffer one will have a higher "top speed" for carving?

I have two boards that are quite similar in size/shape at my disposal.

should I try to learn on the wet noodle on greens then move to the stiffer board on blue runs?

[D-Sub]

thanks; I had the previous version with no soundtrack....

I wouldn't say you are quite EC; that is James Ong territory;

no no..that that I was laying them down like...well...personally Ive only seen three people do it well. Crobar and P&J...but just that the way I ride is more along those lines than the style professed here.

cruising is fun.

[James Ong]

Really? How does it do that?

The benefit to over rotating i believe is that it gets the hips turned towards the direction of the turn. This seems counter intuitive since it would appear that you are tourqueing the nose of the board into the snow. I don't think so though since considering the position of the bindings on the board this effect should be minimal. Maybe this adds enough twist to improve edge hold.

I think the hips do more work than is commonly thought , otherwise we wouldn't tell freestylers to turn thier hips towards the front of the board?

The push part of the equation also seems screwy, but i think the trick here is that the edge is alredy set and rotation pretty much done before any pushing is performed.

Sorry if my description is bit lacking , maybe someone else can put into better words what has to be felt to be believed.

...but just that the way I ride is more along those lines than the style professed here.

I think your right , nice footage. Lots of STYLE

[philfell]

The benefit to over rotating i believe is that it gets the hips turned towards the direction of the turn. This seems counter intuitive since it would appear that you are tourqueing the nose of the board into the snow. I don't think so though since considering the position of the bindings on the board this effect should be minimal. Maybe this adds enough twist to improve edge hold.

I think the hips do more work than is commonly thought , otherwise we wouldn't tell freestylers to turn thier hips towards the front of the board?

Am I misreading this??? Who is telling freestylers to turn their hips towards the front of the board? Whoever it is needs a lesson in basic human movement. The hips do way more than commonly thought, this is where you get your power from. It's up to you to use this power effectively of to waste it, or not harness it at all. This twist actually decreases edge pressure on a heelside turn. Depending on your angles the effect will be more drastic, higher angles less negative effect. Lower angles more negative effect.

Why would you want to start your turn with the body part furthest away from you snowbaord?

[D-Sub]

I think your right , nice footage. Lots of STYLE

HA! I dunno about that. I got rousted all last year for not being "dynamic"

:)

the rest of this though...I really have no say...Ive never analyzed much in snowboarding. I realize where that could be a problem, no doubt...but I dont compete, never will...just ride for fun, and I have plenty of fun and can get around on most terrain, and usually dont look like a total kook doin it, so I figure Im ok.

style is subjective, innit?

[James Ong]

This twist actually decreases edge pressure on a heelside turn. Depending on your angles the effect will be more drastic, higher angles less negative effect. Lower angles more negative effect.

I'm not arguing that push-pull ( and lots of rotation)is the better way to go, but there is no denying that it works. When i do turns with less rotation it dosen't work worth a damn so i have to believe that something good is going on.

Before someone brings it up , maybe it only works in hero snow eh? :o

In that case i am the luckiest guy in the world because 99% of the conditions i ride in MUST be hero snow.

Again i don't argue that the commonly accepted way of turning is not the better way . Be open minded though, it wasn't that long ago that people thought Bode Miller was nuts to try to ski the way he did.

Here is an exerpt of an analysis of Bode's style.

CONCLUSION

Because his slalom skiing sometimes looks awkward and unbalanced, I expected in my analysis to find many aspects of Bode's technique inefficient and risky, and not for general consumption. Indeed there are some moves involving excessive rotations and counter-rotations to question. Also, in weighting his tails to to keep his skis tracking cleanly coming out of turns he will sometimes wait too long to get forward for the next turn. I suspect that this is not so much an ingrained technical flaw as it is a lack of slalom training due to multi-discipline time constraints.

Still, much of the unconventional in Bode's technique, like:

Tilting in at the top of open-gate turns,

Putting down the inside hand when necessary to help find balance at big lean angles,

Coming back on his skis at turns' end to get out of the turns cleanly, and limiting extension,

Running many vertical combinations with feet less than two feet apart.

are part of what makes him fast.

Each of these moves runs counter to some widely accepted coaching dogma and it's tempting to suggest that we should be teaching every kid or Masters racer to ski slalom like Bode. But few have Bode's strength and agility, and it's probably best to first learn a somewhat more balanced and reliable technique before experimenting with some Bode-like moves.

Keep your mind open. Coaches seldom, if ever, discover something new that's fast, and we've set back U.S. racing before by squashing funny looking technique and/or equipment that we should have analyzed and used intelligently, in order to stay ahead of the competition. Remember. You don't win the World Cup with a lot that's wrong. We should be finding and using the best from Bode.